The next Canadian city to have Commuter Rail?

[webfil]

Are there any metropolitan areas in Canada that might be able to apply the European "tram-train" model to commuter service? As I understand it "tram-trains" are services using multiple-unit vehicles (often dual mode) that traverse railway infrastructure on the outer parts of their journeys, and then urban light rail (or tramway) infrastructure to complete their journeys into the city centre. Karlsruhe in Germany is often considered the textbook example. Edmonton comes to mind as a potential Canadian application. I can imagine dual-mode (diesel and electric) LRV's from one or more of the commuter burbs (Leduc, Fort Saskatchewan, Spruce Grove, etc) running on mainline tracks towards Edmonton, and then joining LRT tracks to complete their journey into the central business district.

The biggest hurdle to the concept in North America is probably regulatory. The Europeans have settled for safety by superior signals for lighter passenger vehicles mixing with heavy trains. North American safety is still governed by crash-worthiness, and an LRV heavy enough to survive a head-on with a freight train would be too heavy for a head-on with an urban LRV.

NJ Transit River Line is the sole example of tram-train I can think of.

[dowlingm]

Apparently Austin has street running.

[TheAverageJoe]

Apparently Austin has street running.

Yes the downtown section on 5th street

[ghYHZ]

Commuter Rail in the Halifax Regional Municipality appears to be on the front burner again……at least a presentation of a study commissioned last summer will be presented at the end of February:

http://www.halifax.ca/transit/commuterrail.php

Windsor Jct is mentioned in this study. This route was double track. About 10 years ago, CN single tracked the line and at that time the Municipality was given the opportunity to railbank the second track for future commuter train use…..they declined.

These studies are done every few years but nothing ever happens.

[swimmer_spe]

Well, maybe something finally happens.

Single track is better than no track.

[smallspy]

Well, maybe something finally happens.

Single track is better than no track.

CN isn't going to pull out of Halifax anytime soon. What is left is worth far too much money to them.

Dan

[skyfirenet]

CN isn't going to pull out of Halifax anytime soon. What is left is worth far too much money to them.

Dan

I think he's referring to the Halifax and Southwestern line.

[DavidW]

So the topic of this thread is "who might be next to get commuter rail". Running down all of Canada's official "Census Metropolitan Areas" (in order by 2011 Census population), here is what I have heard or read about. All of the opinions are, of course, my own...

Toronto (5,583,064):
Already has the largest commuter train network in Canada, supplemented by an extensive complementary and wide-ranging regional bus network. Next new rail line to open will be the premium-fare UPX (Toronto - Pearson Airport). Beyond that there are extensive plans for electrification and two-way all-day service on other lines. Newly elected Mayor Tory pledges to quickly implement his SmartTrack proposal. The problem in greater Toronto seems to me to be that there are a lot of players on this political field (Toronto Mayor, Toronto City Council, TTC bureaucracy, TTC commission, Metrolinx, provincial government, FordNation voters, anti-FordNation voters, surrounding municipal governments, etc) and just about the only thing they all have in common is the belief that all the other players are idiots. Teamwork is not their strong suit.

Montreal (3,824,221):
Already has multi-line commuter train network. Just opened new Train de l'Est line (Mascouche - Repentigny - Montreal). Additional commuter bus services are operated on behalf of a large number of intermunicipal transport boards (CITs). Much talk now is around commuter train service to the West Island, le Train de l'Ouest.

Vancouver (2,313,328):
Has one commuter train route now (Vancouver - Mission). There is a public lobby group (www.railforthevalley.com) to implement a commuter train service on the old New Westminster - Abbotsford - Chilliwack BCER interurban line, but they don't seem to have much traction. The line once hosted interurbans from Vancouver via New Westminster all the way to Chilliwack, but that ended in 1950.

Ottawa - Gatineau (1,236,324):
No current commuter train services. OCTranspo works with "rural partners" to coordinate commuter bus service on the Ontario side. There is at least one organization (www.letsgomoose.com) advocating for a bi-provincial commuter rail network (six lines) around Ottawa-Gatineau. Several newspaper articles around 2011 but pretty quiet since then. There were municipal politicians in Smiths Falls also advocating for a commuter rail line from there to Ottawa (on Via-owned tracks) but that seems to have gone quiet lately too. Smiths Falls doesn't even have commuter bus service. Interurban rail service once connected Ottawa with Aylmer via Hull, but that ended in 1947.

