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Miscellaneous TTC Discussion & Questions

Orion V

By Orion V
in Greater Toronto Area

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MK78

MK78

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Orion V said:

Having had a short ride of the 34xx, I noticed they don't have the sudden jerk of the Orion hybrids from a full stop. Is it because of my driver was accelerating as slow as possible or the new type of hybrid toned down the acceleration?

They sound just like the LFS diesels except it never shifts. And no whine sound like the Orion hybrids.

I was on the 3422 today, on 21 Brimley going to SCT. My initial impressions:

  • Seems a lot louder than a Diesel Nova. I sat in the back seats on purpose, and the engine sound was rough and very boomy inside the bus. I had a quick look at a decibel meter app on my phone and the max was ~105db. Not a scientific measurement by any means but it did appear significantly louder. I took a ride back to Kennedy on a Orion NG Hybrid and it was a LOT quieter and engine sound was smoother.
  • The auto engine shutoff seems to kick in at some stops and not others, and doesn't seem to shut off when a bus is at the lights and does not open its doors, or just stops in traffic for a longer period. Seems to be a delay when the doors close to when the bus moves off.
  • The seats are nicely improved, especially the back double sets which have a plastic "filler" between the seats so they don't snag backpack and purse straps as I've seen oh-so-many times.
  • USB ports are neat, lots of them everywhere.
  • The large LCD displays are nice, but they are stuffing the same Next Stop, Stop Request, OP #ID and Time on the same line on top, just like if it was a traditional single row LED. Lots of space wasted where those could be displayed. That may change of course as the TTC figures out what to do with all that screen real-estate.
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Xtrazsteve

Xtrazsteve

Posted
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54 minutes ago, MK78 said:

I was on the 3422 today, on 21 Brimley going to SCT. My initial impressions:

  • Seems a lot louder than a Diesel Nova. I sat in the back seats on purpose, and the engine sound was rough and very boomy inside the bus. I had a quick look at a decibel meter app on my phone and the max was ~105db. Not a scientific measurement by any means but it did appear significantly louder. I took a ride back to Kennedy on a Orion NG Hybrid and it was a LOT quieter and engine sound was smoother.
  • The auto engine shutoff seems to kick in at some stops and not others, and doesn't seem to shut off when a bus is at the lights and does not open its doors, or just stops in traffic for a longer period. Seems to be a delay when the doors close to when the bus moves off.
  • The seats are nicely improved, especially the back double sets which have a plastic "filler" between the seats so they don't snag backpack and purse straps as I've seen oh-so-many times.
  • USB ports are neat, lots of them everywhere.
  • The large LCD displays are nice, but they are stuffing the same Next Stop, Stop Request, OP #ID and Time on the same line on top, just like if it was a traditional single row LED. Lots of space wasted where those could be displayed. That may change of course as the TTC figures out what to do with all that screen real-estate.

I'm glad you got to enjoy the bus. Seating, usb ports and lcd screens are identical to the 3100s (3330+ for lcd screen). Yeah those lcd screens are pretty useless at the moment.

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MK78

MK78

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57 minutes ago, Xtrazsteve said:

I'm glad you got to enjoy the bus. Seating, usb ports and lcd screens are identical to the 3100s (3330+ for lcd screen). Yeah those lcd screens are pretty useless at the moment.

Yeah, this was the first time these newer Nova's are making their way to the east end. I wonder if the engine sound is the same in the others. Time will tell as I catch another in the future.

The Cummins B6.7  in the Nova HEV seems to be related to the one used in Dodge RAM heavy duty pickups, though I'm sure there are differences. But they don't seem that noisy in the trucks for sure. Or maybe its the generator head as well?

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Bus_Medic

Bus_Medic

Posted
Posted

While the 6.7 block and head are the same as the pickup, that’s basically where the similarity ends. These engines are categorized as industrial, and the most obvious difference is the the cam timing geartrain is located on the rear, or flywheel end. The Rams use a front geartrain version. There are some other, more minor ancillary differences, and obviously a different engine computer software template.

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Wayside Observer

Wayside Observer

Posted
Posted
On January 24, 2019 at 5:21 PM, MK78 said:

I was on the 3422 today, on 21 Brimley going to SCT. My initial impressions:

  • Seems a lot louder than a Diesel Nova. I sat in the back seats on purpose, and the engine sound was rough and very boomy inside the bus. I had a quick look at a decibel meter app on my phone and the max was ~105db. Not a scientific measurement by any means but it did appear significantly louder. I took a ride back to Kennedy on a Orion NG Hybrid and it was a LOT quieter and engine sound was smoother.

