Y-U-S line becoming too long?

[Xtrazsteve]

If they are to spend massive money in splitting the line, they might as well split the line with a new spur north of Bloor-Yonge and have the Yonge line route down that new spur (possibly on Bay street) which can extend to King/Bay. This can turn Bay street into an interchange station too but the station would have to be under Lower Bay. This would allow they to rebuild Bloor-Yonge with a Spanish solution and have the University Line go around the U to terminate at Bloor-Yonge in morning rush hour.

[Ed T.]

A more sensible (for some value of 'sensible') scheme would be to create two parallel Yonge lines south of Eglinton. The current subway becomes the local line, to Eglinton only, running around to Vaughan/Midland/Wawa. Take the north Yonge part, which already has long stop spacing, and continue it south with stops at Eglinton, St. Clair (maybe?), Bloor, and somewhere by City Hall. Probably run it under Bay St as proposed above.

Extra points for using Lower Bay station--that's a foamer dream.

[Gil]

On 5/28/2020 at 8:44 PM, nfitz said:

Last time I checked, the travel time from Richmond Hill Centre on the subway would be about a minute or two slower than the subway. But far less waiting for a train, with trains every couple of minutes at peak, compared to long waits.

Surely anyone travelling to any station on Yonge, they'll be riding this line. And many using Union as well - even if the fare was the same.

That may be the case, but rush hour has a way of adding additional minutes with the (pre-pandemic) passengers requiring additional dwell time.  Especially if the cars are already packed and people are trying to squeeze themselves onto the train.  How much moreso will this be when Line 5 is completed and funnelling additional passengers to Eglinton Station?

[nfitz]

5 hours ago, Gil said:

That may be the case, but rush hour has a way of adding additional minutes with the (pre-pandemic) passengers requiring additional dwell time.  Especially if the cars are already packed and people are trying to squeeze themselves onto the train.  How much moreso will this be when Line 5 is completed and funnelling additional passengers to Eglinton Station?

That was the rush-hour schedule. Though yes, stuff does happen, and things have certainly been slower in recent years between Bloor and Eglinton, with various issues.

But once the new signalling system is in, and trains are automated, then the gains increase. The station downtown with the most arrivals in AM peak is Dundas - that's not going to be served by GO. Even walking from a GO Train platform to King can take near 15 minutes by the time you get off the train, and off the platform, and fight the crowds.

And those boarding at Vaughan will be the ones with the seats all the way to King or Union.

Perhaps the reason that demand on the Richmond Hill GO line shows such pathetically low increases in the long-term modelling compared to all the other lines, once the network is complete.

[Mike]

22 hours ago, nfitz said:

That was the rush-hour schedule. Though yes, stuff does happen, and things have certainly been slower in recent years between Bloor and Eglinton, with various issues.

But once the new signalling system is in, and trains are automated, then the gains increase. The station downtown with the most arrivals in AM peak is Dundas - that's not going to be served by GO. Even walking from a GO Train platform to King can take near 15 minutes by the time you get off the train, and off the platform, and fight the crowds.

And those boarding at Vaughan will be the ones with the seats all the way to King or Union.

Perhaps the reason that demand on the Richmond Hill GO line shows such pathetically low increases in the long-term modelling compared to all the other lines, once the network is complete.

One of the trip time losses is the Rocket trains due to their extremely slow door opening and closing times compared to older trains.  Trip from Finch to Queen used to be at least 3 minutes faster before the new trains came about.  ATC won't help with the door issue, but should help with the north bound travel times for trains approaching Finch Station.  From my daily (pre pandemic) commute: southbound around 7:15-7:30 from Finch to Queen is at best 28 min, northbound 5:30-6;30 is never better than 35 min, but more often than not 40-45 min.  In the old days it was more like 25 min from Finch to Queen.

Also, what exactly do you mean by "The station downtown with the most arrivals in AM peak is Dundas"? 

Finally, walking a long the street from King Station to Union is less than 15 minutes even with people on the street,  In the Path it would be slightly less efficient since it is less direct than outside.

[nfitz]

Doors don't seem to have added much south of Bloor or on the University line. North of Bloor extra time all seemed to be slow orders for track, and work areas. But I'm more often on Line 2 than 1 (or I used to be BC).

