Air conditioning problems for the TTC vehicles (buses, subways)

[raptorjays]

I know it is summer season, and there will be many days which all of us need A/C to stay cool.

However, I could still see so many vehicles with malfunctioning A/C system for the last few days.

I remember several subway cars had A/C not working between August and September last year, and I feel confident to say that the TTC failed to solve the problem.

They had about 8 to 9 months to fix the problem and there are still many vehicles running without  A/C on really hot days. 

Subway air conditioning problem is even worse especially some of the older trains. (Including T1) I frequently use line 2, and I spot at least one set of subway car without A/C running

I really think it is very serious problem for the TTC, and they need to find solutions quickly to minimize the problem.

[Xtrazsteve]

And now in the 21th century, AC becomes a mandatory thing. Think of what your grandparents have to go through. A boiling streetcar with no AC. Think of what your great great great grandparents have to go through. Working on a farm or factory under horrible working conditions with no AC. Now we're whining about this first world luxury.

Some people in this world isn't going to survive if we had a zombie apocalypse or a week long power outage and it's getting worst.

I agree they should fix the subways at least so people don't faint and cause more delays but not because you can't survive without AC. Sometimes they just can't fix things but would rather provide a vehicle to move people instead of nothing. Transit is about moving people, not for people to enjoy AC. Montreal and Vancouver don't have AC on their majority of the fleet, we are very lucky in Toronto. Even the new Azur subway trains on the STM don't have AC.

[nfitz]

7 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

And now in the 21th century, AC becomes a mandatory thing. Think of what your grandparents have to go through. A boiling streetcar with no AC. Think of what your great great great grandparents have to go through. Working on a farm or factory under horrible working conditions with no AC. Now we're whining about this first world luxury.

Some people in this world isn't going to survive if we had a zombie apocalypse or a week long power outage and it's getting worst.

I agree they should fix the subways at least so people don't faint and cause more delays but not because you can't survive without AC. Sometimes they just can't fix things but would rather provide a vehicle to move people instead of nothing. Transit is about moving people, not for people to enjoy AC. Montreal and Vancouver don't have AC on their majority of the fleet, we are very lucky in Toronto. Even the new Azur subway trains on the STM don't have AC.

Hang on.  You can't compare an old streetcar to a new subway car or bus that doesn't have AC.

 

The streetcars have lots of windows, low down, that open, and provide at least a decent breeze on a hot day.  On a hot day, with it's small windows high-up, a bus with no A/C is far more uncomfortable than an old streetcar. The old non-AC buses also had much bigger windows.

The subway cars are even worse, without windows.  The old non-AC cars had big fans in the ceiling that provided ventilation, from the cooler tunnels.

On a hot day, if a bus or subway car has no A/C, it should be out-of-service; it's not comparable to days of old. It's far worse.

[raptorjays]

15 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

And now in the 21th century, AC becomes a mandatory thing. Think of what your grandparents have to go through. A boiling streetcar with no AC. Think of what your great great great grandparents have to go through. Working on a farm or factory under horrible working conditions with no AC. Now we're whining about this first world luxury.

Some people in this world isn't going to survive if we had a zombie apocalypse or a week long power outage and it's getting worst.

I agree they should fix the subways at least so people don't faint and cause more delays but not because you can't survive without AC. Sometimes they just can't fix things but would rather provide a vehicle to move people instead of nothing. Transit is about moving people, not for people to enjoy AC. Montreal and Vancouver don't have AC on their majority of the fleet, we are very lucky in Toronto. Even the new Azur subway trains on the STM don't have AC.

It is 2016, and looks like you are living in 1986.. or even 1976

Why do you think subways having no A/C is common and we should be lucky about that? The A/C problem is even worse in the subway because there are no ways to cool down other than turning on the A/C. At least you can open the window on the buses and streetcars. 

You can't just compare to the vehicle without A/C system, and one with A/C but not working. 

[leylandvictory2]

you think it sucks?  How about the driver stuck inside the bus for 8 hours shift.  

[leylandvictory2]

yes, as the old saying goes, "driver makes the call".  However you will have some passengers complaining the a/c is too cold or a/c is too hot argh.  Problem with orion 7 is that either the a/c is on or off.  We can't really adjust the a/c temperature.  Sure there is a switch that can set low or high but I don't find it make too much differences.  

