Metrolinx Transit Purchasing Initiative

[Mishap]

18 hours ago, Articulated said:

Kings Transit Authority in Nova Scotia has ordered two ElDorado buses for delivery next month.

While the tender has Metrolinx's name on it, they are only coordinating it on behalf of the agencies involved, and are not themselves directly involved with selecting the winning manufacturer. Regardless, each bid would have to be evaluated on its own merits, not because of an organizational bias towards a particular manufacturer. Remember that after multiple years of the Ontario consortium awarding tenders to New Flyer (and a majority of systems having close to full New Flyer fleets), they went with Nova for the most recent order.

And judging the "merits" of the recent Nova purchases, I'd have to say New Flyer would be back in the running for 40-foot purchases. Passengers may not notice all the flaws, but they do notice things like bad A/C. When even the passengers go, "oh no, not a Nova," in the summer, that might make buyers think twice.

[smallspy]

1 hour ago, Mishap said:

When even the passengers go, "oh no, not a Nova," in the summer, that might make buyers think twice.

I think that you're conflating the general public with the foamers. (And I use that term to describe most people who are active on forums like this and others who can identify different bus models on sight, even if they don't know the actual model.) Most of the general public will just shrug their shoulders and get on without much of a gripe.

 

Dan

[Mishap]

On 1/5/2018 at 3:50 PM, smallspy said:

I think that you're conflating the general public with the foamers. (And I use that term to describe most people who are active on forums like this and others who can identify different bus models on sight, even if they don't know the actual model.) Most of the general public will just shrug their shoulders and get on without much of a gripe.

 

Dan

No, that was a friend of mine, just a regular passenger who would normally sit at the back of the bus. He never cared about what type of bus he got on before the Novas hit Hamilton. Now he knows those buses because:

- it's way too hot at the back (so true)

- they rattle too much (true again)

- the seat layout is stupid (actually, I disagree with him on that one)

The foamers/ fanners seem to overlook the shortcomings.

[Hamilton]

Hamilton to study opting out of Metrolinx's transit procurement program

Sep 09, 2019 by Kevin Werner  Stoney Creek News

Stoney Creek Coun. Brad Clark says that Hamilton may have to put the brakes on the city participating in Metrolinx’s purchasing program for buses and other transit vehicles.

Clark, who last month asked city staff to review Hamilton’s involvement in Metrolinx’s Transit Procurement Initiative, said the city may be seeing an unexpected rise in the price tag to buy buses rather than saving money for its residents.

“We experienced a 30 per cent increase in the cost of buses purchased through the (procurement program) through Metrolinx when that program is supposed to be saving us money,” said Clark. “You can’t end up pushing us into something that ends up costing our taxpayers.”

Clark said a few of the buses that Hamilton did purchase had faulty air conditioning systems.

Nitish Bissonauth, Metrolinx spokesperson, disputes the councillor’s statement, saying that HSR has a “unique bus fleet operation” and is the only transit agency in Ontario that has recently purchased compressed natural gas buses.

“CNG buses are in limited supply with only two bus suppliers in the market,” he stated. “HSR did not pay more for their purchase. The decision to purchase these buses was made years ago by Hamilton city council.”

In 2014 and 2017, Hamilton purchased 12-metre compressed natural gas buses.

Bissonauth said the air conditioning issue in some of the buses “has been resolved” by retrofitting “by the original equipment manager of the buses.”

Hamilton has been involved in Metrolinx’s procurement program since 2008, when it joined with eight other municipalities to buy 12-metre diesel low-floor vehicles.

Two years later Hamilton purchased additional 12-metre diesel low-floor buses along with Barrier, Durham, London, North Bay, St. Catharines and Welland transit agencies.

Hamilton also bought an eight-metre diesel specialized low-floor vehicle in 2012, and then in 2014 Hamilton purchased 12-metre compressed natural gas low-floor buses. In 2016, Hamilton bought minibuses and the following year it purchased 12-metre compressed natural gas low-floor vehicles.

The procurement program was created by Metrolinx in 2006 that involved a consortium of six agencies — Barrie, York Region, Durham Region, Burlington, London and Transit Windsor, which later dropped out of the program — to purchase 12-metre low-floor vehicles. They were delivered in 2007 and 2008.

The program, stated Metrolinx on its website, “has been one of North America’s most innovative transit procurement programs.”

“Metrolinx is able to negotiate reduced prices by purchasing in bulk and those savings are passed on to municipalities that voluntarily choose to use the program,” said Bissonauth.
Over the last 13 years, the program has worked with 49 provincial transit agencies — saving taxpayers about $25.9 million in purchasing and administration costs since March 31, 2018 to buy 1,769 buses, said Bissonauth.

