TTC Fare Hikes and Cuts

[Shaun]

They dont have enough busses to suppliment the sheppard subway. Since 11A and 139 run from Yonge st. anymore.

[shambala]

Goodbye new subway and streetcar plans!

Pretty much goodbye to anything new. Had to be the shortest transit 'rennaisance' in history. What if they shut down a stubway and no-one noticed? But don't worry folks, ...we'll still have the bike racks. Except, now more people will use their bikes than the bus.

[wil9402]

Why don't the councilors reduce their salaries to the amount they were being paid before they got that raise they voted for last year?

[Orion VIII]

They are saying that 100 new buses will be mothballed, but in truth, they will just retire 100 extra fishbowls if this at all happens.

[crantila]

Why don't the councilors reduce their salaries to the amount they were being paid before they got that raise they voted for last year?

You're right! This would solve all of the city's financial problems.

Okay here's why: the City of Toronto needs approximately $400 million, and cutting councilors' salaries will make hardly any difference. Of course, they should still probably do it, but everybody knows that it's not about to happen.

--

And once more, the City must not cut funding to Parks & Recreation because it has a very direct impact on citizens' health and well-being. Things like parks, trees, and free (or inexpensive) recreational programs make a big effect on peoples' happiness. Funding for things like cultural festivals should be cut, because they influence far fewer people, and particularly because corporate sponsors are more likely to pony up to these than to funding of public parks.

Of course, it's been said that the TTC and police must take most of the fall in order to make a large enough difference to matter. It would be interesting to see what the Toronto Police would have to do in order to make a drastic budget cut - then people will be screaming blue murder (literally too).

[Buurin]

Why don't the councilors reduce their salaries to the amount they were being paid before they got that raise they voted for last year?

One councillor raised that and was ruled out of order. When will they ever learn?

I ride 98 Willowdale almost every day (if I don't miss it) and at rush hour there're people left standing. Anyway at hourly headway there isn't any more room for cuts except eliminating service after 8pm maybe. There is a school on the Senlac side so no slack to cut there either.

Time to get my bicycle ready!

EDIT: How about try doing some little things, like have the buses turn off the engines while sitting idle, and when the weather is not that extreme?

[MT0603]

I just watched a bit of the emergency meeting on CP24.

I must say, it almost looked like Giambrone was panicking, he was stuttering and it looked like he was sweating too.

I didn't see much however Giambrone said all further service changes including the delivery of 100 new expansion buses in September will be postponed until the financial status improves.

[smallspy]

My understanding is that over 50% of the city's budget is beyond their direct control, being dictated by the province (e.g. downloaded items). These items have been increasing at greater than the rate of the city's property taxes, partially due to Lastman's "no tax increase" promise for his first term, but beyond that, the general tendency of both to insist on a cost of inflation increase only. In 905, costs are increasing at greater than inflation, and yet in Toronto, the budget hasn't reflected that.

You're absolutely right. However, if you are fired from your job and you still have to eat, clothe yourself and keep that roof overhead, you won't go out and buy that new home theatre system, will you?

It's all about keeping your costs in order. I haven't seen much proof of that being the case, and the current council has known for some time that this (the budget deficit, not the shooting down of additional taxation) was coming.

In past years, the city has dealt with this problem partially by provincial bailouts, but McGuinty has made it clear that those are a thing of the past now that the City has the right to levy its own taxes (e.g. exactly the measures it refused to take this week). Whether this is right or not is very much a debateable question. But the other way the City has been dealing with things is by creative accounting - e.g. selling street infrastructure to Toronto Hydro, dipping into the reserve fund, etc. Those moves made the situation look manageable in past years, but obviously they weren't going to work forever. It's time to pay the piper.

Given the inflexibilty of the City's budget, we have three choices:

1) Massive cuts in the discretionary areas, which more than anything means gutting of the police and transit services. Nothing else will raise the kinds of dollars that are necessary

2) A provincial move to upload costs. I think this is unlikely, but if it becomes an election issue, there is a chance. Problem is, the parties are scared that it will cost them seats outside of the city.

