Future TTC Bus Orders

[MK78]

How is this an issue now. Bizarre. Curious what colour they will change to, but the blue lights on top are very good for spotting that a bus is coming from far away.

How can anyone not be used to this, these have been around for a really long time. And why just Nova?

[Bus_Medic]

14 minutes ago, Xtrazsteve said:

Has there been proof these blue lights have caused or almost result in an accident? 

I would like to see the TTC not "recall" their buses if there is no harm..

Doesn’t matter.
This is just a declaration to the world that the manufacturer will not be legally responsible for any incidents resulting from deviating from the transport Canada standard. If the TTC keeps them, they’re on their own.

2 minutes ago, MK78 said:

How is this an issue now. Bizarre. Curious what colour they will change to, but the blue lights on top are very good for spotting that a bus is coming from far away.

How can anyone not be used to this, these have been around for a really long time. And why just Nova?

I expect something similar from the other manufacturers shortly.

[T3G]

How are they going to prove that an accident was caused by deviating from the standard? One can just as easily blame their bad driving on orange destination signs, the red livery, Robert Moses, Henry Ford, or space aliens.

[Xtrazsteve]

How do they even prove this in court. If you see blue, you should pay more attention such as snowploughs and cops use them. You can’t say you got distracted. What about the neon signs still up around store fronts. Maybe we should recall them too in case they distract people.

[Bus_Medic]

15 minutes ago, T3G said:

How are they going to prove that an accident was caused by deviating from the standard? One can just as easily blame their bad driving on orange destination signs, the red livery, Robert Moses, Henry Ford, or space aliens.

None of those lie outside of Transport Canada guidelines, except maybe space aliens. 
 

Litigators spitball. The fewer straws they have to grasp from Novabus’ point of view, the better.

[Kelvin3157]

2 hours ago, Bus_Medic said:

Doesn’t matter.
This is just a declaration to the world that the manufacturer will not be legally responsible for any incidents resulting from deviating from the transport Canada standard. If the TTC keeps them, they’re on their own.

Well TTC purposely spec’d them to have the blue lights so in a way they’re already on their own anyways, I guess this is just reinforcing the fact. Never have heard TTC come after Nova or any bus manufacturer for collisions due to their blue lights.

But come on, how can one crash into a large bus because of its blue lights… if anything during limited visibility in severe weather or fog conditions it would help improve visibility

[RailBus63]

8 minutes ago, Kelvin3157 said:

Well TTC purposely spec’d them to have the blue lights so in a way they’re already on their own anyways, I guess this is just reinforcing the fact. Never have heard TTC come after Nova or any bus manufacturer for collisions due to their blue lights.

But come on, how can one crash into a large bus because of its blue lights… if anything during limited visibility in severe weather or fog conditions it would help improve visibility

TTC wouldn't go after Nova - some lawyer representing a motorist or a pedestrian would.  They'd probably sue TTC as well.

[Bus_Medic]

3 minutes ago, RailBus63 said:

TTC wouldn't go after Nova - some lawyer representing a motorist or a pedestrian would.  They'd probably sue TTC as well.

Exactly. Now Nova can be stricken from that short list.

[Articulated]

So... if the TTC decides to continue ordering the blue lights, what would happen on future deliveries? Would Nova refuse to install them as they've deemed them to be a "safety risk"?

[Bus_Medic]

1 minute ago, Articulated said:

So... if the TTC decides to continue ordering the blue lights, what would happen on future deliveries? Would Nova refuse to install them as they've deemed them to be a "safety risk"?

I would say so. 
 

The customer can install them themselves.

[TTC7447]

I'm just echoing everything that's been said already...

I understand that this is to release NovaBus of liability. 

I understand what I'm about to suggest is out Transport Canada's purview, but I just find it funny that they recalled the blue lights sighting safety and confusion when there are so many other bigger distractors out there, or even on the buses - again, out of their purview (and already mentioned by others) but ad wraps, billboards, stores, "fancy/flashy" cars, phone numbers with large text telling reading "PUNCH ME", etc.  How about those tow trucks with all their fancy accessory lights?

Anyways...I understand the purpose.  I just find it funny that this is being brought up now.

Edit: Wow...never thought this would be a trigger...whoops.

