New Flyer Industries Discussion and Photos

[MiExpress]

As of late last year, Cummins was indicating to the market they would not certify the 2024 version of the L9 engine for hybrid applications. Supposedly they did not want to undertake the required testing for certifications that would be necessary for the hybrid application. 

From the December 7, 2022 Champaign-Urbana Mass Transit District board meeting (p.38 of packet):

"Cummins is the only supplier of the 60-foot hybrid certified engine, which they will no longer produce after 2023. Thus, the District’s only options to replace the 2009 60-foot buses are to purchase hybrids now or hydrogen in the future. With the next order of 10 40-foot hydrogen buses, we will have reached the capacity of our onsite hydrogen production station. This makes hybrid the right choice for this procurement..."

However at some point the Cummins website was updated and now lists a 2024 version L9 engine for 60' hybrid applications. So maybe Cummins heard feedback from both OEMs and transit agencies and reconsidered their decision, especially with many agencies using hybrids as a 'bridge' towards fully electric fleets.

[FlyerD901]

17 hours ago, MiExpress said:

As of late last year, Cummins was indicating to the market they would not certify the 2024 version of the L9 engine for hybrid applications. Supposedly they did not want to undertake the required testing for certifications that would be necessary for the hybrid application. 

From the December 7, 2022 Champaign-Urbana Mass Transit District board meeting (p.38 of packet):

"Cummins is the only supplier of the 60-foot hybrid certified engine, which they will no longer produce after 2023. Thus, the District’s only options to replace the 2009 60-foot buses are to purchase hybrids now or hydrogen in the future. With the next order of 10 40-foot hydrogen buses, we will have reached the capacity of our onsite hydrogen production station. This makes hybrid the right choice for this procurement..."

However at some point the Cummins website was updated and now lists a 2024 version L9 engine for 60' hybrid applications. So maybe Cummins heard feedback from both OEMs and transit agencies and reconsidered their decision, especially with many agencies using hybrids as a 'bridge' towards fully electric fleets.

I wonder if this could be an indication of Cummins eventually pulling out after 2024?

Seems to be the strict EPA standards that has them wanting out. And why many engine manufacturer don't make engines for the transit market anymore. 

And with everyone, at this point , looking towards electric buses, it's not worth the investment. 

[PrimeTio]

It appears the XDE60 is back on the New Flyer Site.

[FlyerD901]

6 hours ago, PrimeTio said:

It appears the XDE60 is back on the New Flyer Site.

For now.......? Lol

[FlyerD901]

Has Newflyer ever made a HF 96inch wide bus? 

[Mike]

6 minutes ago, FlyerD901 said:

Has Newflyer ever made a HF 96inch wide bus? 

No, New Flyer only produced 102” models.

[Antonov AN-225 Mriya]

Seems like NewFlyer Offer Dual Dual Axle Power (Center axle and Rear axle) being options in XDE60 for customer since 2021, the customer could order with Extra ZF AxTrax AVE wheel hub e-axle just like Battery Electric XE60 and Hydrogen Fuel Cell-Electric XHE60 for Better Traction and Power.

This Options now only for BAE HybriDrive system, not sure for Allison new hybird system  eGen Flex® will able power extra e-axle or not .

MBTA 2022 XDE60 since like first order equipped with this options and now  CMBC、Community Transit both system 2024 XDE60 order also choose this options.

 

 

[PrimeTio]

Does New Flyer have plans to release another model sometime in a few years? Similar to what they did with the LF/LFR, than Xcelsior and maybe something new?

[FlyerD901]

On 12/24/2009 at 11:05 AM, Ber said:

i just noticed that there seems to be a trend shift in terms of door design...it seems like nowadays (2009 onwards) the major bus companies are favouring simple full pane or divided in the middle rectangular glass w/ no more curved edges...cost savings??

oya since the lfr will have xcelsior type doors now...are wide rear doors going to be std?

I was going to ask the same question. The Xcelsior has been around since 2008. 

But with all the parts issues manufacturers are facing, I wonder if it's bad timing to start up a new product. 

Nova for the most part has had the same model for 30 years. 

But NFI, based on their history, likes to keep things fresh way more frequent than that. 

Personally the Xcelicor look is still in style. And with so many bus manufacturers going under since it's been around. There's no real competition right now, cosmetically.

However , I'd like NFI to redesign the interior front ceiling, where the HVAC is for better placement of information screens for transit agencies. And a more seamless evened out roofline from back to front. I find it dips down in the middle, then back up at both the front and ends, IMO. 

I'm sure NFI has ideas behind the scenes, like they do for MCI. 