3) Municipal tax increases

In the end, I suspect that we'll be back to item #3 in the fall.

For this City to make it to level ground (before even thinking about the "home theatre" again), option 2 has to be taken. But at the same time, I think that council had to get their books in order before we can talk with any certainty about improving this City in a meaningful manner.

Dan

[wil9402]

TTC Looking At Massive Cuts, Fare Hikes To Save Money

Friday July 20, 2007

CityNews.ca Staff

The Sheppard subway line could soon be little more than a memory if the TTC is forced to shut it down as a cost-saving measure. City departments are being told to cut costs by $100 million in the wake of a council decision to defer two taxation plans - a land transfer levy and a vehicle registration tax - until October. And the transit system isn't exempt - it's being told to cut its 2007 costs by $30 million.

The TTC is holding an emergency meeting Friday to try to come up with ways of saving that cash. Chair Adam Giambrone warned that the cuts would affect every part of the system - the country's biggest - and could potentially drive away thousands of riders. A likely candidate for elimination is the six kilometre Sheppard line, even though it only opened six years ago. The closure would save the city $10 million next year. The line carries about 12 million riders a year - a small amount compared to the other major subway routes - and is considered underused.

"It is very serious," Mayor David Miller said. "It took years to rebuild the service after the last round of cuts ten years ago but because of the deferral earlier in the week, the TTC has to look at everything."

Some councillors feel the announced cuts are an attempt to hold city hall responsible for the deficit after Miller's tax increase proposal was deferred. Denzil Minnan-Wong, representative of ward 34, says the announced cuts are disorganized and show a deeper problem with municipal government.

"It seems that the mayor is making up these budget cuts on the back of a napkin," says the city councillor. "It shows a level of management incompetence on behalf of the mayor."

However, TTC chair Adam Giambrone says these aren't trumped-up numbers and the problem is very real.

"The fact is that this budget crunch is real, it's not constructed," says Giambrone. "I can't print money, I can't ask people to work for free and I can't run a deficit."

Riders who rely on the Sheppard Line weren't happy.

"I realize the mayor is under pressure," conceded T.R. Islam. "We can't spend more than we bring in."

Larry Tran added, "I'm all for public transport but they have to get their act straight. Obviously they don't."

"I don't have any problem paying for it," noted Andrew Siqueira. "My main concern is shutting down the Sheppard line. It will take longer to get to work, probably 15, 20 minutes longer."

The other possible changes could include the elimination of 20 bus routes, a fare hike of up to 25 cents, and a $5 to $15 bump in the cost of a Metropass.

http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_13027.aspx

A likely candidate for elimination is the six kilometre Sheppard line, even though it only opened six years ago.

I wonder where CityNews gets their info from. The Sheppard line hasn't even been open for 5 years.

[billy416]

i want to publicly apologize for the tone i used in my comments from last night, which have been deleted. although my displeasure with one member's extreme right views remains, the wording i used was out of line.

since politics is relevant in this thread, i simply ask that we try to keep it relevant to the topic and not make generalizations about the supporters of certain political beliefs. i am equally guilty of this and it will never happen again, at least not in public.

[D40-90]

 

 

One very real way to save money for the city is to contract services out since more than likely private companies have lower costs compared to municipal unions. But this is never even mentioned.

Something like this actually happen, like last year. It was in the Sunnybrook beach area, and a few condo owners wanted TTC service by there condos, but TTC told the condo owners to by metropasses. The condo owners didn't buy them. So the condo owners had there own service.It was from Sunnybrook area to/from Union Station. I think they got sued or something by TTC or the city.IIRC. But if there were to be a situation were so many TTC services were cut, I think there should be private companies. But I don't think(I hope) this will happen.

I just watched a bit of the emergency meeting on CP24.I must say, it almost looked like Giambrone was panicking, he was stuttering and it looked like he was sweating too.I didn't see much however Giambrone said all further service changes including the delivery of 100 new expansion buses in September will be postponed until the financial status improves.

If I was in that situation, I would be sweating too. So many pressure on you, and whatnot.