Edited December 28, 2022 by TTC7447

[Kelvin3157]

Hell I’ve seen bikes/scooters with flashing lights ranging from red, blue and any other colour that’s out there. I feel like those are, albeit for visibility reasons, more distracting since they’re also at eye level rather than a bus with steady blue lights at the top.

[MK78]

What about the Flexity streetcars? They have the blue lights too. Crosstown probably too, though they are somewhat separated except on intersections.

[T3G]

27 minutes ago, MK78 said:

What about the Flexity streetcars? They have the blue lights too. Crosstown probably too, though they are somewhat separated except on intersections.

If memory serves, urban street railways don't fall under the purview of Transport Canada. At least, not back in 2008, they didn't. Not sure if anything has changed on that file since then.

[Kelvin3157]

45 minutes ago, MK78 said:

What about the Flexity streetcars? They have the blue lights too. Crosstown probably too, though they are somewhat separated except on intersections.

ION in Waterloo has the blue lights too, and even though there has been collisions with the trains, none of them have been associated with the blue lights

 

Anyways, here’s TTC’s reasoning for the blue lights:

 

[MK78]

47 minutes ago, Kelvin3157 said:

Anyways, here’s TTC’s reasoning for the blue lights:

 

Yeah that makes sense, but someone may have thought that it was for accessible buses, because the accessible buses had them first? I think even the Nova RTS had them and Orion V's?

[Kelvin3157]

42 minutes ago, MK78 said:

Yeah that makes sense, but someone may have thought that it was for accessible buses, because the accessible buses had them first? I think even the Nova RTS had them and Orion V's?

The 7000s Orion Vs had them first, yes.

[tommike]

one more point is way it just nova bus?  it could have been a try that ttc and transport did and that try time up or no other transit buses wanted them to.

[Bus_Medic]

6 hours ago, MK78 said:

Yeah that makes sense, but someone may have thought that it was for accessible buses, because the accessible buses had them first? I think even the Nova RTS had them and Orion V's?

In the beginning the rationale absolutely was that the lights denoted lift equipped bus approaching. That morphed into anything accessible as the years went on, the logical conclusion of which was the whole generalized fleet once it turned over.

Either way there’s no method to verify since accessibility became an internal requirement going forward after the 1996 equipment delivery.

The cubicle dweller at TTC helps likely wasn’t even born yet when the 7000s were introduced.

[Doppelkupplung]

6 hours ago, Kelvin3157 said:

But come on, how can one crash into a large bus because of its blue lights… if anything during limited visibility in severe weather or fog conditions it would help improve visibility

In the same way one MiWay bus braking hard probably resulted in middle and exposed seats getting blocked off. If someone brought it up as a current or potential issue when they were involved in an incident, the manufacturer or operator will want to minimize or remove the potential for any liability. With the seats, it was MiWay, and obviously here with the lights it’s Novabus.

[Xtrazsteve]

I guess the TTC can request for light sockets that is more easily accessible and screw then in themselves.

 Perhaps novabus doesn’t want to test them on the road with blue lights on in Quebec/US.

[lip]

Next thing we know, Transport Canada will start restricting bike racks from being installed on buses because drivers cant see them and will be deemed a risk as a result. Honestly this is so idiotic, there are far more important things for TC to be looking at (but arent), but instead the bureaucrats there have nothing better to do apparently.

For starters how about they go fix some long outstanding regulations in aviation industry which they are deficient in addressing.

[Bus_Medic]

2 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

I guess the TTC can request for light sockets that is more easily accessible and screw then in themselves.

 Perhaps novabus doesn’t want to test them on the road with blue lights on in Quebec/US.

New York City’s select bus service uses a similar arrangement, but I’m not going to pretend to know the regulations outside Canada.

[RailBus63]

7 hours ago, Bus_Medic said:

New York City’s select bus service uses a similar arrangement, but I’m not going to pretend to know the regulations outside Canada.

Not anymore - the MTA was forced to remove the blue lights on buses due to a conflict with New York state regulations which restricted their use to emergency vehicles only.

[MK78]

Well here in Ontario the snow plows use flashing orange and blue, but if you mistake a bus for a snowplow and cause an accident because two forward only non-flashing lights distracted you, chances are you shouldn't be driving.

All emergency vehicles use some sort of flashing lights. far more distracting than two non flashing lights on the very top of a city bus.

How long before some snowflake complains over the strobes on school buses.