Miscellaneous TTC Discussion & Questions

[T3G]

dont take the idea too far other way, either.

Wasn't my intention to do so, just curious. Sorry if it came across that way.

Were there as many complaints back then as there are now? This is precisely the reason why subways are my favorite mode of transportation, no HF/LF, and a lot quicker.

As for the good old days, I'm guessing it's because of nostalgia associated with the vehicles that ran during said era? Many people like the GM New Looks and such buses for that reason, even if they aren't very good when it comes to accommodating wheelchair passengers.

[pccstreetcar4549]

dont take the idea too far other way, either.

Short answer was- they didn't . They were marginalized,institutionalized, and otherwise swept under the rug .

People refer to them as the 'good ol' days'. In many, many ways, I fail to see what was so good about them.

+1

though when in come to how things are made, they definatly bulit things better in the past to last, everything we buy today is made to be thrown away and doesnt last as long, i had a cable box that lasted just 6 years untill it died..... thats woefully not long compared to a sony tv from 1991 that lasted untill 2008

[Shaun]

Think about it...today we have to think about AC, Safety, Wheel Chair Lifts, emissions, and a whole bunch of other things. It's not the same anymore.

If you think fishbowls are great they were for their time. But they cant accommodate wheel chairs, dont have AC and are not friendly to the environment.

You cant just say that what was made in the past was the better.

Are toys made with lead paint better than toys made today?

[Grapejuice]

Think about it...today we have to think about AC, Safety, Wheel Chair Lifts, emissions, and a whole bunch of other things. It's not the same anymore.

If you think fishbowls are great they were for their time. But they cant accommodate wheel chairs, dont have AC and are not friendly to the environment.

You cant just say that what was made in the past was the better.

Are toys made with lead paint better than toys made today?

Putting aside all those things (A/C is NOT a requirement BTW it's a comfort that TTC has decided to provide as a customer service type thing), also I can not nor do I attempt to speak for everyone who pines for the days of the GM. I can say what I like about them was the style, the fascination that something I once rode to high school I was now driving, and the over all feel of how they drove. If there were some fantasy scenario that they were retrofitted with wheelchair access of some form, no matter how much that slowed me down I would still gladly drive one. Now back to reality and all those things no longer aside. Progress has been made in many areas. The ability for someone with a mobility device like a wheelchair to go out to any random bus stop wait for the first bus to come along board it and be on their way is absolutely great!

[T3G]

Think about it...today we have to think about AC,

A/C is not required. Long ago, we had A/C-less vehicles and we got on just fine.

That being said, it is nice to have, and I certainly do not/did not envy individuals riding the H4s or the streetcars in the summer.

[FlyerD901]

I notice Malvern sent out more LF buses than Orion Vs today on 509. As for accessibilty, I do think TTC should have something temporary in place before the new streetcars come. Some one made a good point about the lack of accsessible E-W routes under the BD line. Something like keeping the 502 shuttles running, and extending it to VP station in the east and Bathurst Station in the west like the old routing running the west 7 days a week. Some of you will say there is a lack of money for this servce, but honestly we all seen TTC waste money on stupidness, at least here it helps out a bit. A route like 145 can absorb route 508 ( or the other way around) without the extra fare. temporary untill the new streetcars come around. Apparently route 145 as low ridership, at least this can help out.

Something Buschic should fight for.

[Bus_Medic]

She would, but she's not even a resident of this city anymore. Now she has the fine people at Halifax metro to harass.

[shambala]

She would, but she's not even a resident of this city anymore. Now she has the fine people at Halifax metro to harass.

God help them. You forgot, she still harasses everyone on this board too.

[new.flyer.408]

Yes I can and I will say that.

You're absolutely right. That's why (internal combustion) vehicles in the past pollute emit a ton more carbon equivalent material into the atmosphere than any vehicle today. Or that problems with them are dealt with after-the-fact rather than during design and manufacture, like wheelchair lifts and emissions control.

This doesn't only apply to vehicles, but it's the best example. Hell a more relateable example is the use of highways to travel from suburb to city core - which is asinine if you can build a city that's walkable and served with good transit, like in streetcar suburbs.

I will not deny that some products manufactured today are stupid and poorly designed. But I certainly won't go as far as to say products manufactured in the past are the best either.

[pccstreetcar4549]

You're absolutely right. That's why (internal combustion) vehicles in the past pollute emit a ton more carbon equivalent material into the atmosphere than any vehicle today. Or that problems with them are dealt with after-the-fact rather than during design and manufacture, like wheelchair lifts and emissions control.

This doesn't only apply to vehicles, but it's the best example.

I will not deny that some products manufactured today are stupid and poorly designed. But I certainly won't go as far as to say products manufactured in the past are the best either.

fair enough, TVS are an example of that, the early ones needed constant adjustment, thats why there were tv repairmen, something thats not needed/ cost effective anymore, most of the time its cheaper to get a new one.........

but i think we are getting way off topic, this is after all a TTC thread......

[T3G]

Yes I can and I will say that.