[RailBus63]

I don't see NFI moving away from the Xcelsior design anytime soon. Engineering for an all-new design is not cheap and it's not like a 'fresh' look is going to result in a huge increase in sales (which they might have difficulty filling anyways). Plus, they are seeing success with the electric version of the Xcelsior and are getting the hydrogen version delivered now as well. I think the Xcelsior is going to be NFI's primary product for many years to come. Just my 2 cents. 

[Glennwood Road Ent.]

2 hours ago, RailBus63 said:

I don't see NFI moving away from the Xcelsior design anytime soon. Engineering for an all-new design is not cheap and it's not like a 'fresh' look is going to result in a huge increase in sales (which they might have difficulty filling anyways). Plus, they are seeing success with the electric version of the Xcelsior and are getting the hydrogen version delivered now as well. I think the Xcelsior is going to be NFI's primary product for many years to come. Just my 2 cents. 

That's Correct. 

[New Yorker 2001]

20 hours ago, FlyerD901 said:

I was going to ask the same question. The Xcelsior has been around since 2008. 

But with all the parts issues manufacturers are facing, I wonder if it's bad timing to start up a new product. 

Nova for the most part has had the same model for 30 years. 

But NFI, based on their history, likes to keep things fresh way more frequent than that. 

Personally the Xcelicor look is still in style. And with so many bus manufacturers going under since it's been around. There's no real competition right now, cosmetically.

However , I'd like NFI to redesign the interior front ceiling, where the HVAC is for better placement of information screens for transit agencies. And a more seamless evened out roofline from back to front. I find it dips down in the middle, then back up at both the front and ends, IMO. 

I'm sure NFI has ideas behind the scenes, like they do for MCI. 

 

12 hours ago, RailBus63 said:

I don't see NFI moving away from the Xcelsior design anytime soon. Engineering for an all-new design is not cheap and it's not like a 'fresh' look is going to result in a huge increase in sales (which they might have difficulty filling anyways). Plus, they are seeing success with the electric version of the Xcelsior and are getting the hydrogen version delivered now as well. I think the Xcelsior is going to be NFI's primary product for many years to come. Just my 2 cents. 

 

9 hours ago, Glennwood Road Ent. said:

That's Correct. 

I do agree that New Flyer does need more bus platforms as the Xcelsior (while not as old as it's rivals the Advantage and LFS), is getting pretty dated. However, I do see New Flyer dropping some Xcelsior variants in the near future (for example, I don't see them building the XDE35, XDE40, and XDE60 beyond 2030 as the XEs should be pretty mature by then and Hybrids will probably be out of style. The XDs and XNs will probably stick around for a while though alongside the XEs and XHEs).

[Kumiko Oumae]

22 hours ago, FlyerD901 said:

I was going to ask the same question. The Xcelsior has been around since 2008. 

But with all the parts issues manufacturers are facing, I wonder if it's bad timing to start up a new product. 

Nova for the most part has had the same model for 30 years. 

But NFI, based on their history, likes to keep things fresh way more frequent than that. 

Personally the Xcelicor look is still in style. And with so many bus manufacturers going under since it's been around. There's no real competition right now, cosmetically.

However , I'd like NFI to redesign the interior front ceiling, where the HVAC is for better placement of information screens for transit agencies. And a more seamless evened out roofline from back to front. I find it dips down in the middle, then back up at both the front and ends, IMO. 

I'm sure NFI has ideas behind the scenes, like they do for MCI. 

11 hours ago, Glennwood Road Ent. said:

That's Correct. 

1 hour ago, New Yorker 2001 said:

 

 

I do agree that New Flyer does need more bus platforms as the Xcelsior (while not as old as its rivals the Advantage and LFS), is getting pretty dated. However, I do see New Flyer dropping some Xcelsior variants in the near future (for example, I don't see them building the XDE35, XDE40, and XDE60 beyond 2030 as the XEs should be pretty mature by then and Hybrids will probably be out of style. The XDs and XNs will probably stick around for a while though alongside the XEs and XHEs).

Since New Flyer only offers one model, the Xcelsior, maybe they should bring back the LF line using either the 1991-2013 version (LF) or the 2006-2014 version (LFR) under the New Flyer Classic line for old times sake as an option. Each TA will choose an order for the Xcelsior or Classic model.

Oh boy, imagine a New Flyer CE40 (C= Classic,E=Electric,40=40 foot) with the Classic body on the outside and the Xcelsior components on the inside. It's like a bus version of the iPhone SE albeit a cheaper version of the Xcelsior.

