TTC Electric Buses

[doug_oak]

11 hours ago, wil9402 said:

The original RFP and contract award was for 310 buses. Once federal funding was secured, the contract was amended to add an additional 30 for a total of 340 buses between New Flyer and Nova. Nova's press release mentions that their contract is a base order of 124 with a potential for 12 more, bringing Nova's total to 136. That would mean 18 additional New Flyers were added bringing their total to 204.

Thank you for that clarification, much appreciated.

[Cityflyer]

Recently it seems most or all of the 60 electric buses don't come out past rush hours and rarely go out on weekends.

If this is a representative of the electric buses as a whole (doesn't matter which model), then getting 340 units of these starting later this year is too much for the TTC. Imagine if these 340 units can only go out during rush hours. That'll severely restrict bus allocation for service.

[Mar_AC_23]

Since this order is going to multiple divisions, they will most likely be used on peak runs anyways for the most part. If the TTC goes fully electric, then the spare ratio would most likely be increased.

[FlyerD901]

49 minutes ago, Cityflyer said:

Recently it seems most or all of the 60 electric buses don't come out past rush hours and rarely go out on weekends.

If this is a representative of the electric buses as a whole (doesn't matter which model), then getting 340 units of these starting later this year is too much for the TTC. Imagine if these 340 units can only go out during rush hours. That'll severely restrict bus allocation for service.

I do see arrow puts their flyers out on weekends. There was a time when I would see a few out on weekends. 

[bus_7246]

52 minutes ago, Cityflyer said:

Recently it seems most or all of the 60 electric buses don't come out past rush hours and rarely go out on weekends.

If this is a representative of the electric buses as a whole (doesn't matter which model), then getting 340 units of these starting later this year is too much for the TTC. Imagine if these 340 units can only go out during rush hours. That'll severely restrict bus allocation for service.

Out of Mt Dennis, 12 potatoes are parked as service holds. The rest aren’t favoured by the operators. It would make more sense to put mileage on the newer fleet than the nuisance of a bus that barely kneels with a high step

[Articulated]

1 hour ago, Cityflyer said:

Recently it seems most or all of the 60 electric buses don't come out past rush hours and rarely go out on weekends.

If this is a representative of the electric buses as a whole (doesn't matter which model), then getting 340 units of these starting later this year is too much for the TTC. Imagine if these 340 units can only go out during rush hours. That'll severely restrict bus allocation for service.

The issue goes down to how TTC schedules runs. All runs that are out for weekday midday service are also in service during both AM and PM peaks - so that requires midday buses to be out for a minimum of 14 hours. This is beyond the range of the original 60 eBuses, so therefore on weekdays they're largely restricted to rush-hour runs (or very occasionally, evening runs that stay out from 3pm until midnight).

Because service on weekends peaks in the afternoon, there are more runs that are out for 7-9 hours (from 10am-12 noon until 6-7pm), and these can accommodate eBuses.

Until TTC starts rearranging their schedules to allow for eBuses to get topped up during the service day (either on-street, at a station, or running them back to the garages), you'll continue to see diesel-only service during the weekdays.

[ZümmyZüm]

10 hours ago, Articulated said:

The issue goes down to how TTC schedules runs. All runs that are out for weekday midday service are also in service during both AM and PM peaks - so that requires midday buses to be out for a minimum of 14 hours. This is beyond the range of the original 60 eBuses, so therefore on weekdays they're largely restricted to rush-hour runs (or very occasionally, evening runs that stay out from 3pm until midnight).

Because service on weekends peaks in the afternoon, there are more runs that are out for 7-9 hours (from 10am-12 noon until 6-7pm), and these can accommodate eBuses.

Until TTC starts rearranging their schedules to allow for eBuses to get topped up during the service day (either on-street, at a station, or running them back to the garages), you'll continue to see diesel-only service during the weekdays.

The solution is more runs will become garage to garage unless they put charging ports at key terminals. XE40s can easily do 11 hour runs but you're running low, say 16-20.% As buses get larger batteries over time they'll be able to extend the range but you're unlikely to see weekdays runs or even split operator runs 

[Xtrazsteve]

When they get a decent amount of buses, they'll have to write the schedule different. They'll probably try it out with a few routes first. It'll be similar to the 927 schedule were all runs will not complete the entire day. The problem is these buses need considerable amount of time to charge unlike filling up a tank and they can't charge all the days during the day were electricity demands are high. There is simply not enough electricity from the grid if everyone is charging their car in the day when the public adopts more electric cars while everyone is turning their AC on in these increasing hot summers. 

I don't know what the spare ratio would be like, more like a secondary fleet for PM/evenings. Fleet management will be different that what it is today. The problem is they can't have buses coming back with 15% on a normal day cause cold, rainy and hot days affect battery usage significantly specially with AC. They need to account for those variance in the schedule. 

[T3G]

Would scheduling more garage to garage runs not place an insane burden on the fleet requirements and the number of drivers required to operate them?

[Cityflyer]

So basically if logic rules, they should stop ordering more e buses after this 2nd batch of 340. Go back to hybrids for the next batch which most likely is artics to replace the LFSAs.

[GZ6113PHEV5]

I assume the electric buses might be optimal for short-distanced and slow routes so given these they can at least handle midday service? I remembered Birchmount flyers once did route 64 without returning back to the garage after morning rush for charging until like 7 in the evening. The upcoming ones got range upgraded too.

And I feel like the first 60s are basically just trial stuffs because they are not significant to the fleet (like the 10 byds) plus they did not replace any buses. Only a third of them in service is what common for most of the time. Diesel/hybrid buses can easily replace them if they have issues. But this time the large batch is going to replace the fleet to some extent. Maybe an alternating schedule in a day will be good for the electric buses as they can’t definitely handle a full day. 

