Air conditioning problems for the TTC vehicles (buses, subways)

[smallspy]

1 hour ago, 6254 said:

The actual % may be lower as the units with A/C problems are likely sidelined during the summer months. If 90 cars (roughly 360*25%) do not have A/C running, the summer service reduction, for example, cuts 3 trains or 18 cars; then only 72 cars are required to stay in service in rush hours. Therefore the actual % cars with non-working A/C that are in service should be lower, maybe 20%.

That's the rub....

 

The TTC has gone on record of saying that up to 25% of the cars don't have A/C. I don't believe, however, that they've specified if that is 25% of the cars in service on any given day, or whether that is of the whole fleet.

 

And if it's the cars in service, than the number with failed A/C is a lot higher than they're making it out to be. Remember, there's 90 cars that are not needed for service each weekday. Assuming that 25% of the fleet in service doesn't have functioning A/C, than I think it's fair to assume (due to maintenance/retrofits/etc) that a higher proportion than that is out of service at any given time without working A/C as well.

 

Dan

[raptorjays]

Well.. with summer season is almost coming to an end.. I was expecting many of the subway cars with malfunctioning AC unit will be fixed. However, I really don't see a lot of improvements until now. This really shows that the TTC do not qualify as a first-class transit system. 

Today, I just tried to be in the subway car without A/C just to feel how bad is it. About 5 minutes later, I had to get off and go to the next car since I was sweating like Niagara Falls. 

If this problem continues into next summer, they seriously need to think about privatizing the transit system since the city can't handle many problems within the TTC like this. 

[HB_1024]

52 minutes ago, raptorjays said:

If this problem continues into next summer, they seriously need to think about privatizing the transit system since the city can't handle many problems within the TTC like this. 

Hold on for just a minute here.

What you are basically suggesting is that the TTC prioritize fixing A/C onboard cars, as opposed to fixing other infrastructure like signals and existing track, as well as new projects like the Eglinton Crosstown line, the TYSSE, that Yonge subway extension into York Region (assuming that work has even started on it or will start within the next few years), and undoubtedly others I am forgetting about. That is going to delay already delayed projects months if not years. Aren't Torontonians already complaining about a lot of that stuff? And furthermore, what kind of basis are you going on when you expect that a private company that wants to maximize profit and thus minimize downtime is going to prioritize A/C over other maintenance tasks?

If anything, I'd expect a private company to let that slide even further in the name of "keeping service running".

Air conditioning onboard cars is not nearly as big a deal as is repairing existing infrastructure and making/keeping it safe. Is a hot subway car safe? Arguably not, but neither is having the potential for an in-service train derail because some switch maintenance was delayed in order to facilitate the repair of trainsets with broken air conditioning, an unlikely but very real risk that comes along with delaying maintenance like that.

Basically, as annoying as it is, the TTC has bigger things to worry about right now than fixing air conditioning onboard subway trains. Streetcar supply delays, track maintenance, signal upgrades, etc.

[Ed T.]

4 hours ago, HB_1024 said:

Hold on for just a minute here.

What you are basically suggesting is that the TTC prioritize fixing A/C onboard cars, as opposed to fixing other infrastructure like signals and existing track, as well as new projects like the Eglinton Crosstown line, the TYSSE, that Yonge subway extension into York Region (assuming that work has even started on it or will start within the next few years), and undoubtedly others I am forgetting about. That is going to delay already delayed projects months if not years. Aren't Torontonians already complaining about a lot of that stuff? And furthermore, what kind of basis are you going on when you expect that a private company that wants to maximize profit and thus minimize downtime is going to prioritize A/C over other maintenance tasks?

Air conditioning onboard cars is not nearly as big a deal as is repairing existing infrastructure and making/keeping it safe. Is a hot subway car safe? Arguably not, but neither is having the potential for an in-service train derail because some switch maintenance was delayed in order to facilitate the repair of trainsets with broken air conditioning, an unlikely but very real risk that comes along with delaying maintenance like that.

Basically, as annoying as it is, the TTC has bigger things to worry about right now than fixing air conditioning onboard subway trains. Streetcar supply delays, track maintenance, signal upgrades, etc.

 

Do you understand the difference between capital budget and operations budget? Do you understand the difference between the TTC (owner of those non-A/C subway cars) and Metrolinx (builders of the Eglinton Crosstown)? The TTC fixing the A/C may require a bigger operations budget, but that won't take away from the politicans' pet projects such as SSE, the Yonge extension, and other follies. (Or maybe useful projects, but I'm not holding my breath.)