[FlyerD901]

25 minutes ago, Kumiko Oumae said:

Since New Flyer only offers one model, the Xcelsior, maybe they should bring back the LF line using either the 1991-2013 version (LF) or the 2006-2014 version (LFR) under the New Flyer Classic line for old times sake as an option. Each TA will choose an order for the Xcelsior or Classic model.

Oh boy, imagine a New Flyer CE40 (C= Classic,E=Electric,40=40 foot) with the Classic body on the outside and the Xcelsior components on the inside. It's like a bus version of the iPhone SE albeit a cheaper version of the Xcelsior.

You're in your fantasy. Lol 

It was discussed already the complications of starting op a new model, even having two models going on at the same time adds cost, in this case unessessary cost. With the financial challenges most manufacturers are having , this wouldn't make sense. Extra parts , no longer a streamline production, storage for seperate models. All that adds cost to productions. And I'm pretty sure NFI owes the government money too. 

From a strict fantasy point, NFI has a better chance with HF buses again, because at least you could potentially target a broader market with shuttles services, charter services, and suburban agencies. And I'm only entertaining that strictly out of dreams and fantasy. Where as the LF is just an option within the same market. Just adds more cost. 

But bringing back the LF with all the new rules and regulations that the current Xcelicior already meets won't make sense. The most basic one will be EPA 2010. Much less the current year 2024.

And even when they have a model ready , look at how Cummins almost didn't have a 2024 engine ready for the hybrid artics. To where NFI had to take it off the market.

The most realistic option , with my limited knowledge, would be for NFI to give the Xcelicor a facelift. Just cosmetics not an actual redesign or new model. Similar to when they brought out the LFR. I don't think a new model is needed. 

 

[MCIBUS]

I'm not a bus expert, but I'm guessing on the manufacture assembly line it all depends on the tooling on that line?

[FlyerD901]

1 hour ago, MCIBUS said:

I'm not a bus expert, but I'm guessing on the manufacture assembly line it all depends on the tooling on that line?

This is it.

Also ordering parts, making extra parts, Storage of those parts, training staff. Loss of a seamless production. Setting up the line for two different models. They might all sound simple , but there's a cost associated to everything mentioned. And an efficiency factor. 

Obviously NFI has has had many different models going on at the same time. HF, LF, LFR, BRT, Invero, and Coach vikings buses between 1999 and 2006. Plus various propulsion, etc.

Now NFI has the same frame for the most part that they can make various length and propulsion. Way simpler, efficient  and cost effective than having more than one model. 

I'm actually surprised NFI doesn't have a 30ft Xcelsior . Like they did for the LF. 

I'm also no bus expert. But I've also seen assembly lines. And I'm sure we've been in some business class were were they discuss operations and efficiency in production.

And talking about tooling, you now also have to sell some transit agencies on new tooling for new buses which I would assume would affect how you win bids on bus contracts. 

[Antonov AN-225 Mriya]

15 hours ago, FlyerD901 said:

You're in your fantasy. Lol 

It was discussed already the complications of starting op a new model, even having two models going on at the same time adds cost, in this case unessessary cost. With the financial challenges most manufacturers are having , this wouldn't make sense. Extra parts , no longer a streamline production, storage for seperate models. All that adds cost to productions. And I'm pretty sure NFI owes the government money too. 

From a strict fantasy point, NFI has a better chance with HF buses again, because at least you could potentially target a broader market with shuttles services, charter services, and suburban agencies. And I'm only entertaining that strictly out of dreams and fantasy. Where as the LF is just an option within the same market. Just adds more cost. 

But bringing back the LF with all the new rules and regulations that the current Xcelicior already meets won't make sense. The most basic one will be EPA 2010. Much less the current year 2024.

And even when they have a model ready , look at how Cummins almost didn't have a 2024 engine ready for the hybrid artics. To where NFI had to take it off the market.

The most realistic option , with my limited knowledge, would be for NFI to give the Xcelicor a facelift. Just cosmetics not an actual redesign or new model. Similar to when they brought out the LFR. I don't think a new model is needed. 

 

During the CUTA 2023 in Edmonton, NewFlyer Sales and service teams Revealed Next Major Change in Xcelsior will be in Engine compartment, this will about EPA 2027 Cummins X10 engine. 

The Current Model Xcelsior Engine Compartment could fit in a bigger engine like X10 with-out any problem, but the new EPA 2027 aftertreatment system and New Cooling System will make some change few component lay-out under the hood .

The service team also revealed few upgrade for Front Axle and Whole bus susprison system, for able to support the heavier GVWR as well as improve Xcelsior cornering Leaning  problem.

