TTC Application Process

[9924]

12 hours ago, Someguy3071 said:

dangerous practice

Explain.

[Doppelkupplung]

4 hours ago, 9924 said:

Explain.

Because you'll never know when a bus is about to pull out if you're on the driver's side.

Where I live there's an intersection with a layby that cars aren't allowed to use when they're turning right, so they have to come alongside the bus and turn in front of it. So if there's a bus at the stop that's about to pull out and you're coming in to turn right and you've only seen the 4-ways on, you have no idea what the bus is about to do. It just makes their movements very unpredictable in certain situations. And the worst part is, drivers have become trained to see them as meaningless now, which detracts from their legitimate use in situations where they are warranted. 

It's a ridiculous practice and it should have been eliminated a long time ago. 

[9924]

5 hours ago, Doppelkupplung said:

Because you'll never know when a bus is about to pull out if you're on the driver's side.

Where I live there's an intersection with a layby that cars aren't allowed to use when they're turning right, so they have to come alongside the bus and turn in front of it. So if there's a bus at the stop that's about to pull out and you're coming in to turn right and you've only seen the 4-ways on, you have no idea what the bus is about to do. It just makes their movements very unpredictable in certain situations. And the worst part is, drivers have become trained to see them as meaningless now, which detracts from their legitimate use in situations where they are warranted. 

It's a ridiculous practice and it should have been eliminated a long time ago. 

And where is exactly is this danger?  

Confusing?  To some, maybe.  

Unnecessary? Perhaps.

Dangerous?  I've been doing this job for a long time and driving even longer.  Not seeing any "danger" in what you've described.

Not sure when a bus is going to pull out?  Slow down and use caution (as you should be doing in the first place) and watch for cues.  Its not rocket science.

 

[Doppelkupplung]

3 hours ago, 9924 said:

Dangerous?  I've been doing this job for a long time and driving even longer.  Not seeing any "danger" in what you've described.

Okay, let's try this:

At said intersection, a cyclist comes up along a 60 footer that is making a stop. Doors are open, 4 ways are on. Cyclist intends to turn right at the intersection, meaning they will have to turn in front of the currently stationary bus. Bear in mind, this is a major stop where changeovers occur and drivers have some spare time on their schedule. There is no bike lane, and this is a road with consistent 70kmhr traffic. 

As the cyclist approaches the front, the driver has closed the doors and the left blinker is on. Driver pulls out just as the cyclist begins the turn. 

Dangerous enough for you?

Source: I'm a cyclist. 

4 hours ago, 9924 said:

watch for cues

Which cues is the average person looking for here?

[81-717]

5 hours ago, Doppelkupplung said:

Source: I'm a cyclist. 

Me too.

5 hours ago, Doppelkupplung said:

At said intersection, a cyclist comes up along a 60 footer that is making a stop. Doors are open, 4 ways are on. Cyclist intends to turn right at the intersection, meaning they will have to turn in front of the currently stationary bus. Bear in mind, this is a major stop where changeovers occur and drivers have some spare time on their schedule. There is no bike lane, and this is a road with consistent 70kmhr traffic. 

As the cyclist approaches the front, the driver has closed the doors and the left blinker is on. Driver pulls out just as the cyclist begins the turn. 

If I'm making a right turn I would simply wait in the right turn lane like everyone else, thus avoiding the scenario you're describing. However, if I'm going straight ahead, I do sometimes end up having to change lanes if I see a bus stopped ahead of me, and pass the bus on the left side, hoping it won't start merging into my lane at the same time. I usually try to predict in advance if I'll have time to pass it or if it's better to stick behind it & follow it, based on factors like how long it's already been sitting at that stop (or if it's still approaching the stop), how many people are waiting at the stop, if there's a red light ahead or if I'll have time to get across before it turns red, etc.

[9924]

7 hours ago, Doppelkupplung said:

Okay, let's try this:

At said intersection, a cyclist comes up along a 60 footer that is making a stop. Doors are open, 4 ways are on. Cyclist intends to turn right at the intersection, meaning they will have to turn in front of the currently stationary bus. Bear in mind, this is a major stop where changeovers occur and drivers have some spare time on their schedule. There is no bike lane, and this is a road with consistent 70kmhr traffic. 

As the cyclist approaches the front, the driver has closed the doors and the left blinker is on. Driver pulls out just as the cyclist begins the turn. 

Dangerous enough for you?

Source: I'm a cyclist. 

Which cues is the average person looking for here?

