TTC GM Fleet Reminiscing

[tomsbuspage]

Interior shots of TTC 3722 from gmbus.com:

[Ed T.]

Thank you Robert and Ed for the critique and information. How good is your memory about the interior design of the GMs?

As far as I've been able to tell, the light green scheme with the black and pink seats came about in the mid-60s and lasted until the late 70s when the TTC began exploring various seat designs. Since then, the interiors were off-white and brown. Not sure what the very early GMs were like.

Related to that: the D800 that was owned by a production company had seats with alternating orange and brown inserts. Was this on any other TTC bus?

Interior shots of TTC 3722 from gmbus.com:

I wonder what that was along the middle of the ceiling? Won't be the lights, since these buses had the large lit advertising holders on either side.

Reply to post #350.

I don't recall seeing any multi-coloured seats on any GM buses. The green interior lasted I think up until the 8160-8204 order, then the 8270-8314 was the first with the brown interior and it was the order with the stainless framed seats.

The early GMs had a metallic pink colour for the interior, which changed to the green somewhere at either the 3300s or 3500s. We'd have to look for open door pictures of those series. I think the Starburst ceiling pattern was from the very beginning up until the brown interiors when it went to the gold speckles. If anyone can confirm any of these or correct my memories, please do.

The interior colour scheme changes when the GM buses switched from the standee windows, I think that's at 3560, but it could be at 3524. Maybe someone who knows could update the wiki which doesn't say much. I believe that even the starburst pattern on the "pink" buses was a different colour, more in the pink (which was definitely on the beige end of pink) tone? That earlier colour scheme had seat backs all one colour, which was a grey. The later buses had the orange-red upper part of the seats, as seen on some of the seats in the 3722 interior. I don't know if the solid grey seats in that bus are from an earlier bus or just reupholstered more simply. I do find it interesting that the shape of the handgrabs on the seats are different shapes too.

The upholstered interiors stopped in two steps. 8270-8314 had the beige fibreglass buckets with brown upholstery inserts, pretty much like all the later TTC buses until the Novas. (This series also had bright yellow oversize unit numbers on the back of the signboard; I quite liked those.) Then 8320-8369 had CLRV style metal seats with brown padding. I don't really recall other interior colour scheme details on these, but I imagine that's where the brown doors started.

The Flyers were always a bit gaudier than the GMs for upholstery. Their orange upholstery was a lot more orange. It would not surprise me to see some odd schemes in those buses.

[doug_oak]

Standee windows on the GM newlooks ended at 3574.

[Ed T.]

Standee windows on the GM newlooks ended at 3574.

Wiki has 3560-3599 all as one series. Something's wrong somewhere.

[doug_oak]

According to the serial numbers, 3560-74 were serials C288-C302, and 3575-99 were serials C307-C331, all delivered in 1965. In between (C303-C306) were two buses to each of Lethbridge, AB and Autobus Yvan Levis (Laval, QC).

As an older member, I can recall the split point re the standee windows based on personal observation, but perhaps another Board member can confirm this.

[Downsview 108]

Reply to post #350.

I don't recall seeing any multi-coloured seats on any GM buses. The green interior lasted I think up until the 8160-8204 order, then the 8270-8314 was the first with the brown interior and it was the order with the stainless framed seats.

The early GMs had a metallic pink colour for the interior, which changed to the green somewhere at either the 3300s or 3500s. We'd have to look for open door pictures of those series. I think the Starburst ceiling pattern was from the very beginning up until the brown interiors when it went to the gold speckles. If anyone can confirm any of these or correct my memories, please do.

Only the 1980 8300s had the CLRV styled seats.

There was also a brown variant of the star pattern.

Original

Brown (can't remember which bus this was but I think it was one of the 21xx rebuilds)

[Tom1122]

My dad and I are having a little bet on which 8058 the TTC will renumber: The fishbowl or the Orion 7.

I'm saying the Orion 7 will be renumbered. My dad says the fishbowl will be renumbered.

The winner will get $0.05.

[G.A]

My dad and I are having a little bet on which 8058 the TTC will renumber: The fishbowl or the Orion 7.

I'm saying the Orion 7 will be renumbered. My dad says the fishbowl will be renumbered.

The winner will get $0.05.

I doubt there will be any renumbering between both buses.

[TTCNLFBT]

It's hard to say which 8058 will get renumbered. There must be one 8058 active in the TTC and the other must renumbered because there will be a confusion between the two buses. If the Orion VII gets renumbered it will be either 7980 or 7999. My prediction is Fishbowl 8058 will be renumbered to 2058 (#2).

[T3G]

Why not just renumber 8058 internally, a la 4500 and 4549?