Hamilton, though, has not made a bus purchase under the current 2017 to 2020 contract, he said.

He pointed out that in Metrolinx’s 2018-2019 annual report to be published in September, transit agency satisfaction with the procurement program is 93.2 per cent.

Under the city’s 10-year transit strategy, which was initiated in 2015, the city purchased 25 new buses at a cost of $15.6 million. In the 2019 budget that was approved by councillors earlier this spring, 30 new buses were projected to be bought.

By the end of 2018, HSR had 263 buses, with the projection to increase the fleet to 347 to service the city’s BLAST network.

The goal of the strategy is to spend $30 million for 45 buses, which the city has identified funding areas for the purchase. There is also a plan to buy another 81 buses for $56 million, but there is no money identified for the purchase, according to the plan.

City transit staff will be reviewing Clark’s request, which was approved by council, with a report expected sometime in the fall to review the benefits and “deficiencies” of participating in Metrolinx’s program.

https://www.hamiltonnews.com/news-story/9587623-hamilton-to-study-opting-out-of-metrolinx-s-transit-procurement-program/

[lip]

About time the HSR started using some common sense. Opting out of Metrolinx' procurement program is something they should have done years ago, hopefully they actually have the cajones to do it.

[Wonka]

The last order of artics was already purchased out of consortium so I guess they're kinda edging towards it anyway.

[MaT]

Would buying CNG buses make it that much more expensive? Im pretty sure it used to be before, i dont know how much that has changed.  Say if they were getting diesel instead of CNG, would the price then be worth it for them?

[Chris W]

21 hours ago, Wonka said:

The last order of artics was already purchased out of consortium so I guess they're kinda edging towards it anyway.

They were sole sourced because NovaBus does not make a CNG version of the LFS Artic. 

[GTAmissions1]

2 hours ago, 110B West Pickering said:

Discussion regarding the Transit Procurement  Initiative by Metrolinx.

Hello all, I hadn’t seen a thread previously that directly discusses the TPI,

I wanted to come on and share that Nova Bus has once again won the TPI again for their 40ft and 60ft, diesel, CNG and hybrid electrics.

https://www.metrolinx.merx.com/public/solicitations/1540564553/abstract?origin=0

Interesting that Nova has won again especially since I know London Transit Commission and York Region Transit dropped out. London being entirely New Flyer along with how York Region prefers having New Flyer for their conventional fleet. 

At the same time, TTC and OC Transpo are in the TPI considering they are big customers with pretty large orders for regular and articulated buses. 

Noting that they also integrated special technologies such as AVL and on-board cameras. A pretty good package having bulk buying power and keeping the supplier (Nova) in business. Volume discount especially when it is a challenge for the smaller agencies that only buy a few units versus bigger agencies that can afford buying a few hundred in the span of a few years. 

[Flalex72]

3 hours ago, 110B West Pickering said:

Discussion regarding the Transit Procurement  Initiative by Metrolinx.

Hello all, I hadn’t seen a thread previously that directly discusses the TPI,

I wanted to come on and share that Nova Bus has once again won the TPI again for their 40ft and 60ft, diesel, CNG and hybrid electrics.

https://www.metrolinx.merx.com/public/solicitations/1540564553/abstract?origin=0

New thread merged with existing in Ontario Forum.

[Vekoma]

I can't find a list of agencies participating in the TPI. Did HSR end up pulling out, or are they part of this tender?

[lip]

^Very good question i'm curious to know this as well because they really need to pull out from the initiative.

[GTAmissions1]

The Metrolinx Transit Procurement Initiative or TPI for short has crossed a milestone delivering 2,000 buses. St. Catherines with 2104 it looks like. 

https://blog.metrolinx.com/2021/06/08/2000th-vehicle-rolls-out-for-transit-procurement-initiative-helping-communities-across-ontario/?fbclid=IwAR3E5T6AjMsC_-Ba937tRTSU-Bq2Xcat8pDhEsmMkaFv62DO61wbNYobR38

Especially since I know off-hand OC Transpo and TTC are also two of the local participating agencies taking advantage of the bulk order discount. Off-hand the TPI was built for the smaller agencies who can only afford to purchase a few units which wouldn't net them the volume discount. Very few agencies such could afford to purchase a large volume or procure a contract for a certain amount delivered over a certain period of time. 

The 1,000th bus was delivered in 2016 and the TPI has existed since 2006. A lot of buses delivered in 15 years, 1,000 of them in the last 5 alone. 

