TTC Service Changes

[Turtle]

19 hours ago, nfitz said:

If the system wasn't overwhelmed with so many homeless people (the majority of whom don't have a drug problem), then it would have a lot more resources to deal with the drug problems. We didn't have this 10 years ago, despite big drug problems back then, with the opiod situation.

How do you help someone that doesn't want help. You can't force people to get clean. You can't force somebody to come in off the streets and live like a "normal person" in an apartment. You can't force someone to conform to your ideas of what a proper functioning and productive member of society is.

 

Some use drugs because of mental illness. Some use substances to cope with issues they are having trouble dealing with. Some mental illness is caused by substance abuse. Not every homeless person is an addict. Not every addict is homeless, there are plenty of functioning crackheads or alcoholics. Rob Ford was a great example of someone with serious issues that otherwise did okay in life, and was otherwise a great helpful person for a lot of people.

 

19 hours ago, nfitz said:

I'd be very surprised if TTC Special Constables (or whatever they are this week) aren't allowed to wake people sleeping on buses.

They can wake them up, check if they are in medical distress, but they don't forcibly remove them anymore. They ask them to step off the vehicle to go and speak with them outside. Most of the problem regulars know how to manipulate the system to their benefit, and wait until the Police show up. Even then they don't leave voluntarily. The Police don't forcibly remove people from the vehicles now either in most cases, they stand there and try to reason with the people to get them to walk off voluntarily. It's a huge joke.

 

If the person is non violent, not a threat to anybody else, the cops talk and talk and talk until the person eventually walks off on their own. It's like bribing a 5 year old to eat their peas.

 

19 hours ago, nfitz said:

Huge waste of resources for sure. But no matter who they gonna call - it's their job to make that call.

Yes, and they do. You just don't see it because all you see is the driver doing their job driving the route with the person on the bus in the back sleeping. You claim the driver isn't doing their job properly since the person is on the bus and the driver is ignoring it. What you didn't see is that driver probably called it in a half hour ago, and is driving along until somebody shows up and deals with it. Until then all you see is nothing being done about it, but in fact everybody involved did their job exactly as they were supposed to, no human rights were violated in the process.

 

The worst is taking that vehicle out of service on a route with 20 minute frequencies to have to wait for somebody to come and deal with the uncooperative sleeper.

[Kumiko Oumae]

21 minutes ago, Turtle said:

They can wake them up, check if they are in medical distress, but they don't forcibly remove them anymore. They ask them to step off the vehicle to go and speak with them outside. Most of the problem regulars know how to manipulate the system to their benefit, and wait until the Police show up. Even then they don't leave voluntarily. The Police don't forcibly remove people from the vehicles now either in most cases, they stand there and try to reason with the people to get them to walk off voluntarily. It's a huge joke.

 

If the person is non violent, not a threat to anybody else, the cops talk and talk and talk until the person eventually walks off on their own. It's like bribing a 5 year old to eat their peas.

 

Yes, and they do. You just don't see it because all you see is the driver doing their job driving the route with the person on the bus in the back sleeping. You claim the driver isn't doing their job properly since the person is on the bus and the driver is ignoring it. What you didn't see is that driver probably called it in a half hour ago, and is driving along until somebody shows up and deals with it. Until then all you see is nothing being done about it, but in fact everybody involved did their job exactly as they were supposed to, no human rights were violated in the process.

 

The worst is taking that vehicle out of service on a route with 20 minute frequencies to have to wait for somebody to come and deal with the uncooperative sleeper.

This.

Since we don’t want to derail the topic, there is something I have in mind: As the SRT is set for decommissioning in November, in terms of signage in routing, we know some routes like 38/938, 129, 939, etc are extended to Kennedy Station but would some buses display a new type of signage? For example: 129 McCOWAN NORTH / TO KENNEDY STATION (would they add the VIA SCARBOROUGH CTR for that matter?)

On the other hand, the TTC had released a set of maps for the 2024 ASP.

Ontario Line changes:

North Yonge Subway Extension:

Dufferin/King Track Work:

[CJ.]

Given the complete garbage quality of destination signs in the past couple of years, No.