[Xtrazsteve]

My dad and I are having a little bet on which 8058 the TTC will renumber: The fishbowl or the Orion 7.

I'm saying the Orion 7 will be renumbered. My dad says the fishbowl will be renumbered.

The winner will get $0.05.

I doubt this will happen but what will you renumber Orion VII 8058 to? 7999 is the only reasonable pick. Still it will be awkward when all the other buses in the series are 80xx.

[Ed T.]

According to the serial numbers, 3560-74 were serials C288-C302, and 3575-99 were serials C307-C331, all delivered in 1965. In between (C303-C306) were two buses to each of Lethbridge, AB and Autobus Yvan Levis (Laval, QC).

As an older member, I can recall the split point re the standee windows based on personal observation, but perhaps another Board member can confirm this.

You know, I think you're right, but, like you, it was personal observation and memories from 35 years back. I had a very Wilson-centric view of buses, since I was riding the 106/106A daily. Wilson's 3500s mostly ran on 29 Dufferin, but they did show up on 106 in peak times. I also recall 3300s and a 3100 that must have been weeks away from retirement showing up circa 1980.

Those shadows along the ceiling centre line are from the original florescent tubes (I'll see what I have in archives, but don't think I was shooting the ceilings...)

Lighting moved to the ad's at a later date.

Nope, all post-standee buses had ad lighting as I recall. This may have been some one-off I guess.

[Bus_Medic]

There will be NO renumbering.

[T6H-5307N]

Then there are a few possible options:

1. originally delivered with centre tubes and non-back-lit side ads and later retro fitted to back-lit ads

2. ceiling tile was salvaged from a centre tube equipped unit

Not too sure when your pic was taken, but it was built in 1965, so I am leaning towards option 1.

I will second option 1. I don't have a citation for it, but I am fairly certain that the backlit ad panels weren't available until 1972 with the 4th generation units.

[tomsbuspage]

Transit Toronto has photos of 3564 rotting away in the woods near Peterborough, and the photo below clearly shows the salmon-pink interior which was pretty much the same colour scheme as OC Transpo Fishbowls:

Then there are a few possible options:

1. originally delivered with centre tubes and non-back-lit side ads and later retro fitted to back-lit ads

2. ceiling tile was salvaged from a centre tube equipped unit

Not too sure when your pic was taken, but it was built in 1965, so I am leaning towards option 1.

After looking through web.archive.org, I found that the interior photo of 3722 had been posted online by April 2002, so the photo had to have been taken before then. At the time, the bus was owned by a collector in California who had bought it from a bus contractor in Georgia, so the photo was taken years after the TTC had retired the bus. Sadly, the collector was ordered by his city to get rid of his collection some years ago, and after trying to sell the bus for $5000 with no takers, it was scrapped along with many other buses in his collection.

I will second option 1. I don't have a citation for it, but I am fairly certain that the backlit ad panels weren't available until 1972 with the 4th generation units.

According to the Toronto Archives, this photo was taken in 1965, showing the backlit ad panels, so they were installed long before the fourth-generation of Fishbowls was introduced:

[T6H-5307N]

According to the Toronto Archives, this photo was taken in 1965, showing the backlit ad panels, so they were installed long before the fourth-generation of Fishbowls was introduced:

Cool; nice find

I'm still curious if anyone can verify what lighting options were available at which times though. I'm not having much luck finding any information, even after consulting a few New Look specific books and articles...

[Ed T.]

I rode those buses, and the lighting switch was at the same time as the standee windows went away. Probably the new style lighting and lit ads caused the disappearance of the standee windows.

The M1 subway cars had strip lighting like the older GMs, but the H1 cars introduced ad lighting, and they were being manufactured by 1965. So it may well be that the TTC decided that it would be so spiffy to have all its new vehicles to be that modern.

[Jeffrey]

On the topic of TTC New Looks, I recall as a child New Looks rolling down Pharmacy that had identical tailgates as the 5307's but with one spotting difference, the rear turn/stop indicators jutted out slightly more than normal. Being an avid bus spotter at an early age I only recall seeing them a couple of times. It appears these buses were late model 5305's (correct me if wrong) Most photos that exist of TTC 5305's are front views. not a rear views of these buses if any exist to confirm what I saw as kid.

[2044]

Some other photos of the inside of early TTC GMs.

On the topic of TTC New Looks, I recall as a child New Looks rolling down Pharmacy that had identical tailgates as the 5307's but with one spotting difference, the rear turn/stop indicators jutted out slightly more than normal. Being an avid bus spotter at an early age I only recall seeing them a couple of times. It appears these buses were late model 5305's (correct me if wrong) Most photos that exist of TTC 5305's are front views. not a rear views of these buses if any exist to confirm what I saw as kid.