[GTAmissions1]

Metrolinx Transit Procurement Initiative or TPI for short is looking to purchase 40 regular battery electric buses for 10 transit agencies by 2025.

https://www.masstransitmag.com/bus/vehicles/hybrid-hydrogen-electric-vehicles/press-release/53075884/metrolinx-working-with-10-transit-agencies-to-purchase-battery-electric-buses

Final comments:

An electric bus isn't cheap which is around $1.3 million dollars per unit or around twice the cost of a regular diesel bus. This is before the charging infrastructure the transit agency has to implement before accepting a unit. Many smaller transit agencies can't afford that kind of investment plus building additional infrastructure to support battery electric buses. Most doing a trial before investing in more units to ensure workability. 

[Articulated]

7 hours ago, GTAmissions1 said:

Metrolinx Transit Procurement Initiative or TPI for short is looking to purchase 40 regular battery electric buses for 10 transit agencies by 2025.

https://www.masstransitmag.com/bus/vehicles/hybrid-hydrogen-electric-vehicles/press-release/53075884/metrolinx-working-with-10-transit-agencies-to-purchase-battery-electric-buses

Final comments:

An electric bus isn't cheap which is around $1.3 million dollars per unit or around twice the cost of a regular diesel bus. This is before the charging infrastructure the transit agency has to implement before accepting a unit. Many smaller transit agencies can afford that kind of investment plus building additional infrastructure to support battery electric buses. Most doing a trial before investing in more units to ensure workability. 

From the article, Barrie, Belleville, Brantford, Kingston, Leamington, Milton, Sault Ste Marie, Stratford, Sudbury, Thunder Bay are the agencies involved. Which is highly interesting, 5 of the 10 are currently all-Nova fleets, while 3 more are "Nova-majority" that have only been getting Novas for the past ~10 years.

The inclusion of Leamington is also interesting, as they don't even have a fixed-route system any longer, and they just received two Enviro200 buses recently, so they don't have a strong need for any new 40' buses.

[MaT]

Leamington is the project head if you will for the route 42 between leamington and windsor(LTW). I wonder if that has anything to do with it.  Leamington got the funding for the service (route 42) and contracted it out to Transit Windsor. 

[G.A]

11 hours ago, MaT said:

Leamington is the project head if you will for the route 42 between leamington and windsor(LTW). I wonder if that has anything to do with it.  Leamington got the funding for the service (route 42) and contracted it out to Transit Windsor. 

I wonder if they are looking at acquiring their own vehicles to run the service and contract it to Windsor still or a partnership to split the cost to acquire buses for the service.

[MaT]

Ya that is a possibility. 

[MaT]

Found this is a leamington transit report. 

 

"With two new buses expected to be running the majority of the time, Administration intends

to keep the one active GMC cutaway bus available for firm capacity in case it is required in

the short term (for: mechanical breakdown of new bus, maintenance, event shuttle service,

etc). Administration is preparing an application to the Federal Rural Transit Solutions Fund,

to fund 80% of the cost of a third bus. If successful, the remaining 20% can be funded from

Ontario Transit Gas Tax, as funding can be stacked for this purpose."

[BusDriver91]

The Metrolinx Purchasing Initiative for 12 meter (40 ft) buses ended today at 3PM. I can’t see to find any information on who won the bid. Would anyone happen to know?

[Articulated]

27 minutes ago, BusDriver91 said:

The Metrolinx Purchasing Initiative for 12 meter (40 ft) buses ended today at 3PM. I can’t see to find any information on who won the bid. Would anyone happen to know?

If submissions for the tender closed today, the results will likely not be known for a couple of months. Staff need time to review and evaluate the proposals, then contracts need to be signed with the successful bidder before the results can be publicly disclosed.

[BusDriver91]

1 hour ago, Articulated said:

If submissions for the tender closed today, the results will likely not be known for a couple of months. Staff need time to review and evaluate the proposals, then contracts need to be signed with the successful bidder before the results can be publicly disclosed.

Okay thank you! I wasn’t too sure how bids & tenders work. 

[FlyerD901]

4 hours ago, BusDriver91 said:

The Metrolinx Purchasing Initiative for 12 meter (40 ft) buses ended today at 3PM. I can’t see to find any information on who won the bid. Would anyone happen to know?

This for diesel buses as well or just electric buses?

[BusDriver91]

4 hours ago, FlyerD901 said:

This for diesel buses as well or just electric buses?

Diesel & Natural Gas. The electric bus order was seperate. (New flyer won)

[FlyerD901]

I'm surprised they haven't gone for hybrids. Considering that's the big thing these days. And try to get other levels of government to fund the difference in pricing.