As for the non-A/C cars being "not a big deal", have you made the trip down from Ottawa to try some? I have, and that was before 9:30 in the morning and only from Islington to Keele, and I was glad to get off. It seems that a bunch of those non-A/C cars don't have any ventilation running, period. There are no windows to open, so you can't even compare the situation to third-world transport where at least the windows are open. There is no way that the cars could handle a full standing load in the PM rush hour, so essentially it's cutting the capacity of the train as riders try to squeeze on a cooled car. So even if fixing the A/C takes away from some other part of the operational budget, lack of A/C is seriously cutting into the capacity of the Bloor-Danforth....not to mention really pissing off riders who have to endure ridiculous conditions.

If you think no A/C is no big deal, I invite you to drive around in a car on a sunny afternoon with the windows rolled up and the A/C and fan turned off, for say an hour. Get back to us on how inconsequential heat stroke might be.

[lip]

And yet we have the two-faced mayor coming out saying that its unaccaeptabe that the T1's are having A/C problems and that they should speed up repairs, while at the same time demanding the TTC cuts 2.5% from it's budget.

Pixie dust must be a hot commodity with Tory.

[H4 5600]

lfs 8560 didn't have working AC this morning, it was on route 35

[raptorjays]

3 hours ago, H4 5600 said:

lfs 8560 didn't have working AC this morning, it was on route 35

To say something positive. There are less number of buses which didn't have working A/C compared to other summer. (based on my experience). However, subway cars without A/C is definitely killing me..

10 hours ago, Ed T. said:

 

Do you understand the difference between capital budget and operations budget? Do you understand the difference between the TTC (owner of those non-A/C subway cars) and Metrolinx (builders of the Eglinton Crosstown)? The TTC fixing the A/C may require a bigger operations budget, but that won't take away from the politicans' pet projects such as SSE, the Yonge extension, and other follies. (Or maybe useful projects, but I'm not holding my breath.)

As for the non-A/C cars being "not a big deal", have you made the trip down from Ottawa to try some? I have, and that was before 9:30 in the morning and only from Islington to Keele, and I was glad to get off. It seems that a bunch of those non-A/C cars don't have any ventilation running, period. There are no windows to open, so you can't even compare the situation to third-world transport where at least the windows are open. There is no way that the cars could handle a full standing load in the PM rush hour, so essentially it's cutting the capacity of the train as riders try to squeeze on a cooled car. So even if fixing the A/C takes away from some other part of the operational budget, lack of A/C is seriously cutting into the capacity of the Bloor-Danforth....not to mention really pissing off riders who have to endure ridiculous conditions.

If you think no A/C is no big deal, I invite you to drive around in a car on a sunny afternoon with the windows rolled up and the A/C and fan turned off, for say an hour. Get back to us on how inconsequential heat stroke might be.

I agree with your post. No A/C on the BD line is definitely impacting the ridership statistics as well. If there are no guarantee that you will have A/C inside the train, i would rather choose to drive or find alternatives.. 

Plus, I found out that they cut service on line 2 significantly this summer.. Usually the train runs every 2-3 minutes during the rush hour, but I often saw 5-6 minute headway even during the afternoon rush. Sometimes, I saw 9 minute headway during late evening

[T3G]

2 hours ago, raptorjays said:

Plus, I found out that they cut service on line 2 significantly this summer.. Usually the train runs every 2-3 minutes during the rush hour, but I often saw 5-6 minute headway even during the afternoon rush. Sometimes, I saw 9 minute headway during late evening

And what makes you that is scheduled?

30 seconds of reading the service summary would reveal to you that 2-3 minute headways are still very much the norm on the BD during rush hour, and are never larger than 4 minutes 52 seconds.

I suppose you think that they schedule 40 minute headways on the Dufferin bus as well?

[leylandvictory2]

6 hours ago, H4 5600 said:

lfs 8560 didn't have working AC this morning, it was on route 35

the driver may have turned off the a/c

[HB_1024]

17 hours ago, Ed T. said:

Do you understand the difference between capital budget and operations budget? Do you understand the difference between the TTC (owner of those non-A/C subway cars) and Metrolinx (builders of the Eglinton Crosstown)? The TTC fixing the A/C may require a bigger operations budget, but that won't take away from the politicans' pet projects such as SSE, the Yonge extension, and other follies. (Or maybe useful projects, but I'm not holding my breath.)

As for the non-A/C cars being "not a big deal", have you made the trip down from Ottawa to try some? I have, and that was before 9:30 in the morning and only from Islington to Keele, and I was glad to get off. It seems that a bunch of those non-A/C cars don't have any ventilation running, period. There are no windows to open, so you can't even compare the situation to third-world transport where at least the windows are open. There is no way that the cars could handle a full standing load in the PM rush hour, so essentially it's cutting the capacity of the train as riders try to squeeze on a cooled car. So even if fixing the A/C takes away from some other part of the operational budget, lack of A/C is seriously cutting into the capacity of the Bloor-Danforth....not to mention really pissing off riders who have to endure ridiculous conditions.