[nfitz]

7 hours ago, Turtle said:

How do you help someone that doesn't want help. You can't force people to get clean. You can't force somebody to come in off the streets and live like a "normal person" in an apartment.

There's always been a few in this category. But it was never this bad on transit before. We just need to get back to where we were a decade or so ago.

Just because it will never be perfect, doesn't mean we can't be making it better. And we can be making it better.

[MK78]

3 hours ago, nfitz said:

There's always been a few in this category. But it was never this bad on transit before. We just need to get back to where we were a decade or so ago.

Just because it will never be perfect, doesn't mean we can't be making it better. And we can be making it better.

Not even a decade ago. It's a night and day difference to what's happened since COVID where they were letting all of them into the system.

[TransitMotorcoach]

12 hours ago, Turtle said:

How do you help someone that doesn't want help. You can't force people to get clean. You can't force somebody to come in off the streets and live like a "normal person" in an apartment. You can't force someone to conform to your ideas of what a proper functioning and productive member of society is.

 

Some use drugs because of mental illness. Some use substances to cope with issues they are having trouble dealing with. Some mental illness is caused by substance abuse. Not every homeless person is an addict. Not every addict is homeless, there are plenty of functioning crackheads or alcoholics. Rob Ford was a great example of someone with serious issues that otherwise did okay in life, and was otherwise a great helpful person for a lot of people.

 

They can wake them up, check if they are in medical distress, but they don't forcibly remove them anymore. They ask them to step off the vehicle to go and speak with them outside. Most of the problem regulars know how to manipulate the system to their benefit, and wait until the Police show up. Even then they don't leave voluntarily. The Police don't forcibly remove people from the vehicles now either in most cases, they stand there and try to reason with the people to get them to walk off voluntarily. It's a huge joke.

 

If the person is non violent, not a threat to anybody else, the cops talk and talk and talk until the person eventually walks off on their own. 

When it is a matter of maintaining public order and safety, the authorities need to draw the line and not give any leniency to these characters when they become a nuisance and their issues affect the safety of the public at large. If they don't want help, too bad. They have no choice.

 

The first occurrence of them being caught doing drugs, publicly intoxicated from alcohol, or overdosing, it should be an automatic involuntary stay in a drug rehab facility. Them being seen on the street talking to themselves, screaming and hollering in a psychotic state of mind, automatic indefinite stay in a psych ward until they are deemed mentally sound to be out in public again. I will even go as far to say that a stint of military-style boot camp will actually work wonders for them. You will be amazed at how effective a smoke session by a drill sergeant is with correcting problem behaviors. 

 

For those who say I am authoritarian and a dictator, it does not bother me one bit. If maintaining public order and safety means taking draconian measures against these characters that deprive them of their human rights,  so be it. The current approach has been a complete failure, the equivalent of immature teenagers running a high school instead of the principal. Time for the adults to enter the room and clean house, as unpleasant as it may be.

[nfitz]

13 hours ago, TransitMotorcoach said:

For those who say I am authoritarian and a dictator, it does not bother me one bit. 

It doesn't bother actual dictators either.

The problem is, it isn't particularly effective, as having programs full of people who are there against their will may even impact others in the program. Those such a solution do work for, would likely go voluntarily anyhow, with the right support and motivation. We are better served in the long run by doing it property. But the starting point is dealing with the housing issue.

But even I agree that forced institutionalization may be necessary for those that are running around on transit saying they are going to shoot everyone - even if they don't mean it.

 

13 hours ago, MK78 said:

Not even a decade ago. It's a night and day difference to what's happened since COVID where they were letting all of them into the system.

Yes, that's true. Though anecdotally the homeless situation, based on what I see downtown, had deteriorated even before that; maybe since about 2012 or so. Though seemed to have been improving before that. But it wasn't moving onto transit like it has been for the last couple of years.

Entirely anecdotal though - it would be interesting to see real data.

[MK78]

20 hours ago, TransitMotorcoach said:

When it is a matter of maintaining public order and safety, the authorities need to draw the line and not give any leniency to these characters when they become a nuisance and their issues affect the safety of the public at large. If they don't want help, too bad. They have no choice.

 

Something does have to be done, to maintain public trust & safety. The soft approach to allowing the open air drug dens has not worked, in any city in north america. streets have become mental asylums without the help.