[ttcgeek]

Something like this actually happen, like last year. It was in the Sunnybrook beach area, and a few condo owners wanted TTC service by there condos, but TTC told the condo owners to by metropasses. The condo owners didn't buy them. So the condo owners had there own service.It was from Sunnybrook area to/from Union Station. I think they got sued or something by TTC or the city.IIRC.

But if there were to be a situation were so many TTC services were cut, I think there should be private companies. But I don't think(I hope) this will happen.

Huh... And the next thing you know, theres extreme restrictions... You know what, I'd rather be in a car than have a private company replacing the TTC.

[D40-90]

Huh... And the next thing you know, theres extreme restrictions... You know what, I'd rather be in a car than have a private company replacing the TTC.

I don't mean replacing. But more helping. Like thoughs Contracted taxies for Wheel-trans.or something. NO not replacing.

[Mr. Engineer]

I don't mean replacing. But more helping. Like thoughs Contracted taxies for Wheel-trans.or something. NO not replacing.

Similar to the way YRT is run?? IIRC, YRT is a P3 operation (publicly run, privately owned). This could help TTC a great deal with money. Although, it could turn around to bite them in the rear in the future.

[LF60]

 

And once more, the City must not cut funding to Parks & Recreation because it has a very direct impact on citizens' health and well-being. Things like parks, trees, and free (or inexpensive) recreational programs make a big effect on peoples' happiness. F

I'd rather be alive and unhappy then dead and happy. you need to spend money on your needs before you can spend it on your wants.

Something like this actually happen, like last year. It was in the Sunnybrook beach area, and a few condo owners wanted TTC service by there condos, but TTC told the condo owners to by metropasses. The condo owners didn't buy them. So the condo owners had there own service.It was from Sunnybrook area to/from Union Station. I think they got sued or something by TTC or the city.IIRC. But if there were to be a situation were so many TTC services were cut, I think there should be private companies. But I don't think(I hope) this will happen.If I was in that situation, I would be sweating too. So many pressure on you, and whatnot.

private transit is not allowed. you have to keep in mind the TTC workers. not the TTC passengers.

[CorSter]

Similar to the way YRT is run?? IIRC, YRT is a P3 operation (publicly run, privately owned). This could help TTC a great deal with money. Although, it could turn around to bite them in the rear in the future.

other way around, Publicly Owned, Privately Run..... A true P3 operation has private capital injected, YRT is not a P3, Viva is. The TTC could possibly save some cash by contracting out maintenance, drivers, etc...but the ATU would never let it happen.

YRT owns the buses, maintains the schedules, the contractors deal with equipment maintenance, drivers and union BS..... if a union plays hardball with Can-Ar... YRT can just cancel the Can-Ar contract and move vaughan to, lets say Miller.

The TTC on the other hand, really doesn't have any choice, they need to deal with the Union directly, fix their buses directly, etc.

The first step to fix the TTC is to restructure it from a government agency to a government owned corporation (think VIA Rail Canada, Canada Post, etc), they get cash from Toronto, but the politicians have no say in how it's used.

[crantila]

I'd rather be alive and unhappy then dead and happy. you need to spend money on your needs before you can spend it on your wants.

But would you rather live a long, unhappy life, or a short, happy life? That's irrelevant. What I know is that we aren't about to die without Taste of the Danforth.

--

Here is a question that I've been musing over for a while: Why can private mass transit companies succeed in Hong Kong, for example, but almost never in Canada (specifically the Greater Toronto Area, of course)? Is it due principally to the greater density of Hong Kong, or is there another factor?

[yrt+viva=1system]

addition too the goodbyes, we can say goodbye to the second platform at union stations as well and the smartcard system

[smallspy]

other way around, Publicly Owned, Privately Run..... A true P3 operation has private capital injected, YRT is not a P3, Viva is.

First off, how exactly is VIVA a "true" P3? It was concieved and is owned by YRT, and is run as just another pair of divisions.

The TTC could possibly save some cash by contracting out maintenance, drivers, etc...but the ATU would never let it happen.

This keeps getting suggested again and again and again, and not once has anyone answered the following:

If the TTC can't hire enough people with their current wages, how exactly do you expect them to hire people for what would likely be lower, "contractor" wages?

