TTC Collector Controversy

[Bus_Medic]

Even if that were true, and I'm not saying it is just because you made a discriminatory blanket statement does'nt mean everyone deserves to be treated the same, no matter what 'class' you think they are.

+1

And all I can advise drivers is to do your part by treating all transit riders with the utmost respect. Especially the ones that don't to you. Rise above their actions and act like the professionals you profess to be.

after dealing with the same shit and filth for 6 years with no sign of improvement, you'd be cranky too.

i'm only human....if you're a prick to me then i'll be a prick back.

that goes if they're a passenger or other commission employee. i don't care.

christ, i've been called into the office because someone lodged a complaint after i drove past them on my way to a changeoff on sheppard.

the foreman knew what the circumstances were but "standard procedure" bullshit obligated him to forward it to me.

-wearing a flourescent orange jacket

-not in service on the desto sign

-moving at 60k/hr in the inside lane

i can't win.

[rob9701]

The number of non-unionized people out there these days greatly exceeds those who are unionized and in government. Municipalities are struggling with their finances, especially Toronto. At the same time the gap between pay in these two groups, as well as general job security and benefits is growing quickly.

I don't think that this is just about people being ticked at TTC employees and bad customer service, although that may help bring it to the forefront. It's been a rough year for a lot of people. Lost jobs, no raise, and uncertainty are everywhere. The times aren't going to drive workers to unite and form unions - that may have happened decades ago. Instead it will unfold differently today, with those who are on the municipal/government payroll wearing the bullseye getting dragged down toward what everyone else is making.

And we'll likely all end up poorer as a result.

[Hermid]

I have seen bus operators from Peterborough stop the bus and disopear for 5 minutes to goto Tim Horton's on a couple of occasions. I remember seeing bus's stoped infront of the Tim Hortons(with people in them) on Hunter street East on a almost daily basis. They dont always get coffee some times they stop to use the bathroom, but they only do it they are ahead of schedule. I have also seen Go Bus Drivers stop at Mr. Burger on Bloor Street in Oshawa.

[shambala]

The number of non-unionized people out there these days greatly exceeds those who are unionized and in government. Municipalities are struggling with their finances, especially Toronto. At the same time the gap between pay in these two groups, as well as general job security and benefits is growing quickly.

I don't think that this is just about people being ticked at TTC employees and bad customer service, although that may help bring it to the forefront. It's been a rough year for a lot of people. Lost jobs, no raise, and uncertainty are everywhere. The times aren't going to drive workers to unite and form unions - that may have happened decades ago. Instead it will unfold differently today, with those who are on the municipal/government payroll wearing the bullseye getting dragged down toward what everyone else is making.

And we'll likely all end up poorer as a result.

I agree, this has now moved well past people being ticked at TTC employees and bad customer service. That may have been the initial catalyst but the underlying issues festering for years have now come home to roost with the tough economic times. It's similar to the working class struggles of the past only this is more pronounced because you have a certain sector of public workers supposed to service the public yet their wages and benefits are not only viewed as out of control but totally out of sync with the reality in the working world. This inevitably breeds a sense of entitlement amongst those who already have, and resentment amongst those who have not and will never have, in the rest of society.

[rob9701]

I agree, this has now moved well past people being ticked at TTC employees and bad customer service. That may have been the initial catalyst but the underlying issues festering for years have now come home to roost with the tough economic times. It's similar to the working class struggles of the past only this is more pronounced because you have a certain sector of public workers supposed to service the public yet their wages and benefits are not only viewed as out of control but totally out of sync with the reality in the working world. This inevitably breeds a sense of entitlement amongst those who already have, and resentment amongst those who have not and will never have, in the rest of society.

If people were sharp enough they might be more willing to use the union wages as something to climb to and not the other way around. Too many feel that the union presence will block their chances to get ahead, as unions really aren't about individualism and going way above and beyond. And that is not always a bad thing. The image of the union as being a hindrance and something that protects bad workers has been in the forefront of public opinion long enough that there may never be another opportunity to rally workers in forming groups that look after their interests.