To me, the idea of giving drug supplies to drug addicts is just beyond my comprehension.

It hasn't been enough that people get shot, stabbed, set on fire, pushed down the tracks. They don't want to lock these people away.

Today some nutbar kicked and spat on woman TTC employee on a subway train at Warden.

[yrt1000]

Per Steve Munro, starting July 4 the 503 Kingston Rd. will be operating every day until 8pm by buses. Citing the poor service reliability, the 505 will turn back at Woodbine Loop until 8pm, and after 8pm go to Bingham Loop. Unfortunately for passengers, the 503 service will be RAD buses, so they won’t be trackable.

It also says that starting July 30, the 503 buses will operate until 1am every day

Details can be found here:

https://stevemunro.ca/2023/06/30/changes-to-kingston-road-and-st-clair-ave-w-services/

[Articulated]

The TTC announced the same service changes on their website and social media today. This change formalizes the 503 shuttle that's been operating semi-officially with RAD buses (as 501/504) since last board period, and I guess the schedules will reflect this with the next board period in July. In addition to what's been mentioned above, all 506 cars will turn back at Broadview, and will not continue to Queen/Kingston (something they rarely actually did in service).

It's highly unusual for the TTC to be implementing such significant routing changes as part of a mid-board change; that kind of indicates the level of problems that has been happening on the ground, largely due to inadequate running time and general congestion from trying to operate three major streetcar routes through one street/intersection.

Additionally, 512 St Clair streetcars will return to Gunns Loop on Wednesday July 5th, at which time the 47/512 shuttle will stop running. I guess the 47A buses will just sit in Lansdowne Loop until their southbound departure time. Unusual for a service change to occur on a Wednesday, but I guess that's tied to when the underpass construction is expected to wrap up.

[Xtrazsteve]

23 minutes ago, Articulated said:

The TTC announced the same service changes on their website and social media today. This change formalizes the 503 shuttle that's been operating semi-officially with RAD buses (as 501/504) since last board period, and I guess the schedules will reflect this with the next board period in July. In addition to what's been mentioned above, all 506 cars will turn back at Broadview, and will not continue to Queen/Kingston (something they rarely actually did in service).

It's highly unusual for the TTC to be implementing such significant routing changes as part of a mid-board change; that kind of indicates the level of problems that has been happening on the ground, largely due to inadequate running time and general congestion from trying to operate three major streetcar routes through one street/intersection.

Additionally, 512 St Clair streetcars will return to Gunns Loop on Wednesday July 5th, at which time the 47/512 shuttle will stop running. I guess the 47A buses will just sit in Lansdowne Loop until their southbound departure time. Unusual for a service change to occur on a Wednesday, but I guess that's tied to when the underpass construction is expected to wrap up.

People are beyond pissed off and writing news articles about it. Back in the days, they used to do these kinda changes at division level. Nowadays, they don't want a scheduling disaster.

What they should have done is extend the 189 to Lansdowne and make it easier to travel across St Clair. Not screw up the already bad enough 47A. It better if the 47A just waits longer.

I guess they will send all those Malvern RAD buses to the 503.

The 503/505 changes will begin on the 4th, the day after the Canada Day makeup holiday.

The 512 changes will occur on the 5th (Wednesday). They probably need to send a crew out to remove any blockage and fix some stuff up. I assume those people don't work on holidiays/weekends so they need the Tuesday to do it.

[Turtle]

5 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

What they should have done is extend the 189 to Lansdowne and make it easier to travel across St Clair. Not screw up the already bad enough 47A.

 

Cool idea bro, but where will that hypothetical 189 turn around at Lansdowne and St Clair to go back westbound? They can't turn west from Earlscourt loop, and Caledonia Park/Davenport/Lansdowne is a pretty long and inconvenient loop for passengers.

 

Would be far easier to turn buses around at Oakwood, or St. Clair West, or bustitute the whole line and design the streetcar ROW to accommodate bustitution in the first place. Nope, have to have street parking, so we can't do that.

 

Buses on St Clair or Spadina in their own row would provide far superior service than what they are doing with streetcars there

 

On 6/28/2023 at 5:36 PM, nfitz said:

There's always been a few in this category. But it was never this bad on transit before. We just need to get back to where we were a decade or so ago.