On the OG Orion 7 there is a small vent above the driver window.  It makes a nice breeze provide the bus is travelling 60 km/hr and it is not clogged.

[Xtrazsteve]

5 hours ago, raptorjays said:

It is 2016, and looks like you are living in 1986.. or even 1976

Why do you think subways having no A/C is common and we should be lucky about that? The A/C problem is even worse in the subway because there are no ways to cool down other than turning on the A/C. At least you can open the window on the buses and streetcars. 

You can't just compare to the vehicle without A/C system, and one with A/C but not working. 

Suck it up kid. Life isn't perfect.

On a Nova I was on today on the 195 had all it's windows open. It was quite breezy coasting downhill towards Eglinton. If the subway is really packed and there's no AC, I just get off and take the next train. Also note that if one T1 car doesn't have AC, it doesn't mean the whole train don't have AC.

[T3G]

"Life isn't perfect', a very compelling reason not to do anything about any problem, ever.

I know TTC riders complain about a lot of things that are ridiculous, but malfunctioning A/C can be a health risk. Why be so nonchalant about it? You tell someone to get over having to ride a T1 instead of a TR, not having to deal with busted A/C.

[Blue Bus Fan]

54 minutes ago, 900 Highway 2 said:

You should be thankful that we have them, like Xtrazsteve said, most STM metro trains and Vancouver Skytrains don't even have AC, so I wouldn't complain.

Only Mark I trains don't have A/C, all the other trains of AC on SkyTrain. 

[lip]

To be honest, it would be in the TTC's best interest to fix A/C problems on the trains. People these days have a love affair with the Emergency Assistance Alarm and i've never seen the problem as bad as it is today. 10-15 years ago you wouldn't hear about these problems on a daily basis, but today its a very common occurrence.

Sure they could forgo fixing the problems, but be prepared for the onslaught of people pressing the alarm due to "heat exhaustion" or "fainting because they feel light-headed".

[leylandvictory2]

people think it is funny.  I have people set off the driver alarm on buses.  I say 99% did it on purpose.

[raptorjays]

1 hour ago, Xtrazsteve said:

Suck it up kid. Life isn't perfect.

On a Nova I was on today on the 195 had all it's windows open. It was quite breezy coasting downhill towards Eglinton. If the subway is really packed and there's no AC, I just get off and take the next train. Also note that if one T1 car doesn't have AC, it doesn't mean the whole train don't have AC.

You suck it up.. You are always thinking everything in conservative ways.

I really think major reform is needed for the TTC.

1. They are keep raising fare to penalize frequent users.. I haven't seen any cities raising transit fare every single year. (I lived in many different cities including my home country, and looks like Toronto is the only one)

2. They are saying that they are always trying to make services reliable, but I really don't think that promise came to reality.

3. They are lagging behind in so many things. Technology is keep developing, and the TTC is certainly not matching the speed of the development.

I cannot believe that Toronto has one of the worst transit systems in North America (or even in the world). I know life isn't perfect, but I certainly think Torontonians do not deserve transit system like this. I want some TTC employees or people in high rank to travel some cities in the East Asia (Seoul, Tokyo, Shanghai, etc). They have really organized and reliable transit system. Those cities have more than 10 subway lines and there are barely no delays.. If there was a delay, it is shown on the national news. 

 

[nfitz]

5 hours ago, leylandvictory2 said:

you think it sucks?  How about the driver stuck inside the bus for 8 hours shift.  

I think they are the only one with a decent-sized window.

[raptorjays]

45 minutes ago, 900 Highway 2 said:

also think we should think about the subway drivers, no AC, yes it sucks. But we shouldn't be taking AC for granted as its not everywhere, even in Canada. Its a luxury that we even have it, cause we don't have to.

TTC offers transit service to their customers. 

I'm a student majoring in Hospitality industry, and I was learned that "The customer is always right" in everywhere including school and workplace. This means that customer should come first before employees. 

In 2011, the province of Ontario passed the legislation to classify the TTC an 'ESSENTIAL SERVICE'. This is a great evidence that TTC is a public form of service. 