Unfortunately the reality will be that while there may be a push for more equivalency in the future, wage and benefit-wise, such a push will almost certainly result in the union wage coming down, not everyone else's going up. In other words the poor schmuck driving the school bus and doing an evening shift at Best Buy is still going to barely get by.

But the idea that there may come a time when everyone will be paid what they are really worth is likely only fantasy. I do think however that there will be movement in that direction. Another 10-20 years should be revealing. Push has started to come to shove in a lot of areas. Privatization may miss the TTC, but will likely start to show up in other city services...maybe libraries, parks and rec, etc.

[smallspy]

Not my point though.

But yes, you can walk, drive, fly, take a cab. That's like stopping eating hamburgers and switching to pizza, yogurt or apples.

You missed the point Dan.

Almost three-quarters of the people who take the TTC on any given day have access to a car - that is, they can drive or be driven. That captive market that people go on about is only about 300,000 rides per day.

A lot of people are pissed off enough about the TTC to start driving, and I'm sure that this whole kerfuffle of late is only going to turn more people away.

Dan

[pccstreetcar4549]

You missed the point Dan.

Almost three-quarters of the people who take the TTC on any given day have access to a car - that is, they can drive or be driven. That captive market that people go on about is only about 300,000 rides per day.

A lot of people are pissed off enough about the TTC to start driving, and I'm sure that this whole kerfuffle of late is only going to turn more people away.

Dan

which is bad since more people are on the road causing gridlock and getting more people pissed why the bus or streetcar is slow or late etc and causes a vicious cycle though. i have my own car, i have the abilty to drive downtown but i dont, i dont like the hassles of having to park downtown, having to pay whatever the lot wants to charge to park there etc so i dont complain about paying 6 buck for a roundtrip its worth it for my sanity i can relax wherever i am going . my parents on the other hand, whenever my family goes to some event they like to drive there i suppose it is cheaper and easier as a group to drive down

[wil9402]

On my way home today I got on a bus and showed my metropass and went to take a seat at the front. The driver has been doing this run for this whole board period and I know how outgoing and helpful he is with his passengers. He ended up calling me back up and he explained to me that since I was a student I should expect operators nowadays to ask me to see my Student card because of the whole situation in the media. He said all the drivers were told to do exactly what they are suppose to do or they will get suspended for 3 days. For example, he said he's not allowed to let anyone on if they are short change. We ended up having a nice conversation about the whole issue plus some other things, some transit related some not. Great driver, hopefully he got the same crew for next board period.

[D40-90]

On my way home today I got on a bus and showed my metropass and went to take a seat at the front. The driver has been doing this run for this whole board period and I know how outgoing and helpful he is with his passengers. He ended up calling be back up and he explained to me that since I was a student I should expect operators nowadays to ask me to see my Student card because of the whole situation in the media. He said all the drivers were told to do exactly what they are suppose to do or they will get suspended for 3 days. For example, he said he's not allowed to let anyone on if they are short changed. We ended up having a nice conversation about the whole issue plus some other things, some transit related some not. Great driver, hopefully he got the same crew for next board period.

Everyone should have a student I.D weather they enforce it or not. He shouldn't have to give a warnning. The bad part about this is, since they wern't consistant in enfocring it, they will have to deal with angry students. Even though they have no right to be angry.

[Diana32]

Everyone should have a student I.D weather they enforce it or not. He shouldn't have to give a warnning. The bad part about this is, since they wern't consistant in enfocring it, they will have to deal with angry students. Even though they have no right to be angry.

See the things is tho, the students are stupid to get mad and cause garbage because yea ttc reminds students everyday and every minute to have there ids on them but yet they don't listen and when they are questioned or asked to show their ids they don't and again act stupid ... my question is why the hell does the drivers have to deal with all this crap from people who don't listen and exactly they DO NOT have the right to be angry... i'm so pissed at whats going on with them... its just so frustrating.