[FlyerD901]

6 hours ago, Antonov AN-225 Mriya said:

During the CUTA 2023 in Edmonton, NewFlyer Sales and service teams Revealed Next Major Change in Xcelsior will be in Engine compartment, this will about EPA 2027 Cummins X10 engine. 

The Current Model Xcelsior Engine Compartment could fit in a bigger engine like X10 with-out any problem, but the new EPA 2027 aftertreatment system and New Cooling System will make some change few component lay-out under the hood .

The service team also revealed few upgrade for Front Axle and Whole bus susprison system, for able to support the heavier GVWR as well as improve Xcelsior cornering Leaning  problem.

I wonder with all the new changes and upgrades for EPA, are new buses 41 feet long to accommodate all the components, but still classifying them as 40ft long? Similar to when NFI had the DE41LF for a short while and simply renamed them DE40LF with the Allison hybridrive, despite them being 41feet long? 

 

[MCIBUS]

Well Prevost had the 41H3 for a while

[wt_enthusiast_photos]

So i took this photo back in AUG 2023 but doesnt seem to be on the wiki on the XE60 page,  would anyone have info on it.  im mainly looking for year it was made  

[ZümmyZüm]

3 hours ago, wt_enthusiast_photos said:

So i took this photo back in AUG 2023 but doesnt seem to be on the wiki on the XE60 page,  would anyone have info on it.  im mainly looking for year it was made  

From when it was at our agencies garage for a demo I believe they stated it was a 2017 build and has gone through a few fuel mode conversions over the years 

Altoona testing confirms the build date June 2017 with VIN 5FYB8YJ0XHB051875. The builders plate states electric so I'm unsure if the NFI rep had the correct info on fuel conversions 

 

 

[MVTArider]

On 3/6/2024 at 1:51 PM, FlyerD901 said:

I'm actually surprised NFI doesn't have a 30ft Xcelsior . Like they did for the LF.

From a purely bus fan perspective an X_30 model would be pretty cool. The C30LF and D30LF were always fun to get photos of and ride. Would love to see a 30' heavy-duty transit bus with the Xcelsior styling.

From a practical perspective, very unlikely, though maybe not impossible...

• The main downside of the C30LF/D30LF model was all the hassles of heavy-duty bus maintenance, fuel economy, and purchase price while getting the same 25 seat capacity as a medium duty cutaway. No rear door option may have been an issue as well.
• With the downsizing of manufacturers to Gillig and NFI for the US market, neither really has much incentive to be expanding/revamping their model lineup aside from routine improvements and minor design updates. They'll both have plenty of business for what they currently build for a while.
• It seems like many fleets that did run some 30' buses have since opted to replace those with either 35' for a little more capacity, or 40' for fleet commonality.
• I'm not sure how modular the Xcelsior is compared to the old LF/R, but even if similar I'm sure putting together a 30' version would still require extensive engineering, testing, Altoona certification, etc.
• NFI also owns ARBOC and Alexander Dennis, so it might be better for them to either engineer a solid med/heavy-duty ARBOC 30' model, or beef up the Enviro200 MMC for the North American market, if they wanted to pursue more orders in the 30' heavy-duty market segment in the future.
• While Gillig will now be the only well known manufacturer for 30' heavy-duty or med/heavy-duty transit buses with ENC exiting the market, they may be able to fill most of that demand regardless. In many of the fleets running 30' units they are only ordering 1-5 every couple years.
• That said I could see an XE30 model making some sense as every bit of vehicle weight reduction can add more range. If the 30' heavy-duty market segment shows some real promise from a lack of competition and trimming down an Xcelsior frame to 30' and marketing it isn't too much of a gamble then maybe it could happen. 

 

[wt_enthusiast_photos]

4 hours ago, ZümmyZüm said:

From when it was at our agencies garage for a demo I believe they stated it was a 2017 build and has gone through a few fuel mode conversions over the years 

Altoona testing confirms the build date June 2017 with VIN 5FYB8YJ0XHB051875. The builders plate states electric so I'm unsure if the NFI rep had the correct info on fuel conversions 

 

 

So it is the one that’s listed on the wiki ?

[ZümmyZüm]

8 hours ago, wt_enthusiast_photos said:

So it is the one that’s listed on the wiki ?

Yes it's the same vehicle, all they did was remove the wrap and change seating inserts. Here's an image showing the old wrap partially left on 

 

[wt_enthusiast_photos]

2 hours ago, ZümmyZüm said:

Yes it's the same vehicle, all they did was remove the wrap and change seating inserts. Here's an image showing the old wrap partially left on 

 

Thanks for the info