OK - so, same scenario, same bus driver - but the bus doesn't have his 4 ways on.  What changes?  Nothing - bus is still gonna pull out just as you begin your turn.

What should happen is, if the driver is going to pull out (or go straight through), the driver needs to pay attention to the environment, if there is a vehicle or bicycle beside you - you don't pull out, and if you're going straight through, you make sure that any vehicle beside you isn't making a right turn in-front of you.

We have lots of stops just like the one you described, and I use my 4 ways at those stops exclusively, not because we have any such policy, but because it's common sense.  That is a lane of traffic and I will be blocking it, and I make sure to let other drivers/cyclists know that I am stopped so they can go around me.  Once I'm ready to go, I will turn my 4 ways off, check my surroundings, put my left signal on and make sure there is not conflict before proceeding.

Your cue is - is the bus starting to move?  If so, exercise caution because I assure you, there are a lot of bus drivers out there that are complete idiots.

Now, I don't disagree with you that thats a potentially dangerous situation, but the 4 ways aren't a factor of that potential danger.

I'm also in agreement that it's a silly policy, for two reasons.  Number one, as a driver, the use of equipment on my bus should be at my discretion because situations throughout a shift change and sometimes it's appropriate to use said equipment and other times it's not.  Number two, policies like that are a sure tell tale of a company that micromanages, and having worked for a company that excels in micromanaging with polices that will make you blush, for me professionally, thats a major red flag.

[Byfold]

4 ways should only be used when laying over or loading/unloading a person using a mobility device.   Otherwise it should be Right signal into bus stop.  Left out.

[9924]

8 hours ago, Byfold said:

4 ways should only be used when laying over or loading/unloading a person using a mobility device.   Otherwise it should be Right signal into bus stop.  Left out.

Depends on the stop, depends on the situation, depends of the traffic, depends on many factors - as I said, driver's discretion.

 

[Byfold]

1 hour ago, 9924 said:

Depends on the stop, depends on the situation, depends of the traffic, depends on many factors - as I said, driver's discretion.

 

I respectfully disagree.  There should be a set standard for bus stop procedures.   Takes out the guess work by other road users. 

[9924]

26 minutes ago, Byfold said:

I respectfully disagree.  There should be a set standard for bus stop procedures.   Takes out the guess work by other road users. 

What guess work?

What does the use of a right signal tell other road users that 4 ways don't?

[Byfold]

3 hours ago, 9924 said:

What guess work?

What does the use of a right signal tell other road users that 4 ways don't?

Right turn signal indicates bus will be servicing bus stop and will move shortly.    4 ways indicate bus will NOT be moving right away and to go around.

 we'll have to agree to disagree 

[9924]

9 hours ago, Byfold said:

Right turn signal indicates bus will be servicing bus stop and will move shortly.    4 ways indicate bus will NOT be moving right away and to go around.

 we'll have to agree to disagree 

Do you honestly think that 99% of the road users think of that, let alone even care?  You're overestimating their intellectual capacity by a very large margin.

They see a bus pull over, they see a bus pull over and just want to get around the bus, and they will continue to do so regardless if the bus has its 4 ways on or right turn signal on. The only signal that is of importance to them is the left turn signal when the bus is merging back into traffic.  If the bus is sitting there already, then they don't know how long its been sitting there, they don't when its going to pull out.  4 ways or right turn signal - irrelevant.

The only situation where this ridiculous nonsense of an argument holds an ounce of water, is if 2 or more buses are parked behind each other, then only the last bus should have their 4 ways on and the other bus(es) in front should have a right signal or no signal as it would be difficult to distinguish 4 ways from a left turn signal.  For any other situation, there is zero relevance to the average road user.

 

Zero.

Nada.

Nothing.

Neit.

None.

Zilch.

[Byfold]

Thanks for your point of view. 

[9924]

10 minutes ago, Byfold said:

Thanks for your point of view. 

[Someguy3071]

11 hours ago, 9924 said:

Do you honestly think that 99% of the road users think of that, let alone even care?  You're overestimating their intellectual capacity by a very large margin.

They see a bus pull over, they see a bus pull over and just want to get around the bus, and they will continue to do so regardless if the bus has its 4 ways on or right turn signal on. The only signal that is of importance to them is the left turn signal when the bus is merging back into traffic.  If the bus is sitting there already, then they don't know how long its been sitting there, they don't when its going to pull out.  4 ways or right turn signal - irrelevant.