[TDE]

...He ended up calling me back up and he explained to me that since I was a student I should expect operators nowadays to ask me to see my Student card because of the whole situation in the media. He said all the drivers were told to do exactly what they are suppose to do or they will get suspended for 3 days. For example, he said he's not allowed to let anyone on if they are short change...

Everyone should have a student I.D weather they enforce it or not. He shouldn't have to give a warnning. The bad part about this is, since they wern't consistant in enfocring it, they will have to deal with angry students. Even though they have no right to be angry.

See the things is tho, the students are stupid to get mad and cause garbage because yea ttc reminds students everyday and every minute to have there ids on them but yet they don't listen and when they are questioned or asked to show their ids they don't and again act stupid ... my question is why the hell does the drivers have to deal with all this crap from people who don't listen and exactly they DO NOT have the right to be angry... i'm so pissed at whats going on with them... its just so frustrating.

And to add. I was on the 17 today, and two students failed to present ID and said that the TTC never showed up to their school (to take photos for student discount ID cards)... Jesus Christ, it's February.

What an excuse, that's weak

[pccstreetcar4549]

that is lame, i went to a school that wasnt big enough to get TTC to come to do the photos so i had to go it myself at the ID office every year before oct 31 at sherbourne stn and i showed my id every time, even though i could tell the drivers mostly didnt care,

[York Transit]

Reminds me of a time at our highschool when NO ONE had their School ID's (also act as a YRT Student ID) yet as the cards hadn't been processed and printed by the school.

Driver made everyone pay adult fare.

[YRT-Guy]

Reminds me of a time at our highschool when NO ONE had their School ID's (also act as a YRT Student ID) yet as the cards hadn't been processed and printed by the school.

Driver made everyone pay adult fare.

not to be a stickler in the situation, but technically, no student ID, no student fare!

[CLRV4037]

If people were sharp enough they might be more willing to use the union wages as something to climb to and not the other way around. Too many feel that the union presence will block their chances to get ahead, as unions really aren't about individualism and going way above and beyond. And that is not always a bad thing. The image of the union as being a hindrance and something that protects bad workers has been in the forefront of public opinion long enough that there may never be another opportunity to rally workers in forming groups that look after their interests.

Unfortunately the reality will be that while there may be a push for more equivalency in the future, wage and benefit-wise, such a push will almost certainly result in the union wage coming down, not everyone else's going up. In other words the poor schmuck driving the school bus and doing an evening shift at Best Buy is still going to barely get by.

But the idea that there may come a time when everyone will be paid what they are really worth is likely only fantasy. I do think however that there will be movement in that direction. Another 10-20 years should be revealing. Push has started to come to shove in a lot of areas. Privatization may miss the TTC, but will likely start to show up in other city services...maybe libraries, parks and rec, etc.

Sure, drop wages and watch the transit system deteriorate even further, its a slippery slope. Do you think you will find the calibre of people needed to be operators when the wage is $10-$15/hr? Absolutely not. Why is it that - in the eyes of the ignorant that operators are "paid too much" - there isn't a line up out the door of the TTC Employment office 3 miles long of people trying to get in on all the loot? Drive a bus, get paid $28/hr! Easy as pie! WRONG! Operating a transit bus is one of the most stressful jobs out there. Operators are in a constant state of dealing with traffic, people, schedule, and having responsibility for the equipment and the lives of people on board. Sure there are a few bad apples, but there are almost 6 000 operators, and the TTC weeds out thousands of lame duck applicants every year. For many you couldn't pay them enough to be an operator and that is why there isn't the big frenzy of people trying to become one.