Calgary (1,214,839):
Never had commuter train services. The Calgary Regional Partnership (multi-municipality organization) has picked a name "On-It" (www.geton-it.ca) for regional bus transit service but has yet to launch. One municipality (Airdrie) runs its own commuter bus service. Several others (Strathmore, Cochrane, Okotoks, High River) have commercial commuter bus services. Train service seems a long way off. There are advocates for a Calgary - Cochrane - Canmore - Banff commuter/tourism train service but little (if any) serious political backing. Canadian Pacific, whose extremely busy transcontinental freight line would host such a service, was surprisingly supportive. CP was more than willing to have public funds expended to double-track its mainline.

Edmonton (1,159,869):
No current commuter train services. Commuter bus operations are a mix of municipalities doing it themselves (Strathcona, St. Albert and Leduc) and others (Fort Saskatchewan, Spruce Grove, Sturgeon) contracting with Edmonton Transit for it. Edmonton has given up its downtown railway rights-of-way making any future conventional commuter rail a very expensive prospect. There doesn't seem to be anyone advocating commuter rail in the Edmonton area. Edmonton - St. Albert were once, briefly, connected by gasoline-powered interurban trains, but that ended in 1914. You also used to be able to take a passenger train from Strathcona (South Edmonton) to Edmonton, but the leisurely "S"-shaped route was hardly faster that walking, and certainly slower than the competing municipal streetcar. The trains (4/day) ended in 1929.

Quebec (765,706):
No current commuter train services. Transit systems (RTC in Quebec, STL in Levis) have multi-municipality geographic reach, and several suburban bus operators also connect passengers with Quebec (or Levis). I'm not aware of any plans or proposals for commuter trains. Saint-Raymond once had a daily commuter train into Quebec City (ending probably around 1960), and there was once interurban trains between Quebec City and Sainte-Anne-de-Beaupre (ending 1959).

Winnipeg (730,018):
No current commuter train services. Only one commercial commuter bus service (Winnipeg - Selkirk). There has been brief political talk lately of a regional (bus) transit agency (perhaps replacing or expanding Winnipeg Transit) but nothing has come of it. Winnipeg once had three interurban rail lines: Winnipeg - Selkirk, Winnipeg - Stonewall, and Winnipeg - Headingley but those all ended decades ago (1937, 1939 and 1930, respectively). No one is seriously proposing any commuter rail projects.

Hamilton (721,053):
Currently has Toronto oriented commuter train service, and is part of the GO bus network. Commuter rail advocacy concentrates on improving train service from peak hours only to all-day, which is high on Metrolinx and provincial priority lists. Hamilton would also be on any proposed GO Train extension to the Niagara peninsula. Hamilton was once a hub of interurban rail, with lines to Burlington/Oakville, Grimsby/Beamsville, and Brantford. These ended service in 1929 and 1931.

Kitchener - Cambridge - Waterloo (477,160):
Currently has Toronto oriented commuter train service, and is part of the GO bus network. Rail line would be part of Metrolinx plans to electrify trains and increase service to all-day and two-way.

London (474,786):
Via runs a commuter-friendly schedule between London and Toronto (but it would be an expensive weekdaily commute). The Ontario government is talking, apparently seriously, about some sort of high speed rail connecting London with Toronto.

St. Catharines - Niagara (392,184):
The Niagara peninsula has summer-only commuter train service connecting them to Toronto via Hamilton, and year-round GO bus service. There has been significant political talk about how to convince Metrolinx to make the rail service year-round. I don't think Metrolinx is paying them much attention but perhaps they can make a compelling case. The regional freight railway has recently proposed commuter train service on its Port Colborne - Welland - St. Catharines line (google "Niagara Rail Transit Spine"). The region once hosted a significant interurban rail system, last running in 1959.

Halifax (390,328):
No current commuter train service. The municipality has agreed to study the often advocated Halifax - Bedford CN line for potential commuter train service. There is some public and political support, but seemingly little or no bureaucrat/technocrat support, for the idea. Halifax once has weekdaily commuter train service from Waverley or Elmsdale or Truro (depending on the year) but that service was certainly gone by 1960 or so.

Oshawa (356,177):
Currently has Toronto oriented commuter train service, and is part of the GO bus network. Rail line would be part of Metrolinx plans to electrify trains and increase service to all-day and two-way.

Victoria (344,615):
Currently has no commuter train service. There are advocates for a commuter train on the Esquimault and Nanaimo Railway, perhaps between Victoria and Langford. The province studied the idea in 2008 and thought the cost worked against it. The track owner (Island Corridor Foundation) is eager to restore some sort of train service but governments don't seem to be interested. There was once interurban rail service from Victoria up the Saanich peninsula (and competing Great Northern train service) but the interurban line ended in 1924.

