Miscellaneous TTC Discussion & Questions

[Xtrazsteve]

I'm seeing a decreased number of artics on the 29 Dufferin and none on the 7 Bathurst on weekends. I wonder if the decreasing ridership have gotten TTC to reduce the number of fuel hungry artics on the road to reduce operating costs as less riders are riding them.

Just another point that artics are inefficient and TTC should and would never buy them again in the next decade.

[98 Willowdale-Senlac]

12 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

I'm seeing a decreased number of artics on the 29 Dufferin and none on the 7 Bathurst on weekends. I wonder if the decreasing ridership have gotten TTC to reduce the number of fuel hungry artics on the road to reduce operating costs as less riders are riding them.

Just another point that artics are inefficient and TTC should and would never buy them again in the next decade.

Yesterday one of the 7 Bathurst bus was crush loaded

[dowlingm]

18 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

I'm seeing a decreased number of artics on the 29 Dufferin and none on the 7 Bathurst on weekends. I wonder if the decreasing ridership have gotten TTC to reduce the number of fuel hungry artics on the road to reduce operating costs as less riders are riding them.

Just another point that artics are inefficient and TTC should and would never buy them again in the next decade.

Last weekend there were artics at Coxwell/Danforth (Coxwell Loop being closed) which led to congestion at the temporary stops. I have some pics on my phone which I haven't got around to uploading

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/archives/weblog/2016/06/30-canada_day.shtml#t22a

 

[Xtrazsteve]

3 hours ago, dowlingm said:

Last weekend there were artics at Coxwell/Danforth (Coxwell Loop being closed) which led to congestion at the temporary stops. I have some pics on my phone which I haven't got around to uploading

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/archives/weblog/2016/06/30-canada_day.shtml#t22a

 

I am well aware. I put a list of them on the sightings thread. Then there was a significant drop of artics the next service weekday. That was really strange. That was a special event which happens every year which doesn't indicate ridership stability. I'm talking about normal days.

Also the 22 were running pretty empty up till around 9pm when the 92(which it was interlined with on that day) started jamming up near Queen which led to large gaps. I was there at Coxwell at 8pm and they buses had plenty of seats. They had more than enough service until gaps appeared.

 

9 hours ago, Flyer E902 said:

Yesterday one of the 7 Bathurst bus was crush loaded

The 7 always gets to that point. Probably due to bunching and short turns than increase ridership. They used to have artics on the 7 on weekends and more on the 29. Way less were out yesterday. Usually it's 3/4 artics but it was 1/2 artics yesterday.

[16 McCowan]

Having been to High Park, Jane and Old Mill, seems to me they are one of the last stations with the bus terminal in the non-fare paid area. I've also been to Wellesley which was used to have a bus terminal in the non-fare paid area. I wonder what happened to it?

[Articulated]

3 hours ago, 21 Brimley said:

Having been to High Park, Jane and Old Mill, seems to me they are one of the last stations with the bus terminal in the non-fare paid area. I've also been to Wellesley which was used to have a bus terminal in the non-fare paid area. I wonder what happened to it?

The bus terminal at Wellesley Station is the same one as is there now. They simply moved the fare gates to bring the terminal inside the fare paid area.

Most stations outside the downtown core originally had bus terminals outside the fare-paid area. This design dates back to the 2-zone fare system present until the 1970s. Most stations had their fare gates moved to bring the bus terminal inside the fare paid area, but the 3 stations you mentioned have designs that make it impossible to make the terminals a fare paid area.

[dayone]

What is the length of time it takes from signing up for a route to finding out you'll get to operate it by the next board?

[TTCOpITM]

13 hours ago, dayone said:

What is the length of time it takes from signing up for a route to finding out you'll get to operate it by the next board?

In streetcars, we have 5 selections. Every operator at the division is grouped into one of these selections according to their seniority, with the most senior operators in the 1st and the most junior operators in the 5th respectively. Each selection signs up on a different day. Once the sign-up is over (the 5th selection has signed) each piece of work and its respective operator's name is recorded and condensed into a booklet that is placed in the division by the day after sign-up concludes for each operator to see what work they got. If you were at sign-up, you'll already know your work once you pick it. If you couldn't make it to sign-up, you'd check the booklet once it is complete. Sign-up for each board period usually takes place 4-5 weeks before the board period that you're signing for is scheduled to begin. So you'll know the work for the next board period 4 weeks in advance.