Since they offer SERVICE, I have to say customer is the number one priority of the TTC, like many other service industries. Around 80% of the profit comes from TTC customers. Therefore, all of the transit users deserve high quality of service.

In the service industry, high quality of service is always a key. However, it looks like TTC is not doing that. 

When customer complains about major problems, they need to find the way to solve the problem immediately to ensure better service. (I know it is not happening on the TTC)

Lastly, we all live in democratic society. When many customer request to turn on the A/C, the driver must do it. If not, the driver is just same as North Korean leader.  

[Xtrazsteve]

2 hours ago, raptorjays said:

You suck it up.. You are always thinking everything in conservative ways.

I really think major reform is needed for the TTC.

1. They are keep raising fare to penalize frequent users.. I haven't seen any cities raising transit fare every single year. (I lived in many different cities including my home country, and looks like Toronto is the only one)

2. They are saying that they are always trying to make services reliable, but I really don't think that promise came to reality.

3. They are lagging behind in so many things. Technology is keep developing, and the TTC is certainly not matching the speed of the development.

I cannot believe that Toronto has one of the worst transit systems in North America (or even in the world). I know life isn't perfect, but I certainly think Torontonians do not deserve transit system like this. I want some TTC employees or people in high rank to travel some cities in the East Asia (Seoul, Tokyo, Shanghai, etc). They have really organized and reliable transit system. Those cities have more than 10 subway lines and there are barely no delays.. If there was a delay, it is shown on the national news. 

 

Ya major reform. Time for new taxes in TO to pay for this.

Have you realized that TO is not every dense. It cost more to get someone from point A to B so fares have to match that. Peak travel is only in one direction meaning more buses are required but they won't get their full fares back.

TTC riders are along the worst riders in the world. People don't activate the PAA here and there on other systems. Customers are always right doesn't mean they should hold up the bus for 5 minutes asking stupid questions.

Worst system in the world? You haven't been around enough. TTC has it's pros and cons. It runs pretty frequent and gives riders access to the entire city up to 1am. Montreal's subway might be better but it doesn't run that frequent at night. Places like LA doesn't even have a decent transit system. They only build line since the recent decade. NYC subway breaks down pretty often too and they have multiple weekend closures. You can get soaked in the train when it rains. Talk about customer service there.

East Asia and North America are two different places. Their subways have a lot more people riding shorter distances. Most people's trip would only be only from Kipling to Keele. It's cheaper to provide service for them. Still, most transit projects are still funded by the government not through the farebox. The farebox only offsets operation costs. Look at HK, their system makes a lot of money but they still need the government to chip in half the budget for new lines. 

In Toronto, the farebox doesn't even offset the track repairs. Yes there are many problems with the TTC. Their schedules are optimized to the best bang in the buck for wages. Maximizing operation time and making the most use of their operators. This lead to problems like multiple crew changes cause someone needs to get back to Coxwell for their break. Short turns occur to avoid overtime. Line management is terrible. They allow bunching so the driver can get back to the relief point faster. They don't have much recovery time cause they don't want to pay for drivers waiting around doing nothing. Once a trip is late, the next few trips get later and later till they short turn. Then there's the cat and mouse game. Tailgating buses and those who don't give a s*** about schedule.

 

[HB_1024]

Funny how something as little as air conditioning (or lack of) brings out such a fuss in people.

Buses, streetcars, and indeed even subway cars that were without air conditioning were designed without it. Opening windows, bigger window openings, vents, stuff like that. The vehicles that have A/C don't have that (at least not nearly to the same extent). So the two cannot be compared. Can the windows even be opened on the Orion VII? I heard that at least the newer ones had them screwed shut for safety reasons. The ones at OC Transpo all have opening windows at the back, however.

Once you give the public the luxury of A/C, you can't take it back. Much the same way that once you give them a larger/nicer vehicle (TR vs T1, artic vs regular bus, for example) you can't go back on that either. The result will just be complaints, complaints, complaints, most of which may just be stupid.

On very hot days (say, 25C and above), there is zero excuse for putting a vehicle without air conditioning out on the road. It's a safety hazard, more so for the driver than it is any of the passengers, although both are a problem. Outside of that I see no reason to be complaining about air conditioning. The same goes for the heat in the wintertime, there's a certain temperature where it matters.