Yikes.  Well, there it is, one of the major reasons why I'm not much of a bus fan.

105 dBspl is actually pretty damn loud.  I'm assuming there's no weighting on that measurement since it's going to be limited and shaped by what the passband of the phone's microphone looks like.  That 105 number might actually be a touch low too if the phone's microphone has a narrow frequency response because it won't be accounting for the presence of acoustic energy outside of that band that's still there that you still hear and affects you.

Personally, anything that's regularly above 100 dBspl sticks out as a big problem so I checked a reference table and that puts you between jackhammer and jet engine sound levels and comfortably above the threshold for long term hearing damage and even further above the point where hearing protection's recommended.

If you want to get a bit closer to a scientific measurement, catch one of each type of bus in the off hours when it's quiet and you're not affected so much by external noise and noise from other passengers, sit in the same spot, and take measurements under similar acceleration and coasting and braking situations using the phone and application you've got.  You'd probably be able to get a pretty decent relative measurement of how much louder or quieter one type of bus is over the other.  Again, with the caveat that there won't be any accounting for energy content outside of the range of frequencies your phone's microphone can pass.

On January 24, 2019 at 5:21 PM, MK78 said:
  • The large LCD displays are nice, but they are stuffing the same Next Stop, Stop Request, OP #ID and Time on the same line on top, just like if it was a traditional single row LED. Lots of space wasted where those could be displayed. That may change of course as the TTC figures out what to do with all that screen real-estate.

It's a shame to waste such a big display.  Driving one of those LED single line text displays vs. an LCD monitor are two seriously different beasts though.  Coming up with something that makes effective use of the LCD monitor implies carrying more than just the raw text data plus maybe a bit of minor control stuff.  You need all the formatting and layout information at a minimum, plus graphics and maybe some video as well to make it good.  If the system the TTC is using to drive the displays was designed around the limitations of a single row of text, it might not be able to carry the stuff that's needed to make an attractive presentation on the LCD monitors, which would hoop the whole idea right out of the gate if that's the case.

Years and years ago, I think it was around 2005 or so, I was visiting SEPTA's Woodland shops and spent some time in the electronics lab there.  They had a side sign from an M4 Market Frankford car on one of the benches powered up off a bench supply and hooked up to a computer and the tech working on it had a terminal emulator open and was working on reverse engineering the control codes in the text tables that governed how the sign displayed the text data.  Windows wasn't handling the non-text data well.  Speaking for myself, that was definitely one situation where I'd have wanted to dump the terminal session into a file and then pick it apart in a hex editor for sure to see by numerical value exactly what's there.  Wasn't around long enough to see how their guy approached that problem though.  The main shop was busy doing cyclical overhaul work on Kawasaki streetcars as well as a couple of long term projects on them that frankly have kept their streetcar fleet in far better shape than the TTC's despite being pretty close in age but, to be fair, on the flip side, their federal government was picking up the lion's share of the costs on that too.

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7575

7575

Posted
Posted
19 minutes ago, BusFanForever said:

It is sitting at Hillcrest behind Davenport garage with several other damaged Nova's. The radiator/cac assembly and various other parts have been removed presumably to be used on other buses. 

Okay thanks.

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MCIBUS

MCIBUS

Posted
Posted

TTC SHOP?

 

I remember years ago the TTC had a TTC shop at Davisiville(I think that was the place ? ) Anyway is the shop still there? or to buy TTC items you can only buy them on line? I'm interested in getting the TTC bus from Rapido?

 

As far as I know the TTC & STM have a on line shop where you can buy transit related items geared towards the company(not talking about other web sites that catter  to mutli bus items)

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Subwayboy

Subwayboy

Posted
Posted
10 hours ago, MCIBUS said:

TTC SHOP?

I remember years ago the TTC had a TTC shop at Davisiville(I think that was the place ? ) Anyway is the shop still there? or to buy TTC items you can only buy them on line? I'm interested in getting the TTC bus from Rapido?

 

As far as I know the TTC & STM have a on line shop where you can buy transit related items geared towards the company(not talking about other web sites that catter  to mutli bus items)

I don't remember a shop at Davisville Station. I do know there was a pop-up shop called TRANSIT STUFF at TTC's Union Station in the early 2000's. They were operateI don't remember a shop at Davisville Station. I do know there was a pop-up shop called TRANSIT STUFF at TTC's Union Station in the early 2000's. They were operated by Legacy Sportswear I believe. George's Trains up in Markham have some TTC items like the Bachmann PCC and Peter Witt, I've seen the GM New Looks there as well!d by Legacy Sportswear I believe. George's Trains up in Markham have some TTC items like the Bachmann PCC and Peter Witt, I've seen the GM New Looks there as well!