What the times like ... say between Wilson and Union now, compared to the old trains, without the track issues, and with ATC completed?

[Mike]

 

1 hour ago, nfitz said:

Doors don't seem to have added much south of Bloor or on the University line. 

Doors add the same amount of time per station regardless of where the station is located.

[nfitz]

6 hours ago, Mike said:

Doors add the same amount of time per station regardless of where the station is located.

Precisely! I haven't observed much change - not now it's all been in place for a while. I have observed the trip north of Bloor to Eglinton is slower than it used to be - I don't think it's doors.

In AM rush hour, there are more passengers egressing at Dundas station than any other station south of Bloor. The Richmond Hill GO doesn't help anyone who is exiting north of Queen, or entering south of Highway 7. And little to those using King ... as far are going to choose to take the Richmond Hill line with it's infrequent service, over a subway train departing every 2 minutes, that adds a 15-minute walk at the south end ... and takes longer to get from Highway 7 to Union than the subway will take to get to King!

[Gil]

On 8/5/2020 at 12:35 AM, nfitz said:

Precisely! I haven't observed much change - not now it's all been in place for a while. I have observed the trip north of Bloor to Eglinton is slower than it used to be - I don't think it's doors.

In AM rush hour, there are more passengers egressing at Dundas station than any other station south of Bloor. The Richmond Hill GO doesn't help anyone who is exiting north of Queen, or entering south of Highway 7. And little to those using King ... as far are going to choose to take the Richmond Hill line with it's infrequent service, over a subway train departing every 2 minutes, that adds a 15-minute walk at the south end ... and takes longer to get from Highway 7 to Union than the subway will take to get to King!

I'm willing to bet the majority of the traffic at Dundas is headed to Ryerson.  Without the UPass or even the GO Transit co-fare, I remember a lot of students just walking up from Union unless they were running late for class.  As to whether the title of busiest station south of Bloor (Dundas outranked Union?!) shifts to Queen once the new Line 3 (DRL/Ontario Line) is completed remains to be seen.  Will Queen be central enough to disperse passengers without having to switch lines?

The increased length of the Yonge line will also probably mean additional trips being short turned just so people can board further south.  Depending on the balance of trains crossing Steeles (or Finch) they may be able to manage the downstream crowds.

[Gil]

Is the High Tech station marginally making the Yonge extension longer?  It seems the stations are shifting slightly northward with Langstaff/Longbridge and Richmond Hill Centre now becoming Bridge and High Tech.  Couldn't they just keep the Langstaff name since it would match the existing GO station?  Using a surface alignment along the Richmond Hill GO line would likely cut down on the line's cost while potentially opening up further northward extensions.

[Xtrazsteve]

6 hours ago, Gil said:

Is the High Tech station marginally making the Yonge extension longer?  It seems the stations are shifting slightly northward with Langstaff/Longbridge and Richmond Hill Centre now becoming Bridge and High Tech.  Couldn't they just keep the Langstaff name since it would match the existing GO station?  Using a surface alignment along the Richmond Hill GO line would likely cut down on the line's cost while potentially opening up further northward extensions.

I don't think these would be the final names. Langstaff and Richmond Hill Centre would be better. Hopefully they don't go for Richmond Hill Urban Core Centre or Richmond Hill Metropolitan Centre Station. At that point they might as well call it Langstaff-Bridge Centre Connection with VIVA Rapid Bus Transit and GO Reginal Bus and Train Service Station!

 

Option 3 already makes the line longer because of the curve.

[Gil]

If/When the extension to Richmond Hill Centre/High Tech is built I hope Richmond Hill doesn't start clamouring for a further extension north into town.  The tail tracks and storage are slated to extend north past the station, so "just a little bit further" isn't beyond the realm of possibility for future governments at various levels.  Hopefully VIVA Silver along Jane is enough that there aren't calls to extend the Spadina end as well.

[lip]

^Oh you know they will. That's why i've been "clamoring" for an impenetrable barrier to be constructed at the end of Vaughan Metropolitan station, and for the Richmond Hill Centre station, that's literally the only way to stop the line from being extended further. With our endless supply of idiot politicians, there will be calls to extend this thing into Barrie.