Windsor (319,246):
Currently has no commuter train service. I'm not aware of any active plans or proposals. The Ontario government's High Speed Rail initiative might connect Windsor with London and Toronto. Windsor once had interurban rail service to Amherstburg, Tecumseh, and Leamington. Those ended in 1938, 1938 and 1932, respectively.

Saskatoon (260,600):
So far as I know, never had commuter rail service. I'm not aware of any proposals for commuter trains, or even any serious commuter bus ideas. (What about Warman and Martensville?)

Regina (210,556):
Currently doesn't have commuter train service. The Regina - Moose Jaw corridor nearly has commuter bus service (STC's schedule is close), and in the ancient days of passenger train service in Canada (pre-1955 or so) CP's trains in the same corridor were more-or-less commuter friendly. I'm not aware of any current plans or proposals.

Sherbrooke (201,890):
So far as I know, never had commuter train service. I'm not aware of any proposals for commuter trains.

St. John's (196,966):
No current commuter train service. The complete absence of train tracks on the island of Newfoundland means no one is going to suggest any. St. John's once had commuter trains to Kelligrews, but these ended some time in the 1930s.

Barrie (187,013):
Currently has Toronto oriented commuter train service, and is part of the GO bus network. Rail line would be part of Metrolinx plans to electrify trains and increase service to all-day and two-way. Just recently implemented commuter bus service to Essa Township and Base Borden. Innisfil also seems somewhat serious about commuter bus service.

Kelowna (179,839):
So far as I know, never had commuter train service. The municipality recently (2014) bought the CN rail line to Coldstream for future transit use, but the immediate plans are probably for a recreation trail.

Abbotsford - Mission (170,191):
Mission currently has Vancouver-oriented commuter train service. Abbotsford would be on the proposed New Westminster - Chilliwack line (see above under Vancouver). A Surrey - Abbotsford - Chilliwack commuter bus service should launch in 2015.

Greater Sudbury / Grand Sudbury (160,770):
Currently does not have commuter rail service. The municipality covers a vast territory and there is some debate about whether or not to extend transit bus service to far-flung population centres. Nobody is talking trains.

Kingston (159,561):
Currently does not have commuter train service per se. Kingston is situated on Via's main corridor and has frequent train service to Ottawa, Toronto, and Montreal.

Saguenay (157,790):
So far as I know, never had commuter train service. I am unaware of any proposals.

Trois-Rivieres (151,773):
Currently does not have commuter train service. I am unaware of any proposals. It was once possible to commute to Shawinigan from Trois-Rivieres on the St. Maurice Valley Railway (a CP subsidiary) but that information was from a 1907 timetable.

Guelph (141,097):
Currently has Toronto oriented commuter train service, and is part of the GO bus network. Rail line would be part of Metrolinx plans to electrify trains and increase service to all-day and two-way.

Moncton (138,644):
So far as I know, never had commuter train service. I am unaware of any proposals.

Brantford (135,501):
Currently is part of the GO bus network. Local politicians and advocates would like GO train service extended to Brantford, but it doesn't seem to be on Metrolinx's priority list. Brantford once had interurban rail service to Cambridge, Port Dover, and Hamilton. Port Dover and Cambridge ended in 1955. Hamilton ended in 1931.

Saint John (127,761):
So far as I know, never had commuter train services. The local transit service operates (under contract) some commuter bus service to Grand Bay, Westfield, Rothesay, Quispamsis, and Hampton. I am unaware of any rail proposals.

Thunder Bay (121,596):
Currently doesn't have commuter train service. I am unaware of any proposals. There were once a gasoline-powered interurban line from Fort William to Neebing and Paipoonge townships. The history of the line is obscure but the Fort William street railway apparently acquired, electrified, and operated it until 1945.

Peterborough (118,975):
Peterborough lost its Via-operated commuter train to Toronto in 1990, and advocacy to resurrect a service has existed ever since. The most recent organized effort was called the "Shining Waters Railway". Their website recently disappeared. Peterborough is connected to the GO bus network, and appears on some people's plans for GO train expansion.

[Dane]

You're right Kelowna has never had commuter service. Kelowna and its neighbouring municipality have purchased the now abandoned ROW and are going to develop it into paved multi use trail almost immediately from what I gather. Written into the purchase authorization from Kelowna council (not sure about Goldstream) is that the property be used for commuter rail if population ever demands. An interesting idea.