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Ed T.

Ed T.

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As I recall, it was possible to get TTC paraphernalia in a little shop on the ground floor of the TTC building at Davisville. It was only the licenced stuff. This would have been late '80s I guess--the TTC didn't have time or money for 'frivolities' in the '90s.

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Orion VI

Orion VI

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, MCIBUS said:

TTC SHOP?

 

I remember years ago the TTC had a TTC shop at Davisiville(I think that was the place ? ) Anyway is the shop still there? or to buy TTC items you can only buy them on line? I'm interested in getting the TTC bus from Rapido?

 

As far as I know the TTC & STM have a on line shop where you can buy transit related items geared towards the company(not talking about other web sites that catter  to mutli bus items)

From what I have gathered:

 

Rapido New Look is sold out, may run another production run, but we'll have to wait and see, If you want a New Look (non-HO) right now, you can go for the Corgi model that they sell at George's Trains. I think somewhere around $215?

The TTC shop is online, and sometimes they have a pop-up shop when there is a Doors Open, or a TTC event open to the public, they might have a little booth with a table and some items. The items are the ones they are currently selling at the time on the website. Somtimes if there is an event at Hillcrest, they'll have a shop in the cafeteria, where you can buy these types of things.

Yeah, the shop at Davisville isn't there anymore, but you can buy the items online.

 

Thanks,

VI

AFTER CHECKING: the TTC shop has the New Looks now. (Rapido)

Edited by Orion VI
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MK78

MK78

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22 hours ago, Wayside Observer said:

It's a shame to waste such a big display.  Driving one of those LED single line text displays vs. an LCD monitor are two seriously different beasts though.  Coming up with something that makes effective use of the LCD monitor implies carrying more than just the raw text data plus maybe a bit of minor control stuff.  You need all the formatting and layout information at a minimum, plus graphics and maybe some video as well to make it good.  If the system the TTC is using to drive the displays was designed around the limitations of a single row of text, it might not be able to carry the stuff that's needed to make an attractive presentation on the LCD monitors, which would hoop the whole idea right out of the gate if that's the case.

Yeah I'm sure they have plans how to utilize the real estate... I have a feeling one of the boxes will be used for advertising, and the other for service announcements, like subway delays, detours, or closures. They have to monetize the displays, I can almost guarantee it, or there would be no point in having them over the single line LED signs.

Another question is, will they retrofit other vehicles with these LCD screens at some point. Maybe during a rebuild, at least the Nova's.

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Doppelkupplung

Doppelkupplung

Posted
Posted
On 1/25/2019 at 9:52 PM, Wayside Observer said:

Personally, anything that's regularly above 100 dBspl sticks out as a big problem so I checked a reference table and that puts you between jackhammer and jet engine sound levels and comfortably above the threshold for long term hearing damage and even further above the point where hearing protection's recommended.

Obvious to say, but this must be why most GO SuperLo ops wear ear plugs, those things are very loud in the lower deck. I don't know what it is but I'm curious as to why they are like this, because their predecessors have essentially the same engine but way quieter. And its not dissimilar to how TTCs 79 and 8000s are noisewise from the inside. 

But returning back to Novas, I think this noise issue is consistent and related with the "rear heated bench" feature, which for the record, seems to be standard equipment, not an optional extra.

4 hours ago, MK78 said:

Yeah I'm sure they have plans how to utilize the real estate... I have a feeling one of the boxes will be used for advertising, and the other for service announcements, like subway delays, detours, or closures. They have to monetize the displays, I can almost guarantee it, or there would be no point in having them over the single line LED signs.

Re advertising- what about the panels on the side? Plenty of space there. The last thing a rider wants to see when trying to make their connection is a pizza ad. 

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Orion V

Orion V

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Posted
On 1/24/2019 at 3:48 PM, Bus_Medic said:

 So much has been revised on these new hybrids, there are fewer similarities than differences. Operating characistics are simply an uploaded laptop file, so no doubt it’s different. Tweaks are likely ongoing too.

The whine is due to (for lack of a better term) an aluminum “turbine” impeller assembly mounted inside the traction generator on the older hybrids to move air through the field windings. Not the greatest design feature, as it introduces road grit (abrasive) and salt spray (conductive) in between the tiny gap between the spinning permanent magnets and the copper field coils. Since they’ve typically charging the batteries at anywhere from 450-600v, it doesn’t take much for the polyester coating on the wire to nick and flash over. Makes an oily, salty mud when the rear main crank seal fails too.

Now that they have their own self contained oil cooling, the combined generator and traction motor assembly is hermetically sealed, so no more fan.