I much prefer the mid-century modern tailgate on the first generation New Looks.

[tomsbuspage]

On the topic of TTC New Looks, I recall as a child New Looks rolling down Pharmacy that had identical tailgates as the 5307's but with one spotting difference, the rear turn/stop indicators jutted out slightly more than normal. Being an avid bus spotter at an early age I only recall seeing them a couple of times. It appears these buses were late model 5305's (correct me if wrong) Most photos that exist of TTC 5305's are front views. not a rear views of these buses if any exist to confirm what I saw as kid.

You were paying attention back then, much more so than I was at that age!

The so-called "bug-eyed" taillights were a feature on Fishbowls built between 1970 and 1972, essentially the late-model third- (4521, 5305, 5306) and earliest fourth-generation (4523, 5307, 5308) Fishbowls. While I can't find any TTC photos at the moment, there are photos online of other Fishbowls with the same setup:

1971 T6H-4521 (Worcester Regional Transit 510):

1971 T8H-5305A (Golden Gate Transit 738):

1972 T6H-5307N (AC Transit 969):

[Jeffrey]

You were paying attention back then, much more so than I was at that age!

The so-called "bug-eyed" taillights were a feature on Fishbowls built between 1970 and 1972, essentially the late-model third- (4521, 5305, 5306) and earliest fourth-generation (4523, 5307, 5308) Fishbowls. While I can't find any TTC photos at the moment, there are photos online of other Fishbowls with the same setup:

1971 T6H-4521 (Worcester Regional Transit 510):

1971 T8H-5305A (Golden Gate Transit 738):

1972 T6H-5307N (AC Transit 969):

Yes, I was an transit observer from a very early age, not sure if it worried my parents much lol, yes those would be the lights I am referring to. It is interesting, because over they years in this hobby I have come across photos of almost every version of TTC New Looks front, side, interior rear but as I stated earlier this variant of TTC New Look is hard to find.

[Ed T.]

On the topic of TTC New Looks, I recall as a child New Looks rolling down Pharmacy that had identical tailgates as the 5307's but with one spotting difference, the rear turn/stop indicators jutted out slightly more than normal. Being an avid bus spotter at an early age I only recall seeing them a couple of times. It appears these buses were late model 5305's (correct me if wrong) Most photos that exist of TTC 5305's are front views. not a rear views of these buses if any exist to confirm what I saw as kid.

Yes, those were the 7523-7552 buses.

[D. DeLarge]

As posted on another group, from the Scott Richards collection, TTC 7541 new in front of University College on the UofT St. George campus in July of 1972.

Notice rear tail lights

[Ed T.]

Speaking of early New Looks, did TTC buses have an emergency exit door across from the rear doors? Also, was there ever a seat across from the rear doors?

I seem to recall that there was a green light or something on a 3100 I rode once, and possibly a door back there. Not sure what I'm remembering, though; it's been a long time.

As posted on another group, from the Scott Richards collection, TTC 7541 new in front of University College on the UofT St. George campus in July of 1972.

Notice rear tail lights

Were those also the last buses to come with the railway-style fleet numbers?

[tomsbuspage]

Speaking of early New Looks, did TTC buses have an emergency exit door across from the rear doors? Also, was there ever a seat across from the rear doors?

I seem to recall that there was a green light or something on a 3100 I rode once, and possibly a door back there. Not sure what I'm remembering, though; it's been a long time.

I did a little checking online, and it looks as if the TTC only ordered these emergency exits on the 2900-series 5301 and 4517 buses. I found some photos by Bob Hussey at http://public.fotki.com/esbdave/canadian-transit/ontario-transit-agencies/ttc and the 2900s have the exits, but not 3100 or any following buses, including the 1962 TDH-5302 buses numbered 3140 to 3149:

(Here's a question someone may be able to answer: Why did the TTC skip the 3000, 3200, 3400, 3600, and 3800 series when numbering their Fishbowls?)

I cannot comment on the interior configuration of the TTC buses, but on the buses with these emergency exits I've boarded (OC Transpo 6101 and CTCUM 14-008), there is usually a row of seats next to the door, and the door is kept closed using a metal handle which is lifted up 90 degrees in order to swing the door outwards. There was no light over the emergency exits on any of the buses I rode.

As far as I know, New York never had the exits on their Fishbowls, Toronto stopped ordering them after 1960 and Ottawa after 1963, while Quebec City kept ordering them until 1968 and Montreal until 1973. This exit was nearly universal on the Old Look buses because there were few other escape routes if buses needed to be evacuated rapidly. However, once the New Look entered production with nearly every side window available as an escape hatch, the emergency exit became less necessary and bus companies gradually stopped specifying the option throughout the 1960s.