smallspy Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 And that's fair, I'm just saying that the argument that the TTC is in the business of providing transit and shouldn't be saving historical vehicles, is not a convincing one. How is it not? It comes down to money - and the TTC has almost never been in a position where they have the funding to go above and beyond their base mandate. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailBus63 Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 The problem, in my opinion, is this. TTC has preserved several PCC cars and GM New Look buses. Both of those vehicles were truly iconic on the streets of Toronto and lasted long enough to achieve legendary status. They are easily distinguished from other TTC vehicles by the average person, and while many people don't want to see public agencies 'waste' money on historical artifacts, it's a lot easier sell when you’re saving vehicles that are understood by most as being of historic importance. The Orion V, on the other hand, is just a boxy modern bus. They served the citizens of Toronto well but they have limited importance in the grand scheme of things. Most people cannot tell an O5 apart from a New Flyer LF or an Orion VII for that matter. There is no general appreciation that a V is anything special worth saving. Maybe if the TTC employees had a historical association similar to Seattle they could convince the commissioners to set aside a good example for preservation but otherwise if a TTC Orion V is going to be saved it will almost certainly be up to the folks at Halton or another museum to do the saving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shambala Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 The problem, in my opinion, is this. TTC has preserved several PCC cars and GM New Look buses. Both of those vehicles were truly iconic on the streets of Toronto and lasted long enough to achieve legendary status. They are easily distinguished from other TTC vehicles by the average person, and while many people don't want to see public agencies 'waste' money on historical artifacts, it's a lot easier sell when you’re saving vehicles that are understood by most as being of historic importance. The Orion V, on the other hand, is just a boxy modern bus. They served the citizens of Toronto well but they have limited importance in the grand scheme of things. Most people cannot tell an O5 apart from a New Flyer LF or an Orion VII for that matter. There is no general appreciation that a V is anything special worth saving. Maybe if the TTC employees had a historical association similar to Seattle they could convince the commissioners to set aside a good example for preservation but otherwise if a TTC Orion V is going to be saved it will almost certainly be up to the folks at Halton or another museum to do the saving. Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallspy Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 The problem, in my opinion, is this. TTC has preserved several PCC cars and GM New Look buses. Both of those vehicles were truly iconic on the streets of Toronto and lasted long enough to achieve legendary status. They are easily distinguished from other TTC vehicles by the average person, and while many people don't want to see public agencies 'waste' money on historical artifacts, it's a lot easier sell when you’re saving vehicles that are understood by most as being of historic importance. The Orion V, on the other hand, is just a boxy modern bus. They served the citizens of Toronto well but they have limited importance in the grand scheme of things. Most people cannot tell an O5 apart from a New Flyer LF or an Orion VII for that matter. There is no general appreciation that a V is anything special worth saving. Maybe if the TTC employees had a historical association similar to Seattle they could convince the commissioners to set aside a good example for preservation but otherwise if a TTC Orion V is going to be saved it will almost certainly be up to the folks at Halton or another museum to do the saving. Minimizing the Orion V to "...just a boxy modern bus." is exactly the reason why vehicles like it should be saved. There are lots of New Looks already saved across North America. How many of their contemporaries have been saved? How many of their successors? If you want to correctly interpret history, you need to do so from all angles and with all parties. That means a New Look - and a D800, and an Orion I, and possibly following it up with a Classic, a D40 and an Orion V. That way, you show not just what they bought and run, but also what their competitors were doing and why they did or didn't go with them. A PCC and a Peter Witt are a great starting point with the streetcar fleet, but getting a Pittsburgh K-car or a Boston Boeing would go a hell of a long way to helping explain to people what the options were in the 1970s and why we ended up buying CLRVs. To say that something is modern and thus doesn't warrant saving is not only extremely shortsighted and arrogant, but also doing the generations following us a disservice. Should there be a society to save retiring vehicles, and to push the Commission to not scrap every single one? It could be argued that OERHA is already in place for this, and does have a fair amount of pull at the TTC as well. Much as many other historical societies, however, they have problems with manpower and money. They are doing a lot to save the TTC's history - will you do your part? Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leylandvictory2 Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 Most of the public didn't know TTC orion v is the first bus in TTC fleet to be wheel chair accessible aside fr the wheel trans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed T. Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 Where have you gone, 7106 Our riders turn their high floor dreams to you What's that you say Mr Bus_Medic Joltin' six has left and gone away Hey hey hey Hey hey hey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T3G Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 How is it not? It comes down to money - and the TTC has almost never been in a position where they have the funding to go above and beyond their base mandate. Dan Maybe I misunderstood the post, but I got the impression that he was saying that the TTC has no business doing preservation regardless of finances. If that is incorrect, I apologize for jumping the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallspy Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 Maybe I misunderstood the post, but I got the impression that he was saying that the TTC has no business doing preservation regardless of finances. If that is incorrect, I apologize for jumping the gun. During the Miller era, there was a lot of money for the TTC, and they contemplated a bunch of projects - such as a new headquarters building that would have also included a museum on the ground floor. While there are factions within the TTC that would fight against it, if the money is there they will use it. Another example: 15 or so years ago, the TTC saw a motion to build a Quonset hut-type building at Russell to store the PCCs out of the elements. I can't recall if the Commissioners approved it or not - I want to say yes - but that it has never been built goes a long way towards showing how dire the finances can be. If it comes down to the last $10, it's not going to the historical fleet. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xtrazsteve Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 Honestly some of you guys are bias for keeping a 7000s. Maybe cause you live near a Malvern route and like that bus model, you want them to preserve that bus. I like the RTSes better but I don't see someone posting about keeping the RTSes. Orion V's, D40LF's and RTS'es aren't special to most people. It's not a PCC or a Witts. Most people who ride a PCC/Witts will immediately know it's a historical vehicle. To most people, an Orion V is an annoying old bus with stairs that they have to climb. 99.99% of the normal non-transit geek riders are happy they trashed all the Orion V's. Unlike the fishbowls, the Orion V's don't last as long. They aren't as easy to rebuild as the fishbowls making it harder to maintain. I think the 9400s are in better shape then the 7000s. They definetly didn't spend as much time on the road when they were CNGs and now put on lower ridership routes like 51, 88, 90, 106 and 107. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
81-717 Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 Delete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xtrazsteve Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 Why is a V "an annoying old bus"? It's accessible and air-conditioned after all. GM's also have stairs to climb and are not even accessible nor air-conditioned, and being a historical vehicle doesn't cover up for those short-comings. Surely to most people it's a complete waste of time if they're actually trying to get somewhere, yet why is no one complaining about GM's the way they complain about the V's? Same with the G-trains, which were slower and didn't have AC or any ventilation other than the opening windows. I heard lot's of people say the G-trains got so hot in the summer that they'd avoid them in the hopes of catching the new air-conditioned subways (which were H5's and H6's ) Not sure if people regard CLRV's as annoying old streetcars or a part of history just like the PCC's/Witt's, I'm guessing a bit of both. Hopefully a couple CLRV/ALRV's will be saved, regardless. Not compared to the GMs, compared to low floor buses. There are just too many strollers and elders which hinter boarding. When 512 was bussed for a few years, many mothers started using strollers. Then the streetcars can back and it got annoying. When the GMs were around, there were still a number of high floor buses in the system. Once the new streetcar becomes a major part of the fleet, I'm sure people will start to hate the CLRVs. The G trains aren't as bad but compared to T1's, everyone will know how annoying when door blockers stand on both sides of the doors with only a narrow gap for people to pass. Since the H trains were the same, people can't complain but when you have a H5 vs TR, everyone knows the differences on a crowded train. Besides some of the the H5's had an unpleasant smell which some people including myself disliked. The H6's were better but also BD wasn't as crowed. So it's pretty much the same as T1's to most people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T3G Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 @smallspy: I didn't know about the museum plans. It's a shame that idea never took off. Will someone please tell me why the average passenger's opinion on a bus should influence preservation? If we didn't save vehicles because the passengers hated them, as they always do because they're not modern, we would probably not have a single historical unit. You can be sure that many people celebrated when they took the GMs off thr streets, and yet they saved 2. Same with the C/ALRVs, I have found more people who hate them than not in my experience, should we avoid saving those too as a result? I appreciate that there may not always be the finances required to do so, but we should not be avoiding vehicle preservation just because they don't have fans among the riding public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallspy Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 Honestly some of you guys are bias for keeping a 7000s. Maybe cause you live near a Malvern route and like that bus model, you want them to preserve that bus. I like the RTSes better but I don't see someone posting about keeping the RTSes. Orion V's, D40LF's and RTS'es aren't special to most people. It's not a PCC or a Witts. Most people who ride a PCC/Witts will immediately know it's a historical vehicle. To most people, an Orion V is an annoying old bus with stairs that they have to climb. 99.99% of the normal non-transit geek riders are happy they trashed all the Orion V's. Unlike the fishbowls, the Orion V's don't last as long. They aren't as easy to rebuild as the fishbowls making it harder to maintain. I think the 9400s are in better shape then the 7000s. They definetly didn't spend as much time on the road when they were CNGs and now put on lower ridership routes like 51, 88, 90, 106 and 107. You're an idiot. It doesn't matter that they aren't special to people NOW. What matters is that there is some semblance of a complete record for the future. If everyone had taken the same view as you are now, three-quarters of anything historic in the world simply wouldn't exist. Buildings, objects, anything. That nothing is as long-lived as the New Look design is irrelevant to this conversation. We're talking about how historic something may be, not how much you get your jollies on a particular vehicle because you're a foamer. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