If you think no A/C is no big deal, I invite you to drive around in a car on a sunny afternoon with the windows rolled up and the A/C and fan turned off, for say an hour. Get back to us on how inconsequential heat stroke might be.

And privatizing the TTC will help how, exactly?

Everything else notwithstanding (some of which isn't well-thought-out after going over it again), what I said regarding privatization stands completely. Suggesting the TTC should no longer be a public entity because they decided to prioritize track maintenance over A/C repair is a ridiculous suggestion that will not solve the problem. Can't run trains on broken track, A/C or not.

For the record, I have traveled to London, Ontario from Ottawa in a car without air conditioning or open windows.

And furthermore, I did NOT suggest that no A/C was not a big deal. I DID suggest that the TTC has bigger things to deal with (aging streetcar fleet?), a point that stands as well.

Dealing with the cars without A/C would be a good winter project when the A/C is not needed. But suggesting the issue won't crop up next summer, and suggesting drastic action such as privatization if it does, is also grossly absurd. Cars with A/C now may not have A/C by the time next summer rolls around, and if Tory gets his 2.5% budget cut it is even more likely to crop up again.

[Ed T.]

6 hours ago, HB_1024 said:

And privatizing the TTC will help how, exactly?

Everything else notwithstanding (some of which isn't well-thought-out after going over it again), what I said regarding privatization stands completely. Suggesting the TTC should no longer be a public entity because they decided to prioritize track maintenance over A/C repair is a ridiculous suggestion that will not solve the problem. Can't run trains on broken track, A/C or not.

For the record, I have traveled to London, Ontario from Ottawa in a car without air conditioning or open windows.

And furthermore, I did NOT suggest that no A/C was not a big deal. I DID suggest that the TTC has bigger things to deal with (aging streetcar fleet?), a point that stands as well.

Dealing with the cars without A/C would be a good winter project when the A/C is not needed. But suggesting the issue won't crop up next summer, and suggesting drastic action such as privatization if it does, is also grossly absurd. Cars with A/C now may not have A/C by the time next summer rolls around, and if Tory gets his 2.5% budget cut it is even more likely to crop up again.

Please point out where I said anything about privatisation. Perhaps you have confused me with someone else.

I am pretty sure you did not make that drive in sweltering weather while standing in a jam-packed car for half an hour or more. Furthermore, if it got really hot, I would expect the windows would have been rolled down. But this is moot; you should come here and experience the hot cars, and the riders' reactions to them, yourself. I have, and while I don't have A/C at home, and rarely use it in my cars, the subway cars without A/C are a different story. The only reason I stayed on them was because I had a short trip, and had a seat on an uncrowded car. (The exit I want at Keele lines up with the second-last EB car, and the second-last car seems to be hot as often as not.)

Of course the TTC should be able to fix tracks and subway cars at the same time. They are different tasks with different expertise and (I would expect) are done by separate departments. If the TTC has insufficient mechanics to keep the A/C running on the subway cars, do they have sufficient mechanics to keep the cars running properly anyway? The failed A/C is a symptom of poor maintenance. Obviously there should be more money and attention spent to subway car maintenance.

Why would A/C be a good "winter project"? If they were unable to do it for summer, why should they have time in winter? Cold weather undoubtedly raises other maintenance issues for the stored-outside subway cars.

[nfitz]

17 hours ago, raptorjays said:

To say something positive. There are less number of buses which didn't have working A/C compared to other summer. (based on my experience). However, subway cars without A/C is definitely killing me..

Though on the subway, you can always walk to the front or back car, and you'll get A/C. On the bus you are stuck - unless you are willing to bake in the sun waiting for the next bus.

[Xtrazsteve]

Anyone notice that the TRs create a massive backlog on Line 2? TRs usually enter Kipling Station OOS cause they aren't crewed by regular ops who have double step back. Instead the TR crews just take their few minutes off and return to their train. 

 

This whole AC thing has been causing enough problems already.

[TheAverageJoe]

14 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

Anyone notice that the TRs create a massive backlog on Line 2? TRs usually enter Kipling Station OOS cause they aren't crewed by regular ops who have double step back. Instead the TR crews just take their few minutes off and return to their train. 

 

This whole AC thing has been causing enough problems already.