The only situation where this ridiculous nonsense of an argument holds an ounce of water, is if 2 or more buses are parked behind each other, then only the last bus should have their 4 ways on and the other bus(es) in front should have a right signal or no signal as it would be difficult to distinguish 4 ways from a left turn signal.  For any other situation, there is zero relevance to the average road user.

 

Zero.

Nada.

Nothing.

Neit.

None.

Zilch.

You are wrong. Plain and simple. 

[9924]

8 hours ago, Someguy3071 said:

You are wrong. Plain and simple. 

Am I now?

Prove me wrong then.  Other than "its dangerous" or "its confusing" or "me no likey".  Back this nonsense up with actual hard evidence.

I'll wait.

[ZümmyZüm]

I like to use this article when this argument comes up every once in awhile. As an operator we’re all trained to use our 4-ways when at an extended layover/time point whatever the reason. The logic miway has is that it’s curb flasher pulling in - 4 ways on - street flasher leaving. 
 

in principle, this works. In reality it doesn’t set a visual difference to motorists behind the bus who more times than not, are not looking at the big picture. When the four ways flash turns to a signal left flash before the bus pulls out, 99% of motorists are already mid commitment to go around and don’t differentiate the fact it’s only now the left signal on. If it’s a quick stop, you have cars seeing 4 ways and assuming it’s a blockage up ahead and they’ll make a potentially risky move. 
 

then you have the TTC (as an example). To service a stop it’s curb flasher the entire time until leaving and then street side. This is a clear visual change to a motorist and it implies the bus is now moving “back into the lane” even though the bus still has full occupancy of the lane the entire time. 
 

Let’s also look at it operationally. You’re the bus behind a miway bus and they service a stop and their 4 ways are on, who’s to say this bus is a quick pick up or if it’s a time point? There’s no cue for the operator behind. Especially if it’s TTC, Brampton or Oakville who don’t use this practice. (Brampton’s is a floor switch and not a program). It Miway really wanted to ensure the signals stay on, then program the curb flasher to stay on when doors open. Absolutely no reason for emergency flashers 

“while stopped, the right signal remains activated to indicate that the bus is in operation, not disabled or waiting” which is what 4-ways are supposed to indicate. 

[Doppelkupplung]

On 7/15/2023 at 4:01 AM, 9924 said:

OK - so, same scenario, same bus driver - but the bus doesn't have his 4 ways on.  What changes?  Nothing - bus is still gonna pull out just as you begin your turn.

It changes absolutely everything.

If the 4 ways aren't on, then I know when I'm passing the bus, it's not about to go anywhere when I'm passing it. If the left blinker is on, then I know that the bus is about to pull out. So in that situation (assuming 4 ways are not auto-triggered by the doors), I know that I need to take defensive action immediately, either in the form of proceeding straight on and not turning in front of the bus (if I'm that close to the front), slowing down to let it pull out (dangerous, as it could force me into another lane of traffic), or getting the driver's attention audibly, given that I'm close enough to the front. 

At my local agency, the side of each bus has 2 blinkers by each wheel plus another one on the driver's mirror. The cues are there. What I'm trying to tell you is that there is a dangerous level of ambiguity for vulnerable road users (read: cyclists) when the 4 ways are on. 

On 7/15/2023 at 4:01 AM, 9924 said:

Your cue is - is the bus starting to move?  If so, exercise caution because I assure you, there are a lot of bus drivers out there that are complete idiots.

On 7/15/2023 at 4:01 AM, 9924 said:

We have lots of stops just like the one you described, and I use my 4 ways at those stops exclusively, not because we have any such policy, but because it's common sense.  That is a lane of traffic and I will be blocking it, and I make sure to let other drivers/cyclists know that I am stopped so they can go around me.  Once I'm ready to go, I will turn my 4 ways off, check my surroundings, put my left signal on and make sure there is not conflict before proceeding.

I have no choice but to exercise caution if I'm on my bike. There are enough morons driving in the GTA to guarantee that.

So, my cue should really be, is the left blinker on? That's what its there for. To indicate movement.

Remember, people are aware that a bus has to make stops, and it's quite hard to miss one on the road, which is why I disagree with the use of 4 ways even when servicing a stop with no layover area, let alone a stop with a layover area.

Reasonable exceptions to this are when servicing a stop on a high speed road, where the limit is 70+ (something quite common in the GTA). Then yes, your vehicle is a hazard to high speed traffic, so the 4 ways should be used when approaching and servicing the stop. 

Is your bus disabled and a hazard to other road users? Then yes, you should have your 4 ways on, but you should also have your warning triangles out.