81-717 Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 Delete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyerD901 Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 Something like an Orion VII will be a representative of what TTC buses were for the last 10+ years, when people look back maybe 20-30 years from now. Even if most don't like it, it can be seen has the next GM for this era were in now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallspy Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 Something like an Orion VII will be a representative of what TTC buses were for the last 10+ years, when people look back maybe 20-30 years from now. Even if most don't like it, it can be seen has the next GM for this era were in now. Precisely. And the Nova LFS, Orion VI and New Flyer D40LF and XD40 as representative counterpoints to the market as a whole, not to mention (in the case of the D40LFs) as a stop-gap until the Orion VII. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downsview 108 Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 Not compared to the GMs, compared to low floor buses. There are just too many strollers and elders which hinter boarding. When 512 was bussed for a few years, many mothers started using strollers. Then the streetcars can back and it got annoying. When the GMs were around, there were still a number of high floor buses in the system. Once the new streetcar becomes a major part of the fleet, I'm sure people will start to hate the CLRVs. The G trains aren't as bad but compared to T1's, everyone will know how annoying when door blockers stand on both sides of the doors with only a narrow gap for people to pass. Since the H trains were the same, people can't complain but when you have a H5 vs TR, everyone knows the differences on a crowded train. Besides some of the the H5's had an unpleasant smell which some people including myself disliked. The H6's were better but also BD wasn't as crowed. So it's pretty much the same as T1's to most people. Have you ever even ridden a Gloucester train during rush hour? The doorways were always crowded. I won't even address the rest of your ramblings. You wouldn't think the PCCs special if you were there when they had 700+ of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downsview 108 Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 I know this has been done to death but is there a recent list of routes where these buses run seeing as we're in the last days of these buses now that the 8400s are here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T3G Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 I know this has been done to death but is there a recent list of routes where these buses run seeing as we're in the last days of these buses now that the 8400s are here? If you're planning a fanning trip, I'd use TransSee to get an idea of where the vehicles are operating. Generally, though, Downsview station seems like a good idea, there are 11 vehicles out of 15 currently in service total operating on routes 105, 106, 107 and 196. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downsview 108 Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 If you're planning a fanning trip, I'd use TransSee to get an idea of where the vehicles are operating. Generally, though, Downsview station seems like a good idea, there are 11 vehicles out of 15 currently in service total operating on routes 105, 106, 107 and 196. There are only 15 orion v's left?!? Lol I've been ou5 of the loop wayyyyy too long! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T3G Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 There are only 15 orion v's left?!? Lol I've been ou5 of the loop wayyyyy too long! No, there were 15 out for midday. The majority of the 9400s should still be active. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bus_Medic Posted June 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 7106 was towed away sometime last evening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xtrazsteve Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 There are only 15 orion v's left?!? Lol I've been ou5 of the loop wayyyyy too long! The Orion V's are now confined to mostly peak runs and some midday runs. No Orion V's operate after PM rush nor on Saturdays. Due to the fact Wilson artics don't operate on Sundays, Orion V's do make it out on Sundays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayone Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 7106 was towed away sometime last evening. Is the next stop for 7106 Birchmount or straight to Hillcrest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lex Reid Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Is the next stop for 7106 Birchmount or straight to Hillcrest? It will probably go to Hillcrest For retired Orion V's, 9421, 9431, and 9428 are retired, And i think 9417 has retired too I know this has been done to death but is there a recent list of routes where these buses run seeing as we're in the last days of these buses now that the 8400s are here? The 8400's wont effect the Wilson Orion V's. What i was told the Hybrids at Arrow Road (1700s, and 1800s) will be moved to Wilson and will probably replace more of the V's that are there, also the best Routes to catch them on are routes 196 York University Rocket, 106 York University Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now