[Ed T.]

The question is how much of the electrical use is for propulsion, and how much is for HVAC. In an electric car, HVAC in cold weather can take close to half the kW required. So it becomes a matter of how long you can stay out, whether or not you are moving.

I would imagine that a bus, with its doors opening and closing often, would be worse. Of course if there are fossil-fuelled auxiliary heaters, that would take the load off the battery capacity.

ETA: here's what the TTC has found so far. I assume that in summer, A/C is running, which usually requires less power. But it does not tell us % of power used for HVAC as opposed to propulsion either way.

 

[Chris W]

So now that spring is here, what are the chances that 3750-3759 (BYD K9Ms) start returning to passenger service? I'm guessing the chances are slim?

[Highway of Heroes]

2 hours ago, Chris W said:

So now that spring is here, what are the chances that 3750-3759 (BYD K9Ms) start returning to passenger service? I'm guessing the chances are slim?

BYD are already in passenger service as of right now.

[wheelindealin]

3 hours ago, Chris W said:

So now that spring is here, what are the chances that 3750-3759 (BYD K9Ms) start returning to passenger service? I'm guessing the chances are slim?

They've been in service all year so far. It's just they are only relegated to 67 in the mornings, and 954, 54, 34 and sometimes 88 in the afternoon.

[D4-N173]

TTC seems too conservative about the operation of its 60 3700s. Even BYDs can run for about 12 hours without charging if heat isn't needed. When one of them operated the 513 route at the end of September it ran from 8am to 7pm. But since BYDs don't have the auxiliary heater so I guess that's why they are not active now in cold weather. But Flyers and Proterras have it (correct me if this is wrong), yet they are still largely restricted to peak operations. 
The only reason I could think of is the high spare ratio of diesel buses nowadays makes the electric fleet use-less. 3724 has been out of service for more than a year. I don't believe that any repair work will take longer than 12 months unless TTC doesn't need a unit urgently.

[Toro]

Are the proterras retiring? A bunch of them that are sitting at mount dennis near the street are missing interior parts and bike racks. They weren't missing those parts before.

[Highway of Heroes]

6 minutes ago, Toro said:

Are the proterras retiring? A bunch of them that are sitting at mount dennis near the street are missing interior parts and bike racks. They weren't missing those parts before.

Also a bunch of proterras are MIA  at Mount Dennis Garage for example: 3725 which is last seen on January 25th 2024, 3731 last seen on November 18th 2023, 3733 which is last seen on August 22nd 2023, 3736 which is last seen on February 27th 2024 & 3745 which is last seen on March 11th 2024. No Idea why.

[Toro]

4 hours ago, Highway of Heroes said:

Also a bunch of proterras are MIA  at Mount Dennis Garage for example: 3725 which is last seen on January 25th 2024, 3731 last seen on November 18th 2023, 3733 which is last seen on August 22nd 2023, 3736 which is last seen on February 27th 2024 & 3745 which is last seen on March 11th 2024. No Idea why.

They are mia due to part sourcing issues. Now that proterra is bankrupt and ttc is purchasing E buses from NFI and Nova en masse they don't have a real reason to pour unnecessary money to fix them and find parts. Now that some of them appear to have parts missing its possible that they won't be returning to service and might be used to keep the active ones going. Who knows

[leylandvictory2]

12 hours ago, Toro said:

Are the proterras retiring? A bunch of them that are sitting at mount dennis near the street are missing interior parts and bike racks. They weren't missing those parts before.

given they are funded by the federal government, they can't retire until they reach a certain age.  however i wasn't given how many years TTC has to keep them.

[G.A]

55 minutes ago, leylandvictory2 said:

given they are funded by the federal government, they can't retire until they reach a certain age.  however i wasn't given how many years TTC has to keep them.

Not necessarily true. If they can't get parts then they may have to start salvaging parts from other buses to keep the more better condition ones running. Parts wise it will be very difficult but battery wise it should be not too much of a problem.

[WoodbineSecondExit]

On 3/27/2024 at 7:12 PM, D4-N173 said:

TTC seems too conservative about the operation of its 60 3700s. Even BYDs can run for about 12 hours without charging if heat isn't needed. When one of them operated the 513 route at the end of September it ran from 8am to 7pm. But since BYDs don't have the auxiliary heater so I guess that's why they are not active now in cold weather. But Flyers and Proterras have it (correct me if this is wrong), yet they are still largely restricted to peak operations. 
The only reason I could think of is the high spare ratio of diesel buses nowadays makes the electric fleet use-less. 3724 has been out of service for more than a year. I don't believe that any repair work will take longer than 12 months unless TTC doesn't need a unit urgently.

3722 (if I'm not mistaken) I spotted out around Union running on the 121 a couple of Saturdays ago and 3717 the previous day Friday around Union also doing the 121.

[AnalogPentium]

So I went over to the fence at Mount Dennis with a friend yesterday to look at the Proterras. Not only is 3731 missing parts (most prominently the bike rack), but there's also a stop sign on the front of the bus with a note.

What's the note, you may ask? It's on shop wheels rather than the Alcoa ones. Make what you will of that, but it's really, REALLY not looking good.

 

[FlyerD901]

Got word that 6000 is built with decals and all. Still at the NFI

[bus_7246]

52 minutes ago, AnalogPentium said:

So I went over to the fence at Mount Dennis with a friend yesterday to look at the Proterras. Not only is 3731 missing parts (most prominently the bike rack), but there's also a stop sign on the front of the bus with a note.

What's the note, you may ask? It's on shop wheels rather than the Alcoa ones. Make what you will of that, but it's really, REALLY not looking good.

 

That specific unit hasn’t seen service in a year. It’s been on the rims suited for the regular hybrids and other e-buses for a while now