[Ed T.]

21 hours ago, Articulated said:

The bus terminal at Wellesley Station is the same one as is there now. They simply moved the fare gates to bring the terminal inside the fare paid area.

Most stations outside the downtown core originally had bus terminals outside the fare-paid area. This design dates back to the 2-zone fare system present until the 1970s. Most stations had their fare gates moved to bring the bus terminal inside the fare paid area, but the 3 stations you mentioned have designs that make it impossible to make the terminals a fare paid area.

Was Wellesley not a paid-fare loop from the get-go? It's hard to see where you would locate the turnstiles to make free access to the buses but fare-paid to the subway, since the steps down to the subway are pretty far forward. The entry/exit to the buses would have had to be at the very front of the station.

I think I've seen pictures of Wellesley station in the old days, and I think it was laid out pretty much as it is now.

Most station outside the "downtown core" still had fare-paid transfers. St. Clair and Eglinton for sure (not sure about Rosedale and Davisville). I think that every station on the original Bloor-Danforth (which means, within zone 1) that had a loop, had it as a fare-paid zone. I could be wrong on some of the east-end stations, but Keele, Dundas West, Bathurst had fare-paid loops. Stations beyond the old City of Toronto/Zone 1 on the B-D extensions didn't have fare-paid loops, starting at Jane (edge case) to the west, and I would guess Victoria Park in the east.

[dayone]

6 hours ago, TTCOpITM said:

In streetcars, we have 5 selections. Every operator at the division is grouped into one of these selections according to their seniority, with the most senior operators in the 1st and the most junior operators in the 5th respectively. Each selection signs up on a different day. Once the sign-up is over (the 5th selection has signed) each piece of work and its respective operator's name is recorded and condensed into a booklet that is placed in the division by the day after sign-up concludes for each operator to see what work they got. If you were at sign-up, you'll already know your work once you pick it. If you couldn't make it to sign-up, you'd check the booklet once it is complete. Sign-up for each board period usually takes place 4-5 weeks before the board period that you're signing for is scheduled to begin. So you'll know the work for the next board period 4 weeks in advance.

During sign-up, is that also the time when operators choose the hours they want on the route? And is your chosen work set in stone? Is it possible to choose something else after the booklet is released?

[TTCOpITM]

2 hours ago, dayone said:

During sign-up, is that also the time when operators choose the hours they want on the route? And is your chosen work set in stone? Is it possible to choose something else after the booklet is released?

For each board period, most operators will choose what we call a crew. A crew basically indicates: the route, the report time, which run to operator, where and when to take over, and where and when to get relieved. Example: 1 Crew 501 Queen (501032 4:34A [RUSS 4:44A 9:46A CQEN]  501032 [CQEN 10:19A 1:14P CQEN]). This crew indicates that the route is 501 Queen, the operator is to report to the division at 4:34 am, take 32 run Queen out of Russell carhouse by 4:44am, gets relieved at Connaught and Queen at 9:46am, takes over 32 run Queen again at 10:19am at Connaught and Queen and gets relieved for the day at 1:14pm at Connaught and Queen. A crew also comes with off days. Let's say that this one comes with Thursday/Friday off. The operator who picks this crew would do this work Monday through Wednesday for six weeks and will have Thursday and Friday off. Crews that don't have Saturday and Sunday as off days come with a Saturday crew attached (the schedule is different on a Saturday) and Sunday work is picked separately (Sunday schedule is different from weekday and Saturday schedule). With some crews you could be on one route during one part of your day and another route at another part of the same day. Saturday and Sunday work will not necessarily be on the same route as on the week days. And the routes on Saturday and Sunday can differ from each other as well. Each crew also has something called crew value which indicates how many hours and minutes the operator will be paid for after doing the crew for a day. So as you've probably noticed, it's a bit more complex than some people may think. And no, once you've picked your work, you're stuck with it for the duration of the board period.

[Ed T.]