+100

You're absolutely right. That's why (internal combustion) vehicles in the past pollute emit a ton more carbon equivalent material into the atmosphere than any vehicle today. Or that problems with them are dealt with after-the-fact rather than during design and manufacture, like wheelchair lifts and emissions control.

Don't quote me on this, but didn't the two Edmonton BBCs that Dayton pick up get equipped with lifts?

Clean trolley... wheelchair accessible... fishbowl body... everybody wins.

[new.flyer.408]

Isn't that still dealing with the problem after it was built...? You're still adding a cost that didn't have to be there if it was designed with accessibility in mind.

Also, I think of buses in this way. What did we use prior to them? Streetcars. And we used buses with end fuels. Why?! The technology to produce clean electricity was there but we had to use end fuels.

They also facilitated sprawl and ineffective public transit, but that's a discussion for another day

Also, electricity is NOT an energy source, but an energy carrier.

[D. DeLarge]

Let's put it this way.

There wasn't the accessibility concerns back then as there are today. There wasn't the environmental push for green, or anti-pollution attitude in the past when things like the GM New Look was designed. If there was, there would probably be a lot more systems that would have pushed to keep their "green" electric interurban lines and streetcars than move to bus. The private automobile gaining popularity coupled with aging trolley infrastructure, increase in paved roadways, etc, probably made rubber-tired transit vehicles a logical replacement, not to mention the alleged GM streetcar conspiracy. There were no emissions standards, oil was still relatively cheap, and R&D and technology wasn't advanced to the point where they were cranking out high HP from small engines yet like they do today.

If you're taking things designed and built back in a different time in society and trying to make them fit society's modern views and values today, when so much has changed, obviously they won't be a perfect fit. Was the fishbowl rugged, reliable, simple, cheap? Yes. Is it environmentally-friendly, low-floor accessible, air-conditioned? No. It doesn't meet todays' standards simply because it wasn't designed to meet them 50-some odd years ago when the brains at GM were brainstorming what their next bus would be like. Blanket-statements saying that it or any other bus or product built decades in the past is a bad product because it doesn't conform to today's standards, when they weren't even on the map yet, is throwing context out the window, not to mention how well the actual product did what it was designed and intended for...

...of which, overall, the GM New Look hit a grand-slam.

[smallspy]

Yes I can and I will say that.

So, you'd much rather still be using your 8088-powered DOS-based "clone", equipped with a pair of 5 1/4" floppies, and a 12" monochrome monitor? Maybe a circa 1986 "brick" cellular telephone, or natch, a pager?

Dan

[BBC 9197]

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/ttc/article/1261095--faulty-ttc-wheelchair-lifts-violate-man-s-dignity

I can understand because it can take up to 10 minutes to board someone with a wheel chair lift on a high floor bus, and with drivers trying to maintain schedules i can understand that they would make up excuses.

If the operator of a V knows what they're doing it shouldn't take much longer then a lowfloor to board a wheelchair.

The ramps on the lowfloor's aren't as reliable as they should be and due to safety reasons operators are no longer encouraged to manually deploy them, I've seen why first hand.

I hope that the new artics feature fold-up wheelchair or "accessibility" seats similar to the Viva buses or the TR's (though I hope they would be sturdier and more comfortable).

[eja2k]

The ramps on the lowfloor's aren't as reliable as they should be and due to safety reasons operators are no longer encouraged to manually deploy them, I've seen why first hand.

They should just put a wheel trans-esk hook on every bus for manual deployment... stow it behind the drivers seat .... or mount it like a switch iron on the streetcars ... that way operators wont have to bend down to pull on the manual strap which increases the risk of back injuries. Seems like a relatively simple fix that would improve customer service and reduce the "lazy operator" suggestions ...

[T3G]

Isn't that still dealing with the problem after it was built...? You're still adding a cost that didn't have to be there if it was designed with accessibility in mind.

I don't think that people in 1959 ever dreamed of wheelchair accessible buses. Feel free to correct me on this, but IIRC the first wheelchair-accessible bus was either the Orion V or the D40LF (no idea if the early Vs could come with lifts).

In any case, we got our money's worth out of them, regardless of any "shortcomings".

Is it air-conditioned?

Yes... there were GMs built with A/C.

[Articulated]

I don't think that people in 1959 ever dreamed of wheelchair accessible buses. Feel free to correct me on this, but IIRC the first wheelchair-accessible bus was either the Orion V or the D40LF (no idea if the early Vs could come with lifts).

The Orion II was fully low floor and began production in 1983. (Yes, normal transits used them quite frequently for regular scheduled service, not just paratransit). The Orion II was one of the first fully low floor buses but earlier buses were accessible to wheelchairs too.

The Americans with Disabilities Act was passed in 1990, at which time all systems needed to have wheelchair-accessible buses; therefore it's a reasonable assumption that manufacturers were making models with wheelchair lifts well before this.

[T3G]

The Orion II was fully low floor and began production in 1983. (Yes, normal transits used them quite frequently for regular scheduled service, not just paratransit). The Orion II was one of the first fully low floor buses but earlier buses were accessible to wheelchairs too.