When the wages drop, turnover increases, training costs increase, and safety goes down. For example, at one time, SEPTA (Philadelphia) operator starting wage was around $13/hr, and the progression to full wage took 5 years. Operator turn over was extremely high, as they weren't paid enough to actually really care and feel that their job was worth it. This breeds incompetence, and lots of crashes. Why would a $13/hr transit operator continue to put up with all this stress, when he could make the same wage working at Best Buy or driving a school bus, and have much less responsibility? School bus drivers do not have to generally abide by a strict schedule with timing points along the entire route, collect fares, or provide a public transit style type service.

Like I said earlier, there will be bad apples no matter how much you pay them, its a fact of life in every type of employment, and I agree 100% that these individuals should be dealt with. However, we are products of the environment we work in. Try driving a bus for 8 - 10 hours per day with no breaks, and having people yelling and screaming because the bus is late caused by tight schedules set by management. Having people yelling and screaming because you stepped off the bus for 2 minutes to quickly grab a coffee, so you can stay alert and perform your duties to the best of your abilities. No matter what the hourly rate is, we are all human, and there is only so much stress we can deal with all at once. Wishing to lower the wages of public transit workers based on how you think you know how to do their jobs, and wishing them to be poor just like other poor people is ridiculous. Perhaps we should say the same thing to Police, Ambulance, or Fire Service unions. "I would put out that fire, but I only make $13/hr so its not really worth my time, or the danger involved....

Even with all of the evils, I still like my job.

[Diana32]

And to add. I was on the 17 today, and two students failed to present ID and said that the TTC never showed up to their school (to take photos for student discount ID cards)... Jesus Christ, it's February.

What an excuse, that's weak

lmao my gosh yea very weak

[The Crazy Hybrid]

A bit of a story witch i do not mind 1 bit

a BT driver made a stop at the Halton Police station cause he really had to pee i was fine with that

At another time he ran into tims for a pee

another time he ran into tims and had a coffee ready for him (If it keeps him awake and happy) LET HIM DO IT

[Downsview 108]

another time he ran into tims and had a coffee ready for him (If it keeps him awake and happy) LET HIM DO IT

If the bus is early, I think the driver has every right to make a stop, unless there's a way to prove it isn't.

[shambala]

A bit of a story witch i do not mind 1 bit

a BT driver made a stop at the Halton Police station cause he really had to pee i was fine with that

At another time he ran into tims for a pee

another time he ran into tims and had a coffee ready for him (If it keeps him awake and happy) LET HIM DO IT

I don't think it was so much an issue with the pee break per se in the TTC case, as it was the belligerant tone the driver used when he got back on the bus dealing with the passengers and perhaps not informing them in the first place that probably got him suspended.

[rob9701]

Sure, drop wages and watch the transit system deteriorate even further, its a slippery slope. Do you think you will find the calibre of people needed to be operators when the wage is $10-$15/hr? Absolutely not. Why is it that - in the eyes of the ignorant that operators are "paid too much" - there isn't a line up out the door of the TTC Employment office 3 miles long of people trying to get in on all the loot? Drive a bus, get paid $28/hr! Easy as pie! WRONG! Operating a transit bus is one of the most stressful jobs out there. Operators are in a constant state of dealing with traffic, people, schedule, and having responsibility for the equipment and the lives of people on board. Sure there are a few bad apples, but there are almost 6 000 operators, and the TTC weeds out thousands of lame duck applicants every year. For many you couldn't pay them enough to be an operator and that is why there isn't the big frenzy of people trying to become one.

When the wages drop, turnover increases, training costs increase, and safety goes down. For example, at one time, SEPTA (Philadelphia) operator starting wage was around $13/hr, and the progression to full wage took 5 years. Operator turn over was extremely high, as they weren't paid enough to actually really care and feel that their job was worth it. This breeds incompetence, and lots of crashes. Why would a $13/hr transit operator continue to put up with all this stress, when he could make the same wage working at Best Buy or driving a school bus, and have much less responsibility? School bus drivers do not have to generally abide by a strict schedule with timing points along the entire route, collect fares, or provide a public transit style type service.