I thought a bit more about fare-paid loops at subway stations....

For the original Yonge line, all stations with loops* were fare-paid with the possible exception of Davisville: Eglinton, St. Clair, Rosedale, Bloor*, Wellesley

For the University line, I suspect St. George had a fare-paid loop, but what with temporary Bedford loop I'm not sure.

For the original Bloor-Danforth, every station with a loop was fare-paid.

For the '68 Bloor-Danforth extension, none of the stations had a fare-paid loop. That's why there are huge mezzanines under Royal York and Main Street. I remember passing through the turnstiles at Islinton to get from the bus to the subway. (Oddly, I don't recall paying a fare when getting on the bus!)

With North Yonge, I'm not sure if it was a mixed bag, since Lawrence and Finch are obviously fare-paid, while York Mills and Sheppard may not have been. (And both have changed a lot, unlike Lawrence.

Spadina was fare-paid where station loops were used.

TL;DR: the only group subway stations where fare-paid station loops were not generally or wholly implemented right from the start was for the 1968 Bloor-Danforth extension.

[Articulated]

1 minute ago, Ed T. said:

I thought a bit more about fare-paid loops at subway stations....

For the original Yonge line, all stations with loops* were fare-paid with the possible exception of Davisville: Eglinton, St. Clair, Rosedale, Bloor*, Wellesley

For the University line, I suspect St. George had a fare-paid loop, but what with temporary Bedford loop I'm not sure.

For the original Bloor-Danforth, every station with a loop was fare-paid.

For the '68 Bloor-Danforth extension, none of the stations had a fare-paid loop. That's why there are huge mezzanines under Royal York and Main Street. I remember passing through the turnstiles at Islinton to get from the bus to the subway. (Oddly, I don't recall paying a fare when getting on the bus!)

With North Yonge, I'm not sure if it was a mixed bag, since Lawrence and Finch are obviously fare-paid, while York Mills and Sheppard may not have been. (And both have changed a lot, unlike Lawrence.

Spadina was fare-paid where station loops were used.

TL;DR: the only group subway stations where fare-paid station loops were not generally or wholly implemented right from the start was for the 1968 Bloor-Danforth extension.

Finch, Sheppard, and York Mills were not originally designed as fare-paid terminals, as they physically resided in Zone 2.

According to Transit Toronto, Finch was converted fairly quickly to a fare-paid terminal, York Mills was converted in the mid-1990s when the current bus terminal underneath the office tower was constructed, and Sheppard was only converted in 2002 before the opening of the Sheppard subway. Proof of Finch having a bus terminal outside the fare paid zone would be the extra unused collector's booth at the T-intersection between the stairs up to the bus terminal and the hallway leading towards the subway concourse.

[Ed T.]

3 minutes ago, Articulated said:

Finch, Sheppard, and York Mills were not originally designed as fare-paid terminals, as they physically resided in Zone 2.

According to Transit Toronto, Finch was converted fairly quickly to a fare-paid terminal, York Mills was converted in the mid-1990s when the current bus terminal underneath the office tower was constructed, and Sheppard was only converted in 2002 before the opening of the Sheppard subway. Proof of Finch having a bus terminal outside the fare paid zone would be the extra unused collector's booth at the T-intersection between the stairs up to the bus terminal and the hallway leading towards the subway concourse.

Ah, fair enough. That would explan the massive size of the walkway in Finch to the TTC bus terminal.

So we can add North Yonge to "didn't generally have fare-paid loops", since three of the four didn't have it. Blame Zone 2.

[dayone]

On 7/13/2016 at 6:57 PM, TTCOpITM said:

For each board period, most operators will choose what we call a crew. A crew basically indicates: the route, the report time, which run to operator, where and when to take over, and where and when to get relieved. Example: 1 Crew 501 Queen (501032 4:34A [RUSS 4:44A 9:46A CQEN]  501032 [CQEN 10:19A 1:14P CQEN]). This crew indicates that the route is 501 Queen, the operator is to report to the division at 4:34 am, take 32 run Queen out of Russell carhouse by 4:44am, gets relieved at Connaught and Queen at 9:46am, takes over 32 run Queen again at 10:19am at Connaught and Queen and gets relieved for the day at 1:14pm at Connaught and Queen. A crew also comes with off days. Let's say that this one comes with Thursday/Friday off. The operator who picks this crew would do this work Monday through Wednesday for six weeks and will have Thursday and Friday off. Crews that don't have Saturday and Sunday as off days come with a Saturday crew attached (the schedule is different on a Saturday) and Sunday work is picked separately (Sunday schedule is different from weekday and Saturday schedule). With some crews you could be on one route during one part of your day and another route at another part of the same day. Saturday and Sunday work will not necessarily be on the same route as on the week days. And the routes on Saturday and Sunday can differ from each other as well. Each crew also has something called crew value which indicates how many hours and minutes the operator will be paid for after doing the crew for a day. So as you've probably noticed, it's a bit more complex than some people may think. And no, once you've picked your work, you're stuck with it for the duration of the board period.

Thank you TTCOpITM for your time and patience. I was not expecting such a detailed response! Yes, it is complex but I think I understand what you're saying. I just want to confirm one thing: Crew sign-up is done on paper in the division, yes? Doesn't this create a huge line-up? How long do you wait before it's your turn to choose?

 

[leylandvictory2]

yes it is done on paper.  Yes there is huge line up.  As to how long you have to wait, that depends on where you are on the sign up.  Since I am the top of my selection, it only takes me like 5 minutes. 

[yrt1000]

On July 13, 2016 at 6:57 PM, TTCOpITM said:

For each board period, most operators will choose what we call a crew. A crew basically indicates: the route, the report time, which run to operator, where and when to take over, and where and when to get relieved. Example: 1 Crew 501 Queen (501032 4:34A [RUSS 4:44A 9:46A CQEN]  501032 [CQEN 10:19A 1:14P CQEN]). This crew indicates that the route is 501 Queen, the operator is to report to the division at 4:34 am, take 32 run Queen out of Russell carhouse by 4:44am, gets relieved at Connaught and Queen at 9:46am, takes over 32 run Queen again at 10:19am at Connaught and Queen and gets relieved for the day at 1:14pm at Connaught and Queen. A crew also comes with off days. Let's say that this one comes with Thursday/Friday off. The operator who picks this crew would do this work Monday through Wednesday for six weeks and will have Thursday and Friday off. Crews that don't have Saturday and Sunday as off days come with a Saturday crew attached (the schedule is different on a Saturday) and Sunday work is picked separately (Sunday schedule is different from weekday and Saturday schedule). With some crews you could be on one route during one part of your day and another route at another part of the same day. Saturday and Sunday work will not necessarily be on the same route as on the week days. And the routes on Saturday and Sunday can differ from each other as well. Each crew also has something called crew value which indicates how many hours and minutes the operator will be paid for after doing the crew for a day. So as you've probably noticed, it's a bit more complex than some people may think. And no, once you've picked your work, you're stuck with it for the duration of the board period.

Interesting stuff! However, in this example, what happens on Thursday and Friday when the operator doing run 32 is off? Does a spare board operator do this crew on those days? Or does run 32 just 'not exist' on those days?

[TTCOpITM]

1 hour ago, yrt1000 said:

Interesting stuff! However, in this example, what happens on Thursday and Friday when the operator doing run 32 is off? Does a spare board operator do this crew on those days? Or does run 32 just 'not exist' on those days?

There is a type of work called off day swing work which can be signed at sign-up. Swing operators do the off day work of other operators. Let's say the swing crew you sign has Sunday/Saturday off. On Monday, you'll do the off day work for one operator, Tuesday and Wednesday you'll do the off day work for another operator and Thursday and Friday you'll do the off day work for yet another operator.

Other than that, I'd assume the work would go to spareboard.

[Kelvin3157]

Did anyone seen the new station transfers yet?

[H4 5600]

On 7/20/2016 at 7:47 PM, Kelvin3157 said:

Did anyone seen the new station transfers yet?

I saw one where the back was slightly different, but it wasn't mine so I couldn't check what station it was. IIRC eglinton had a slightly different style machine a few years ago, but they removed it.