The Americans with Disabilities Act was passed in 1990, at which time all systems needed to have wheelchair-accessible buses; therefore it's a reasonable assumption that manufacturers were making models with wheelchair lifts well before this.

Ah, I see. I didn't know that, thanks for the correction.

My original point still stands, though... I doubt GM in 1959 could have foreseen the possibility of wheelchair accessible buses.

[smallspy]

The 2 stroke engines may pollute more but they can be thrown out of an airplane and would still run. You get a check engine in a newer bus and its the end of the world.

When a rad hose on a 6V-71 goes, you loose all the coolant before the block seizes because the oil overheats and cooks. You end up replacing the hose and half of the engine (provided the block isn't damaged - in which case it's the whole engine). On a modern bus if the rad hose goes, the computer senses the problem and shuts down the bus before the motor gets damaged. You replace a 4 dollar hose, refill the coolant and off you go.

Dan

[Bus_Medic]

2 strokes can leave you stranded from time to time also.

A broken blower drive shaft will leave you dead in the water, a bad fuel pressure switch will prevent it from cranking.

Only on a 2 cycle have I ever seen an engine consume oil so badly, that it actually burned in entire crankcase's worth of 30 weight in only 48 hours. Then there's the black puddles they leave everywhere.....

Did I mention they also have a propensity for running away and exploding?

When a rad hose on a 6V-71 goes, you loose all the coolant before the block seizes because the oil overheats and cooks. You end up replacing the hose and half of the engine (provided the block isn't damaged - in which case it's the whole engine). On a modern bus if the rad hose goes, the computer senses the problem and shuts down the bus before the motor gets damaged. You replace a 4 dollar hose, refill the coolant and off you go.

Dan

if it does, more than likely cylinder gases are migrating into the water jacket, pressurizing it till the weak link bursts.

At least one of the heads will have to come off anyway for a head gasket or injector tube.

[shambala]

. Seems like a relatively simple fix that would improve customer service and reduce the "lazy operator" suggestions ...

It is and it would, maybe that's why it hasn't been implemented or even suggested. No reason why TTC couldn't do that if they wanted to.

[Turtle]

They should just put a wheel trans-esk hook on every bus for manual deployment... stow it behind the drivers seat .... or mount it like a switch iron on the streetcars ... that way operators wont have to bend down to pull on the manual strap which increases the risk of back injuries. Seems like a relatively simple fix that would improve customer service and reduce the "lazy operator" suggestions ...

The difference is those wheel trans ramps are completely manual, you don't have to fight against hydraulic pressure to deploy or stow it. The main problem is some of those busted ramps are hard to move manually, even before factoring in bending over to heave on to a small filthy strap.

[Shaun]

I realize that.. I just don't like delays in service because of little things. Keep things simple so they run better.

So you rather drive the bus with a malfunction until you cause so much damage that it wont run anymore? Just so that you can arrive at your destination?

You rather ignore environmental and safety standards for the sake of keeping it simple?

[Robert Lubinski]

Let's put it this way.

There wasn't the accessibility concerns back then as there are today. There wasn't the environmental push for green, or anti-pollution attitude in the past when things like the GM New Look was designed. If there was, there would probably be a lot more systems that would have pushed to keep their "green" electric interurban lines and streetcars than move to bus. The private automobile gaining popularity coupled with aging trolley infrastructure, increase in paved roadways, etc, probably made rubber-tired transit vehicles a logical replacement, not to mention the alleged GM streetcar conspiracy. There were no emissions standards, oil was still relatively cheap, and R&D and technology wasn't advanced to the point where they were cranking out high HP from small engines yet like they do today.

If you're taking things designed and built back in a different time in society and trying to make them fit society's modern views and values today, when so much has changed, obviously they won't be a perfect fit. Was the fishbowl rugged, reliable, simple, cheap? Yes. Is it environmentally-friendly, low-floor accessible, air-conditioned? No. It doesn't meet todays' standards simply because it wasn't designed to meet them 50-some odd years ago when the brains at GM were brainstorming what their next bus would be like. Blanket-statements saying that it or any other bus or product built decades in the past is a bad product because it doesn't conform to today's standards, when they weren't even on the map yet, is throwing context out the window, not to mention how well the actual product did what it was designed and intended for...

...of which, overall, the GM New Look hit a grand-slam.

If GM were still building fishbowl-type buses today, they would be accessible and have the most modern equipment inside them, but the body might still look the same as the fume-belchers of 50 years ago. Who knows, they might have come up with a low-floor version while retaining the same styling.

Context is everything. Taking something historical out of context for its time is pointless. It's like saying your great-grandfather was a complete idiot because he had certain beliefs and morals of his time that in today's society would be probably considered totally unacceptable. It doesn't make any sense. Some old things have held up against the test of time, most have been surpassed a hundred times over. I have a 1968-vintage GE toaster at home that works as well as the day it was made, but a 1968 TV is totally obsolete.