They are slow as hell that is why

 

[lip]

2 hours ago, TheAverageJoe said:

They are slow as hell that is why

 

Blame the TTC on that, that's the way they spec'd them.

[Xtrazsteve]

2 hours ago, TheAverageJoe said:

They are slow as hell that is why

 

They block off one platform is more of the problem. Sometimes they stuff the TRs in the pocket tracks at Kipling. This leads to trains entering Kipling slowly as TTC's procedure don't allow them to enter at regular speeds with a train right in front. Subway backlogs are already bad enough, now they regularly stack all the way past Islington. If you wonder why there are 5-6 minute gaps one Line 2, thank the TRs.

Don't get me started on how my line 1 trips take 5 minutes longer. I also noticed the line 1 stations are hotter these days. Coincidence with the arrival of the TRs? Possibly.

One the plus side, their AC unit is better. 

[drum118]

Man, today people are whips when it comes to no AC.

What did people do riding the subway before AC came along?? Same goes for buses and streetcars???

One only has go a few hundred miles from Toronto to ride buses and trams these days with no AC and no plan to add them on the new fleet.

Even in Europe you will not fine AC on a fair number of large systems.

This also apply to schools, churches, retail and work place.

[T3G]

I would sort of understand your point, if you were able to open the windows or otherwise cycle the air in any way on a T1 unit with busted A/C. The point you're missing is that most surface vehicles that lack air-conditioning have openable windows, and while even that may not be ideal in the hottest of climates, at least you'll get some air flow if you manage to get up to high enough speeds. The fans on cars like H4s may not have been ideal, but at least they did something. What is a passenger on a T1 with busted A/C expected to do?

[38 Highland Creek]

On 8/30/2016 at 10:08 PM, leylandvictory2 said:

the driver may have turned off the a/c

The Novas have thermostats so the A/C cycles on and off when it gets to a temperature setting.

[ngdvd]

I'm sick of all these comments about other cities not having A/C, and therefore Torontonian's shouldn't complain. The idea is Toronto should follow other place's standards. Montreal has no A/C, so we shouldn't care about A/C? Well, Montreal has no streetcars either, so by that logic Toronto should scrap all its streetcars. Children in Nigeria are starving to death, so maybe we shouldn't care if children in Canada starve to death either?

Fact of the matter, this is Canada. This is Toronto. The fact is, our transit vehicles have A/C. And so when the A/C is broken it should be fixed. Because that is part of Toronto's standards, otherwise the vehicles would not have A/C in the first place.. If you want prefer another place's standards, then STFU and GTFO. Go move someplace else. Toronto is not the place for you and we don't want you here anyways.

 

[T3G]

2 hours ago, ngdvd said:

Children in Nigeria are starving to death, so maybe we shouldn't care if children in Canada starve to death either?

Not that I disagree with the bulk of your post, but this is one of the least apt comparisons I have ever read.

Everyone is acting like these A/C less places aren't complaining about it or anything, so the only way your comparison would be applicable was if African children were perfectly okay with starving, which I'm reasonably certain is not the case...

[Streety McCarface]

On September 23, 2016 at 3:14 PM, ngdvd said:

I'm sick of all these comments about other cities not having A/C, and therefore Torontonian's shouldn't complain. The idea is Toronto should follow other place's standards. Montreal has no A/C, so we shouldn't care about A/C? Well, Montreal has no streetcars either, so by that logic Toronto should scrap all its streetcars. Children in Nigeria are starving to death, so maybe we shouldn't care if children in Canada starve to death either?

Fact of the matter, this is Canada. This is Toronto. The fact is, our transit vehicles have A/C. And so when the A/C is broken it should be fixed. Because that is part of Toronto's standards, otherwise the vehicles would not have A/C in the first place.. If you want prefer another place's standards, then STFU and GTFO. Go move someplace else. Toronto is not the place for you and we don't want you here anyways.

 

Chill out. You are guaranteed at least two air conditioned cars on each train on line two. Just stand at the end of the platform and you'll get a car with AC. Just be glad it isn't Line 1 that is having the crisis. 

[6254]

The A/C still makes a difference to most on board of a train even today's high temperature was 18.8C, it is still very warm indoor everywhere and people have had some physical activities before getting on a train.

3004 and 3016 (likely being refurbished now) or some more do not have functioning A/C the whole summer.

[Xtrazsteve]

16 hours ago, 6254 said:

The A/C still makes a difference to most on board of a train even today's high temperature was 18.8C, it is still very warm indoor everywhere and people have had some physical activities before getting on a train.

3004 and 3016 (likely being refurbished now) or some more do not have functioning A/C the whole summer.

Some of the trains are just stuffy. I'm doubting the ventilation is ever working properly.