Like I said earlier, there will be bad apples no matter how much you pay them, its a fact of life in every type of employment, and I agree 100% that these individuals should be dealt with. However, we are products of the environment we work in. Try driving a bus for 8 - 10 hours per day with no breaks, and having people yelling and screaming because the bus is late caused by tight schedules set by management. Having people yelling and screaming because you stepped off the bus for 2 minutes to quickly grab a coffee, so you can stay alert and perform your duties to the best of your abilities. No matter what the hourly rate is, we are all human, and there is only so much stress we can deal with all at once. Wishing to lower the wages of public transit workers based on how you think you know how to do their jobs, and wishing them to be poor just like other poor people is ridiculous. Perhaps we should say the same thing to Police, Ambulance, or Fire Service unions. "I would put out that fire, but I only make $13/hr so its not really worth my time, or the danger involved....

Even with all of the evils, I still like my job.

I didn't think that my post had the anti-TTC driver, anti-union sentiment in it that you got out of it.

I guess my point is that there's a lot of jobs out there that require a lot of skill and unfortunately a ton of education that are paying, in some cases, substantially less than the operator who drove them to work. An analytical chemist with a BSc. or Masters in the private sector signing on the dotted line to release prescription drugs for sale wouldn't make $28/hr in 90% of cases. Not to irritate you anymore, but something is out of whack between the private and public sector. And that, I argue, is what is fueling this recent situation.

I don't blame you for being defensive or angry. But do you think that you'd be getting $28/hr were it not for the ATU? I don't begrudge you getting what you can get, it's only human nature to look out for yourself. Everyone should be more vocal and willing to organize. There's far too many people out there who are so anti-union that they fail to see the benefits.

[63 Ossington]

I have no issue with drivers doing whatever is needed, just keep it reasonably timed, especially if running late. Also it would go through better wit the general public if they would announce their intentions over the PA, and assure the passengers that he/she'll be back promptly. And if the bus is early, announce that as well, as it'll go better with the passengers.

[6254]

I am thinking of it this way:

That industry is more mature, there are competition and their pay is based on the fair market value. In other words, that is the price that they are worth, when the pay is lower, the public is willing to offer more because there is demand, when the pay is higher, the public can't afford it. The market price is the equilibrium and everyone in the society is willing to pay and it earns everyone respect.

When an industry is not based on market-driven mechanism, like a monopoly, for example, no competition, inefficiency or dead-weight loss occurs. As inequality exists, trouble could happen.

I guess my point is that there's a lot of jobs out there that require a lot of skill and unfortunately a ton of education that are paying, in some cases, substantially less than the operator who drove them to work. An analytical chemist with a BSc. or Masters in the private sector signing on the dotted line to release prescription drugs for sale wouldn't make $28/hr in 90% of cases. Not to irritate you anymore, but something is out of whack between the private and public sector. And that, I argue, is what is fueling this recent situation.

[smallspy]

I am thinking of it this way:

That industry is more mature, there are competition and their pay is based on the fair market value. In other words, that is the price that they are worth, when the pay is lower, the public is willing to offer more because there is demand, when the pay is higher, the public can't afford it. The market price is the equilibrium and everyone in the society is willing to pay and it earns everyone respect.

When an industry is not based on market-driven mechanism, like a monopoly, for example, no competition, inefficiency or dead-weight loss occurs. As inequality exists, trouble could happen.

That would be the case in a one-market closed system.

The real world, however, very rarely works as a one-market closed system. There are other factors at play here, such as the amount of people in the available work force, and intangibles such as whether those people are the right fit for the work force. The TTC for several years now has been screening applicants in an effort to improve the customer service-side of things - you can teach a person (within reason) how to drive with ease, but you it is a lot harder to teach them how to handle people.

As I've pointed out many times before - the TTC has all sorts of problems now, with the wages as high as they are, hiring new staff. How would lowering the wages help this at all?

Dan