On a regular city street where buses are frequent and in abundance? I respectfully disagree.

To quote from the article that @ZümmyZüm posted from section 142(2) of the HTA: "The operator of a vehicle parked or stopped on the highway before setting the vehicle in motion shall first see that the movement can be made safely and shall give a signal plainly visible to the operator of the other vehicle of the intention to make the movement"

Again, back to my initial example, or heck, say a bus has to cut into a bike lane to service a stop (there are plenty of those here) and I have to go around the bus. If the hazards are on while I'm passing, and the driver changes to the left turn signal, how is that "plainly visible" to me if the 4 ways were on when I started passing the bus? What if the bus pulls out and it forces me into the second lane of traffic? Then what?

Yes, majority of operators are safe, and I have no doubt that you are a safe operator as well, but this is an almost certain scenario with my local agency's practices, and one that I've almost been in many times. Its easy to talk about this from home typing off a keyboard, but you and I share opposite ends of this potential scenario. A bike usually travels at half the speed of traffic, so it's naturally an awkward relationship between the two vehicles which is why I disagree with the policy of 4 ways at a stop. 

I guess what I'd also say is that you or a member of your garage performs a daily circle check, and verifying that the left turn signal is in good working order is a must to pass the inspection, otherwise your vehicle is OOS.

What's the point of the left turn signal if a road user like myself doesn't know exactly what its use means? It's not clear cut, like every other safety function on a bus. 

 

[RailBus63]

Many motorists act like idiots when encountering a transit bus making a service stop, no matter what flashers are being used. My strong recommendation to bicyclists would be to wait and let the bus complete its stop and merge back into street traffic before you resume your ride.  Attempting to pass a stopped bus on a bicycle (or a scooter) is extremely risky from the perspective of reckless motorists, pedestrians darting across the street, other motorists looking to turn into the main road from a side street who see a stopped bus as an opportunity to go for it, etc. 

[T3G]

^ if the bus followed a normal turn signal protocol I would agree that this is the best solution by far. but thanks to the brilliance of the 4 way policy, someone stuck behind the bus has no way of telling whether the bus will be in their way for 15 seconds or 15 minutes. 

[York Transit]

As a transit operator who has worked at YRT and Miway, the 4-way automatic flashers I will say is more dangerous. The first thing I noticed was WHY ARE CARS FLYING PAST THE BUS AND RIGHT HOOKING THE BUS CONSTANTLY? At YRT, you'd have someone right hooking the bus maybe once a week. Usually everyone waited single file behind the bus to move and then proceed to make their turn. At Mississauga, you have everyone and their mom rushing to pass the bus and it's incredibly difficult to merge back into traffic when you constantly have people battling to pass you because the car in front of them successfully did it.

 

 

[TransitMotorcoach]

13 hours ago, York Transit said:

As a transit operator who has worked at YRT and Miway, the 4-way automatic flashers I will say is more dangerous. The first thing I noticed was WHY ARE CARS FLYING PAST THE BUS AND RIGHT HOOKING THE BUS CONSTANTLY? At YRT, you'd have someone right hooking the bus maybe once a week. Usually everyone waited single file behind the bus to move and then proceed to make their turn. At Mississauga, you have everyone and their mom rushing to pass the bus and it's incredibly difficult to merge back into traffic when you constantly have people battling to pass you because the car in front of them successfully did it.

 

 

That kind of driving behavior in Mississauga is a prime example of why Peel Region has the highest auto insurance rates in the GTA. The people over there drive like savage animals.....

 

As far as the auto 4-way flashers on Miway buses, it is definitely irritating to see . Suburban transit agencies just can't help but be extra with how they do things. Meanwhile, the TTC does not even want us to turn on the 4-ways at railway crossings. It is a difference between the uppity suburbs and the very gangster inner city.

[Doppelkupplung]

On 7/29/2023 at 11:42 AM, TransitMotorcoach said:

It is a difference between the uppity suburbs and the very gangster inner city.

This is the most ridiculous take of this whole discussion. 

[TransitMotorcoach]

2 hours ago, Doppelkupplung said:

This is the most ridiculous take of this whole discussion. 

What is actually very ridiculous is that you seem to get your panties in a bunch over any opinion that you disagree with  

 

 

[Bus_Medic]

7 hours ago, TransitMotorcoach said:

What is actually very ridiculous is that you seem to get your panties in a bunch over any opinion that you disagree with  

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection?wprov=sfti1