That being said, there are probably bigger problems for the TTC to deal with than malfunctioning air conditioning, which is why so many vehicles aren't being fixed. The only thing you can really do is get off the vehicle and report it.

[soo8513]

5249 was good example yesterday of a hot car with many moving to next car and others fanning themselves. not aware of TTC's ranking of no A/C in their "need to repair priority list"

[H4 5600]

 I have noticed that Orion vii's, especially mount Dennis ones, have terrible AC. And nobody in the lower part can reach the windows if its crushloaded.

[raptorjays]

5 hours ago, HB_1024 said:

Funny how something as little as air conditioning (or lack of) brings out such a fuss in people.

Buses, streetcars, and indeed even subway cars that were without air conditioning were designed without it. Opening windows, bigger window openings, vents, stuff like that. The vehicles that have A/C don't have that (at least not nearly to the same extent). So the two cannot be compared. Can the windows even be opened on the Orion VII? I heard that at least the newer ones had them screwed shut for safety reasons. The ones at OC Transpo all have opening windows at the back, however.

Once you give the public the luxury of A/C, you can't take it back. Much the same way that once you give them a larger/nicer vehicle (TR vs T1, artic vs regular bus, for example) you can't go back on that either. The result will just be complaints, complaints, complaints, most of which may just be stupid.

On very hot days (say, 25C and above), there is zero excuse for putting a vehicle without air conditioning out on the road. It's a safety hazard, more so for the driver than it is any of the passengers, although both are a problem. Outside of that I see no reason to be complaining about air conditioning. The same goes for the heat in the wintertime, there's a certain temperature where it matters.

That being said, there are probably bigger problems for the TTC to deal with than malfunctioning air conditioning, which is why so many vehicles aren't being fixed. The only thing you can really do is get off the vehicle and report it.

I will attempt to bring this issue on the local news (like CTV or CityNews) I don't know if they are actually gonna show it on the news, but it  definitely will increase public awareness of the problem

[Neil]

here's the list if you're interested of broken a/c units:

5000, 02, 03,11, 14, 20, 21, 23, 25, 26, 33, 34, 38, 39, 43, 52, 57, 58, 60, 67, 71, 78, 79, 80, 87, 97

5102, 05, 07, 10, 11, 13, 24, 39, 42, 46, 48, 51, 67, 73, 75, 77, 82, 83, 86, 99

5202, 10, 11, 12, 16, 18, 40, 42, 44, 45, 46, 49, 54, 59, 61, 65, 68, 292

5307,13, 15, 21, 22, 25, 45, 54, 61, 62, 68, 69

 

[raptorjays]

5 hours ago, Neil said:

here's the list if you're interested of broken a/c units:

5000, 02, 03,11, 14, 20, 21, 23, 25, 26, 33, 34, 38, 39, 43, 52, 57, 58, 60, 67, 71, 78, 79, 80, 87, 97

5102, 05, 07, 10, 11, 13, 24, 39, 42, 46, 48, 51, 67, 73, 75, 77, 82, 83, 86, 99

5202, 10, 11, 12, 16, 18, 40, 42, 44, 45, 46, 49, 54, 59, 61, 65, 68, 292

5307,13, 15, 21, 22, 25, 45, 54, 61, 62, 68, 69

 

Thank you for the list

5024-5025 and 5114-5115 didn't have A/C when I spotted yesterday

[nfitz]

1 hour ago, raptorjays said:

Thank you for the list

5024-5025 and 5114-5115 didn't have A/C when I spotted yesterday

Both cars in each pair? 

[Bus_Medic]

On June 23, 2016 at 7:48 PM, leylandvictory2 said:

you think it sucks?  How about the driver stuck inside the bus for 8 hours shift.  

Ill pity you when the garage I spend an 8 hour shift in  gets a/c. Until then, suck it up.

 

changing off for customer service reasons? Sure. I get that. But when operators start the whole "I'm there for 8 hours" thing.....it's the smallest violin I've ever heard.

[nfitz]

Shocked to hear that there aren't toilets in the garages!

[raptorjays]

Looks like this problem is getting bigger and bigger.

I could see several complaints about not working A/C on Twitter.