Thanks.

I can't remember if this was asked 9 years ago but why are the MiWay 2010 Orion hybrids sound and accelerate so differently than TTC's 2007-2009s? They are essentially still BAE 1st gen series hybrid only with a EPA2010 engine is it not?.

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Kobayashi

Kobayashi

Posted
Posted
On 1/24/2019 at 5:21 PM, MK78 said:

I was on the 3422 today, on 21 Brimley going to SCT. My initial impressions:

  • Seems a lot louder than a Diesel Nova. I sat in the back seats on purpose, and the engine sound was rough and very boomy inside the bus. I had a quick look at a decibel meter app on my phone and the max was ~105db. Not a scientific measurement by any means but it did appear significantly louder. I took a ride back to Kennedy on a Orion NG Hybrid and it was a LOT quieter and engine sound was smoother.
  • The auto engine shutoff seems to kick in at some stops and not others, and doesn't seem to shut off when a bus is at the lights and does not open its doors, or just stops in traffic for a longer period. Seems to be a delay when the doors close to when the bus moves off.
  • The seats are nicely improved, especially the back double sets which have a plastic "filler" between the seats so they don't snag backpack and purse straps as I've seen oh-so-many times.
  • USB ports are neat, lots of them everywhere.
  • The large LCD displays are nice, but they are stuffing the same Next Stop, Stop Request, OP #ID and Time on the same line on top, just like if it was a traditional single row LED. Lots of space wasted where those could be displayed. That may change of course as the TTC figures out what to do with all that screen real-estate.

The series hybrid I later found out they used is the BAE HybriDrive Series-E. It usually shuts the engine off when the bus picks up customers or on a layover. This is quite different and comparable to the original HybriDrive on the 2006-09 Orions which keeps the ISB engines running. 

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MK78

MK78

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7 hours ago, Doppelkupplung said:

Re advertising- what about the panels on the side? Plenty of space there. The last thing a rider wants to see when trying to make their connection is a pizza ad. 

Not like we have a choice in many places. Including video signage on subway platforms. As long as there is no audio on the bus screen ads, it can easily be ignored. The TTC needs revenue wherever they can get it. 

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Bus_Medic

Bus_Medic

Posted
Posted
9 hours ago, Orion V said:

Thanks.

I can't remember if this was asked 9 years ago but why are the MiWay 2010 Orion hybrids sound and accelerate so differently than TTC's 2007-2009s? They are essentially still BAE 1st gen series hybrid only with a EPA2010 engine is it not?.

Nope. 2nd gen. so what I posted applies to them also. From way I understand, they were one of the first to recieve them.

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Orion V

Orion V

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2 hours ago, Bus_Medic said:

Nope. 2nd gen. so what I posted applies to them also. From way I understand, they were one of the first to recieve them.

So basically you guys already have a system close by where you can see the long term reliability (they've been using it for almost 9 years) of this 2nd gen hybrid system instead of being the guinea pigs like the 1st gens where you guys found problems out yourselves.

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Bus_Medic

Bus_Medic

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Posted
38 minutes ago, Orion V said:

So basically you guys already have a system close by where you can see the long term reliability (they've been using it for almost 9 years) of this 2nd gen hybrid system instead of being the guinea pigs like the 1st gens where you guys found problems out yourselves.

In a broad sense, yes.

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Orion VI

Orion VI

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Posted

What ever happened to this?

https://www.timeout.com/newyork/blog/the-mta-just-bought-200-diesel-buses-to-use-during-the-l-train-shutdown-043017 

https://www.nyctransitforums.com/topic/50367-new-york-mta-buy-200-ex-ttc-orion-vii-diesels/?page=1 

Don't know if it's been talked about.

Says here frame issues. (If only they had inspected 7575)

https://www.nyctransitforums.com/topic/50370-addendum-nyct-buys-200-orions-from-ttcmay-not-happen/#entry923383 

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7969

7969

Posted
Posted
44 minutes ago, Orion VI said:

What ever happened to this?

https://www.timeout.com/newyork/blog/the-mta-just-bought-200-diesel-buses-to-use-during-the-l-train-shutdown-043017 

https://www.nyctransitforums.com/topic/50367-new-york-mta-buy-200-ex-ttc-orion-vii-diesels/?page=1 

Don't know if it's been talked about.

Says here frame issues. (If only they had inspected 7575)

https://www.nyctransitforums.com/topic/50370-addendum-nyct-buys-200-orions-from-ttcmay-not-happen/#entry923383 

This is a Toronto transit thread.  Please don’t post this here.  Keep it related to the TTC.

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