[Betablocker]

Quick question about fare collection: at the orientation session I was told that they don't expect operators to be fare enforcers. You are to remind the customer what the fare is but if they are still being difficult just let them go. Then I see videos online where an operator takes the bus out of service because a customer refused to pay the fare. As an operator how do you actually deal with those people?

[H4 5600]

Does anyone know if Queensway is doing the shuttle tomorrow?

[Turtle]

7 hours ago, Betablocker said:

Quick question about fare collection: at the orientation session I was told that they don't expect operators to be fare enforcers. You are to remind the customer what the fare is but if they are still being difficult just let them go. Then I see videos online where an operator takes the bus out of service because a customer refused to pay the fare. As an operator how do you actually deal with those people?

That's the thing, the ttc doesn't want you to deal with these people. It's unfortunate, but they know they can get away with it, and if they are challenged by an operator, they will get an apology and a free ride anyways after they call you all sorts of names. If you happen to be a white male, you may get called a racist cracker a few times a month over stuff like this. The other tactic some of these fare evaders use is fear of physical harm. You challenge them on the fare, they spit on you or punch you in the side of the head, or stab you.

 

So, with both the TTC and the union telling you what to do, why would you go beyond what they tell you and get yourself into conflict? When the TTC is short enough on funds, maybe they'll figure out a better way to handle collecting fares. Maybe they could station a few special constables at the subway stations to catch people walking in off the street to make up for some of the income lost by people not paying a full fare on a bus. Maybe they could stop giving free rides to kids or anybody who claims they are a child even though they have a full beard. Until then, the people who rip the system off the most will be the loudest ones complaining about how much the system sucks, and how long they have to wait for a vehicle. 

 

Not moving the bus until the fare evader is removed is traditionally the only way an operator can make something happen, but then the whole busload of mostly paying honest customers gets inconvenienced, which isn't fair to them. I would only have the courage to do that in a situation where I was being verbally abused or threatened by the non paying passenger. The other passengers won't help you out, because all they care about is getting where they need to be. Unless a customer (or me) is being threatened or is in need of medical assistance, I would keep it moving. 

[Xtrazsteve]

2 hours ago, Turtle said:

That's the thing, the ttc doesn't want you to deal with these people. It's unfortunate, but they know they can get away with it, and if they are challenged by an operator, they will get an apology and a free ride anyways after they call you all sorts of names. If you happen to be a white male, you may get called a racist cracker a few times a month over stuff like this. The other tactic some of these fare evaders use is fear of physical harm. You challenge them on the fare, they spit on you or punch you in the side of the head, or stab you.

 

So, with both the TTC and the union telling you what to do, why would you go beyond what they tell you and get yourself into conflict? When the TTC is short enough on funds, maybe they'll figure out a better way to handle collecting fares. Maybe they could station a few special constables at the subway stations to catch people walking in off the street to make up for some of the income lost by people not paying a full fare on a bus. Maybe they could stop giving free rides to kids or anybody who claims they are a child even though they have a full beard. Until then, the people who rip the system off the most will be the loudest ones complaining about how much the system sucks, and how long they have to wait for a vehicle. 

 

Not moving the bus until the fare evader is removed is traditionally the only way an operator can make something happen, but then the whole busload of mostly paying honest customers gets inconvenienced, which isn't fair to them. I would only have the courage to do that in a situation where I was being verbally abused or threatened by the non paying passenger. The other passengers won't help you out, because all they care about is getting where they need to be. Unless a customer (or me) is being threatened or is in need of medical assistance, I would keep it moving. 

Also note that by taking the bus out of service, it's one less bus on the road which causes more bunching and ineffective use of the bus and operator. If the op gets injured in a conflict, that's one less op available to work while the op should still get his/her payroll. That person that is not paying may not have paid the fare anyways so is it worth all this hassle from the big picture? probably not. It's cheaper for the fare evaders to board than stir up a conflict.

Everyone is busy and wouldn't help the op in most cases cause they also risk getting injured. As a TTC customer, not a fare enforcer, why would anyone want to risk that?

[dayone]

There is a fare dispute button on the Trump unit of a vehicle. Do operators use it only when they fear an assault may occur? What happens after they press it?