Just because it will never be perfect, doesn't mean we can't be making it better. And we can be making it better.

(Drug addicts out in public)

 

It has always been this bad, you just never noticed it before now.

[Turtle]

On 6/28/2023 at 10:14 PM, TransitMotorcoach said:

When it is a matter of maintaining public order and safety, the authorities need to draw the line and not give any leniency to these characters when they become a nuisance and their issues affect the safety of the public at large. If they don't want help, too bad. They have no choice.

I'm sorry, no. Who will judge when they become a nuisance to the general public? When it makes it uncomfortable to the average white Karen to take the bus to their doctors appointment? When they are playing obnoxious music on their bluetooth speaker? Scrolling quickly through tiktoks or grams with the volume on fullblast? Whan they are sucking on their crackpipe, which actually doesn't smell that bad imo. When they are lighting up a roach? When they are injecting heroin in their neck because they have no other veins available that would work?

 

Or actually delaying people from getting where they are going somehow? Using the system as their toilet?

 

Public transit is for public transit. Everybody is guilty of not using it appropriately at some time. A to B, get on, pay your fare, get off at your destination and go away and let other people use the system.

 

6 hours ago, Articulated said:

Additionally, 512 St Clair streetcars will return to Gunns Loop on Wednesday July 5th, at which time the 47/512 shuttle will stop running. I guess the 47A buses will just sit in Lansdowne Loop until their southbound departure time. Unusual for a service change to occur on a Wednesday, but I guess that's tied to when the underpass construction is expected to wrap up.

How? The board period ends on the 29th of July?  That's going to be a disaster. They need a bunch of other streetcar operators to drive the extra streetcars, plus those existing drivers are going to be completely off schedule. Good luck to the St Clair console getting those ops in place for step back reliefs. It's going to be a sh*tshow.

 

So, the buses will just sit and do nothing? Sounds like a huge waste of resources. Where can I sign up for 47A/512 do eff all?  Might as well be in management if you are going to sit on a seat and look at the clock all day

[Someguy3071]

Or they can just run those 47A buses on headways. 

[CJ.]

The divison notice stated that 92 Woodbine South and 31 Greenwood would interline on Canada Day- and that is pretty much what's happening right now. Its a little messy but not as bad as I thought it would be

[Xtrazsteve]

1 hour ago, CJ. said:

The divison notice stated that 92 Woodbine South and 31 Greenwood would interline on Canada Day- and that is pretty much what's happening right now. Its a little messy but not as bad as I thought it would be

They are all signed Ashbridges Bay instead of 31

[nfitz]

12 hours ago, Turtle said:

(Drug addicts out in public)

 

It has always been this bad, you just never noticed it before now.

There's always been some. But used to be more drunks than drug-users on the streetcars and buses. On the streetcar, during the winter, it became regular to see someone living in the back seat; even screaming at the driver (30 metres away) when they swung around the corner, spilling whatever they were consuming. I NEVER saw this pre-Covid, despite riding about 5 times as much as I do now.

Also pre-Covid I've seen 75 Sherbourne bus drivers refuse boarding, and screaming at drug addicts that they couldn't board (based on previous experience with the person it seemed). If this isn't happening now (as you say), then there WOULD be more drug addicts on buses.

[CJ.]

1 hour ago, Xtrazsteve said:

They are all signed Ashbridges Bay instead of 31

Not all. There's some doing 31/92. 9076 and 12xx was on 31 then 92

[Turtle]

1 hour ago, nfitz said:

There's always been some. But used to be more drunks than drug-users on the streetcars and buses. On the streetcar, during the winter, it became regular to see someone living in the back seat; even screaming at the driver (30 metres away) when they swung around the corner, spilling whatever they were consuming. I NEVER saw this pre-Covid, despite riding about 5 times as much as I do now.

Also pre-Covid I've seen 75 Sherbourne bus drivers refuse boarding, and screaming at drug addicts that they couldn't board (based on previous experience with the person it seemed). If this isn't happening now (as you say), then there WOULD be more drug addicts on buses.