And for those who think i'm kidding, just look at how Doug Ford mused in the past about extending subways to Pickering. As realistic or not you may think that may be, it's not beyond the realm of possibilities in Ontario transit builds.

[smallspy]

Provided that the whole of the Greater Toronto Area continues growing the way it has, and with particular emphasis on the Yonge Corridor, there will always be a "future need" to extend the line further north. The ridership growth on the whole corridor has been too great historically to ignore it.

 

It may not happen in my lifetime, or yours, but it will eventually happen.

 

Dan

[81-717]

6 hours ago, lip said:

That's why i've been "clamoring" for an impenetrable barrier to be constructed at the end of Vaughan Metropolitan station

Actually I think it wouldn't hurt to eventually extend TYSSE from VMC straight to Canada's Wonderland (feel free to put an impenetrable barrier there).

[anyfong]

10 minutes ago, 81-717 said:

Actually I think it wouldn't hurt to eventually extend TYSSE from VMC straight to Canada's Wonderland (feel free to put an impenetrable barrier there).

The impenetrable barrier remains the lack of fare integration between the TTC and YRT. For many users, this acts like an impenetrable Berlin Wall.

Regards to the YUS line becoming too long, there are many singular transit lines that are significantly longer. In London, such examples include the Piccadilly line, and in New York, many individual services exceed the total line length of all TTC lines, and so is BART's Pittsburg to SFO service.

If such a line is built from scratch, then the most useful way to reduce travel time is to implement express services, as done in New York, obviously it's not doable in the TTC because of the lack of passing tracks.

[MRD10]

If they want to extend the Yonge subway any further than Richmond Hill, they should just transfer the segment above Steeles to YRT.

[81-717]

26 minutes ago, anyfong said:

in New York, many individual services exceed the total line length of all TTC lines

Well, not quite. According to Wikipedia, the total length of Toronto's subway lines is just under 77 km, while the longest NYC subway line (A) is 52 km from 207th to Far Rockaway (which, yes, is almost exactly twice as long as Line 2 in Toronto, and significantly longer than Line 1).

[Gil]

Extending it up to Major Mackenzie would serve Vaughan Mills, Canada's Wonderland and the new Mackenzie Health Centre/Hospital.  If they ever want to seriously consider closing the loop there's plenty of room at Wonderland to make the turn eastward to the Yonge branch.  It would copy (or is that the eventual point?) the proposed VIVA Silver.

[Mike]

Canada's Wonderland is a seasonal destination do we really need to run a subway to it when buses would suffice?  Likewise I don't see Vaughan Mills as a destination for carless shoppers.  

There is very questionable benefits to people in Toronto from extending the subway further than highway 7 in York Region.  One could argue that extending from Finch to Hwy 7 will reduce bus traffic south of Steeles and reduce car traffic as well as most of those that park at Finch would instead park at Hwy 7 lots.  This is what has been observed from extension north of Downsview where the lot at Downsview is not as heavily used and most lots at Wilson have now been redeveloped.  

Extensions north of Hwy 7 wouldn't yield additional benefits since the people there would already be parking at lots north of Steeles.  

[GTAmissions1]

43 minutes ago, Mike said:

Canada's Wonderland is a seasonal destination do we really need to run a subway to it when buses would suffice?  Likewise I don't see Vaughan Mills as a destination for carless shoppers.  

There is very questionable benefits to people in Toronto from extending the subway further than highway 7 in York Region.  One could argue that extending from Finch to Hwy 7 will reduce bus traffic south of Steeles and reduce car traffic as well as most of those that park at Finch would instead park at Hwy 7 lots.  This is what has been observed from extension north of Downsview where the lot at Downsview is not as heavily used and most lots at Wilson have now been redeveloped.  

Extensions north of Hwy 7 wouldn't yield additional benefits since the people there would already be parking at lots north of Steeles.  

The 20 Jane already runs pretty frequent and operates with articulated buses to handle the volume. Especially with Viva Silver still on the books which can easily be scaled during the summer to handle with additional buses if needed. 

Building a subway extension isn't cheap especially with the Scarborough Subway Extension costing $5.5 billion for 7.8 kilometres. Of course the extension from Finch to Highway 7 (Richmond Hill Centre) is already planned. Just have to get funding for the project which is already pegged at $5.5 billion for 7.4 kilometres. Having to manage carefully on how to build that extension out. 