YRT owns the buses, maintains the schedules, the contractors deal with equipment maintenance, drivers and union BS..... if a union plays hardball with Can-Ar... YRT can just cancel the Can-Ar contract and move vaughan to, lets say Miller.

Of course they could. But then Miller would have to find new drivers and maintenance staff (to start)...and in this day and age, that's going to be tough.

The TTC on the other hand, really doesn't have any choice, they need to deal with the Union directly, fix their buses directly, etc.

You make it sound like its a bad thing. The TTC is running a considerably higher farebox recovery ratio than YRT is, after all.

The first step to fix the TTC is to restructure it from a government agency to a government owned corporation (think VIA Rail Canada, Canada Post, etc), they get cash from Toronto, but the politicians have no say in how it's used.

VIA Rail is a government corporation, not a Crown corporation. VIA still suffers from a lot of government interference, and are not allowed to seek outside financing.

Having the TTC set up as a commission works fine, provided the commission is run the way its supposed to be....with private individuals on the board. Just like many/most of Toronto's other commissions.

Here is a question that I've been musing over for a while: Why can private mass transit companies succeed in Hong Kong, for example, but almost never in Canada (specifically the Greater Toronto Area, of course)? Is it due principally to the greater density of Hong Kong, or is there another factor?

Greater density, different traffic patterns, different mix of zoned development.

Dan

[CorSter]

Greater density, different traffic patterns, different mix of zoned development.

and unions.

As for viva, the legal entity responsible for the system is the "York Rapid Transit Corporation", independent of YRT. They were completely separate from YRT prior to the initial service launch of Viva. For viva, some of the capitol financing for the launch costs were provided by the contractors in exchange for the business. YRT was never a P3, the smaller cities just didn't believe it was economically feasible to run all aspects of the systems themselves so they contracted it out... this continued into the system merger.

[Red Rocket 191]

The first step to fix the TTC is to restructure it from a government agency to a government owned corporation (think VIA Rail Canada, Canada Post, etc), they get cash from Toronto, but the politicians have no say in how it's used.

My goodness, I never though I would say this, but I fully agree with the above statement. My politics are about as far left as CorSter's are right, but a good idea is a good idea, regardless of its politics.

In my opinion, the government should only set minimum service standards, like how frequent service must be and how close it must be people's homes. Other than that, let the planners (who have spent 4+ years getting a specialized degree) run the service. Of course, I have a vested interest in seeing that happen.

[buschic]

other way around, Publicly Owned, Privately Run..... A true P3 operation has private capital injected, YRT is not a P3, Viva is. The TTC could possibly save some cash by contracting out maintenance, drivers, etc...but the ATU would never let it happen.

YRT owns the buses, maintains the schedules, the contractors deal with equipment maintenance, drivers and union BS..... if a union plays hardball with Can-Ar... YRT can just cancel the Can-Ar contract and move vaughan to, lets say Miller.

The TTC on the other hand, really doesn't have any choice, they need to deal with the Union directly, fix their buses directly, etc.

The first step to fix the TTC is to restructure it from a government agency to a government owned corporation (think VIA Rail Canada, Canada Post, etc), they get cash from Toronto, but the politicians have no say in how it's used.

Wow, ok, CORSTER for the first time ever you and I actually AGRRE on Something! wow

Also the TTC needs to get a backbone and DEMAND more FUNDING from the Goverment, It IS a Tourist Attraction in a way, so why not get Tourisim funding???? OC TRANSPO does from the National Capital commission...

[TTCT15119]

my friend drives the #8 broadview and he says that the 56 62 and the 8 are gonna be cut yesterday he said an inspecter was fallowing him to see how many people were on at rush hour so he might go back to subways and they all get a 30 day refresher befour they can do anything

[LF60]

routes like 62 and 26 are vital to people who use wheelchairs to get around, the subway stations they skip on thier routes are not accessible (like dufferin and pape)

[billy416]

a cbc article today reports that any major changes have been put on hold until the fall. however, any improvements that were already planned for the fall did get cut yesterday.