Perspective right? One of my favorite routes was the 75 bus. The addicts stayed off the bus for the most part, except for that one guy who was visually impaired and would take leaks out of your back doors. Of course there was Lilly because she lived at/near 555 sherbourne, but she went all over the place so you would even see her on the 29 sometimes. RIP Lilly, as far as regulars go she was alright, had a few really interesting conversations with her about her life and past.

 

The people on the 75 paid their fares, and were really pleasant, unlike the regulars on Bay. Those suits on Bay street were invisible for the most part, except for the odd person who wanted to make your day hard by shoving his "superiority" in your face.

 

The biggest problem on the 75 were the cyclists (this is before the segregated bike lanes). That's why I was reluctant to do that route. The people that lived there and took the bus to go to work were fantastic people.

 

But right now, addicts rule everything with their "human rights". Take a look at the current state of Allan Gardens.

1 hour ago, nfitz said:

used to be more drunks than drug-users on the streetcars and buses

What is the difference between them? The drunk regulars used to urinate on unsuspecting passengers on the ALRVs, now you get people yelling and screaming about whatever that irritates them. How do you think they get people to give them space and leave them alone? They yell and scream, and have a complete meltdown any time anybody suggests they move along. If they aren't happy about tail whip on the streetcar, they can go sleep it off somewhere else. They get on for free, they have no right to complain about something they don't pay for.

[CJ.]

Just double-checked, yes it is an interline. They are just using those signs for some reason though  

[Xtrazsteve]

TTC will continue to screw over 47 LANSDOWNE riders by keeping the current 47A/512 routing

https://www.ttc.ca/service-advisories/Service-Changes/512-St-Clair-Route-update

[Turtle]

4 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

TTC will continue to screw over 47 LANSDOWNE riders by keeping the current 47A/512 routing

https://www.ttc.ca/service-advisories/Service-Changes/512-St-Clair-Route-update

So now, instead of having 8 streetcars on 8 minute headways running between Lansdowne Avenue and Yonge Street, now they will have 8 streetcars on 12 minute headways between Yonge Street and Gunns, plus some 47A buses on 9 minute headways between Lansdowne and Gunns servicing streetside stops.

 

They are asking for injuries with idiots running between the platform and streetside stops to catch whatever vehicle they see coming.

 

Add to that a bunch of streetcar drivers trying to game the time so they arrive at their relief point for their relief time. So you will have scheduled 12 minute headways. but in reality you will have 4 cars waiting at Yonge Street for their time. Mgmt will put a couple RAD streetcars up there to reduce headways and assist with changeovers to get drivers on their relief time, but it won't work.

[Shaun]

14 hours ago, Turtle said:

So now, instead of having 8 streetcars on 8 minute headways running between Lansdowne Avenue and Yonge Street, now they will have 8 streetcars on 12 minute headways between Yonge Street and Gunns, plus some 47A buses on 9 minute headways between Lansdowne and Gunns servicing streetside stops.

 

They are asking for injuries with idiots running between the platform and streetside stops to catch whatever vehicle they see coming.

 

Add to that a bunch of streetcar drivers trying to game the time so they arrive at their relief point for their relief time. So you will have scheduled 12 minute headways. but in reality you will have 4 cars waiting at Yonge Street for their time. Mgmt will put a couple RAD streetcars up there to reduce headways and assist with changeovers to get drivers on their relief time, but it won't work.

Is the Oakwood loop still in service? I saw a truck doing some work blocking the tracks. Having the loop in service would help service adjustments. 

[Xtrazsteve]

15 minutes ago, Shaun said:

Is the Oakwood loop still in service? I saw a truck doing some work blocking the tracks. Having the loop in service would help service adjustments. 

Yeah it is functional last month. They ran streetcar between Lansdowne and Oakwood for two nights after 11pm for some construction on the first week of June. Shuttle buses ran between Oakwood and St Clair Station. A truly wtf shitshow for anyone getting from Line 1 to Keele.

Short turns happens regular.

[blue.bird.fan]

4 hours ago, Shaun said:

Is the Oakwood loop still in service? I saw a truck doing some work blocking the tracks. Having the loop in service would help service adjustments. 

Is the Earlscourt Loop still in usable condition too? I've noticed that the 47 is still running to Gunns Loop despite the resumption of streetcar service.