[Gil]

9 hours ago, Mike said:

Canada's Wonderland is a seasonal destination do we really need to run a subway to it when buses would suffice?  Likewise I don't see Vaughan Mills as a destination for carless shoppers.  

There is very questionable benefits to people in Toronto from extending the subway further than highway 7 in York Region.  One could argue that extending from Finch to Hwy 7 will reduce bus traffic south of Steeles and reduce car traffic as well as most of those that park at Finch would instead park at Hwy 7 lots.  This is what has been observed from extension north of Downsview where the lot at Downsview is not as heavily used and most lots at Wilson have now been redeveloped.  

Extensions north of Hwy 7 wouldn't yield additional benefits since the people there would already be parking at lots north of Steeles.  

I'm not currently advocating for an extension of the Spadina branch further north, but for those who are (much like with the Yonge branch) how far should it go?  In light of the pandemic, Canada's Wonderland has been trying to figure out how to make the amusement park more of a year-round attraction.  Ending the line there however doesn't seem wise.  There is plenty of room in their parking lot for construction.  Hence using Major Mackenzie as the "here and no further" point.  Space has been set aside at the Cortelucci Vaughan Hospital for a transit terminal.

I could also see it ending at Rutherford/Vaughan Mills if the idea is to link it back to the Yonge branch.  It could connect with the Rutherford GO station and Hillcrest Mall.  Local/VIVA Silver can handle the traffic to points further north.

I'd only consider this AFTER the VIVA Silver has been implemented and has proven successful and a higher order of transit is needed along the corridor.  Development will probably have sprawled up to Kirby Rd. by then, but hopefully the stretch up Jane will also have intensified somewhat.  Of course if Del Duca's Liberals come into power this may get a bit of a nudge.

[lip]

If Del Duca comes into power he'll be looking to extend the subway all the way through into Kirby. His stupidity has no limits.

[Mike]

1 hour ago, Gil said:

I'm not currently advocating for an extension of the Spadina branch further north, but for those who are (much like with the Yonge branch) how far should it go?  In light of the pandemic, Canada's Wonderland has been trying to figure out how to make the amusement park more of a year-round attraction.  Ending the line there however doesn't seem wise.  There is plenty of room in their parking lot for construction.  Hence using Major Mackenzie as the "here and no further" point.  Space has been set aside at the Cortelucci Vaughan Hospital for a transit terminal.

I could also see it ending at Rutherford/Vaughan Mills if the idea is to link it back to the Yonge branch.  It could connect with the Rutherford GO station and Hillcrest Mall.  Local/VIVA Silver can handle the traffic to points further north.

I'd only consider this AFTER the VIVA Silver has been implemented and has proven successful and a higher order of transit is needed along the corridor.  Development will probably have sprawled up to Kirby Rd. by then, but hopefully the stretch up Jane will also have intensified somewhat.  Of course if Del Duca's Liberals come into power this may get a bit of a nudge.

Intensification is happening at Hwy 7, it’s unlikely to happen north of Portage as there is a pretty “dense” renovation themed area up there (tiles, vanities, etc..).  There are huge developments around the subway and on the lands occupied by the former AMC theatre and beside IKEA.  To get to Major Mac it’s 6km which would be too expensive to justify the costs of construction.  
 

What is the reason to want to connect the subway to Hillcrest Mall?  Is our goal to connect the Yonge line to every single mall?  Then we might as well tunnel to Upper Canada mall.   Yonge extension is already connecting to Langstaff Station - is there any reason to also connect it Richmond Hill GO station?

If we have have billions to burn we should spend them wisely and build more subways where you would get the most riders - I.e. within Toronto.

[Mark Walton]

On 6/23/2021 at 8:51 PM, Gil said:

Extending it up to Major Mackenzie would serve Vaughan Mills, Canada's Wonderland and the new Mackenzie Health Centre/Hospital.  If they ever want to seriously consider closing the loop there's plenty of room at Wonderland to make the turn eastward to the Yonge branch.  It would copy (or is that the eventual point?) the proposed VIVA Silver.

And the north end of CN MacMillan Yard, including the diesel shop.