In Victoria the E&N rail line, which for all realistic purposes is abandoned (in the colloquial use of the word) doesn't seem to be going anywhere quickly due to the owner - Island Corridor Foundation - struggling to get anything done for a variety of reasons, unfortunately most of which seems to be disinterest.

The good news, though, is that slowly in the Victoria area this is growing on the municipal governments radar. Being a very ideal corridor through some of the most populated areas the route is a transit dream. A $37 million multi use trail is being built along the Southern portion of the line now. This growing interest isn't enough to get anything done now, due to complex governance of the ROW's owner, cost, and areas of responsibility to provide transit (the municipal governments here don't directly control transit, and have no relationship with ICF / Via) I suspect that in about four years or so, the next election cycle, the E&N could become a big issue.

Until then I am fairly confident that the Island Corridor Foundation while drive the line into literal abandonment, unfortunately.

[skyfirenet]

Peterborough (118,975):

...The most recent organized effort was called the "Shining Waters Railway". Their website recently disappeared.

That's because the biggest political supporter for the proposal recently dropped dead.

[webfil]

Montreal (3,824,221):

Already has multi-line commuter train network. Just opened new Train de l'Est line (Mascouche - Repentigny - Montreal). Additional commuter bus services are operated on behalf of a large number of intermunicipal transport boards (CITs). Much talk now is around commuter train service to the West Island, le Train de l'Ouest.

Train de l'ouest will likely be a LRT linking Fairview Terminus to downtown. The actual advocacy call for a Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu link (http://www.eco-train.org/). MTQ has acquired for the account of the AMT CN Chambly spur in 2013; AMT operates 6 rail lines and no bike paths, if you know what I mean. Plans from the agency also called for some time for a Boisbriand service spuring from Saint-Jérôme line.

VIA offers commuter e-passes from Ottawa (ON), Alexandia (ON), Coteau (QC), Saint-Hyacinthe (QC), Drummondville (QC), Casselman (ON), and Cornwall (ON), although the two latters are unlikely commutes because the first train to enter Montréal from Toronto is around noon. All of the other hereby listed are plausible commutes (arrival 7-9 AM, departure 4-6 PM; standards generally accepted by scholars).

Quebec (765,706):

No current commuter train services. Transit systems (RTC in Quebec, STL in Levis) have multi-municipality geographic reach, and several suburban bus operators also connect passengers with Quebec (or Levis). I'm not aware of any plans or proposals for commuter trains. Saint-Raymond once had a daily commuter train into Quebec City (ending probably around 1960), and there was once interurban trains between Quebec City and Sainte-Anne-de-Beaupre (ending 1959).

An inbound morning passenger train operated by CN is still listed in 1975 CP timetables for Québec sub. Service assuredly ended in 1975, when the CP shut down Gare du Palais station.

Côte-de-Beaupré regional county municipality (actually served by fast-growing PLUMobile intermunicipal bus service; wiki) has prayed several times for return of the interurban tram service, but studies weight against any rail service ― too expansive for any projected ridership.

Le Massif's regional rail transit serving Charlevoix is looking forward to expand to Québec, and Côte-de-Beaupré wants its share of the deal. (Réseau Charlevoix; wiki). I'd be awfully excited if the german-built cutie-pie DMUs were to serve the capital. However, I hardly see how is that possible, as the speed limits west of Montmorency falls are pretty weak and ssss llllllll ooooo wwww, and Gare du Palais station has high platforms only ― although passenger movements just out of the station would not be impossible.

Also, Boulevard François-de-Laval has good transit connections, and that would make it a good candidate for an eventual terminus west of the Falls.

London (474,786):

Via runs a commuter-friendly schedule between London and Toronto (but it would be an expensive weekdaily commute).

VIA offers a commuter e-pass for 525$ monthly, still 50% cheaper than using your car (Camry kilometrage per litre used for comparison).

Sherbrooke (201,890):

So far as I know, never had commuter train service. I'm not aware of any proposals for commuter trains.

CP trains 40/42 (The Atlantic) and CN 621/624 made Sherbrooke-Montréal day-in/day-out plausible until the 90's, although nobody back then (not even nowadays) would live on a 5-hour daily commute.

--------------

VIA also offers commuter e-passes for these zones (bolded are plausible commutes according to schedule) :

• London
  • Guelph
• Ottawa
  • Alexandria
  • Brockville
  • Kingston
• Toronto
  • Aldershot
  • Belleville
  • Brantford
  • Cobourg
  • Georgetown
  • Grimbsy
  • Guelph, Kitchener, Oshawa (but, seriously, who would?)
  • Kingston
  • Port Hope
  • St. Catharines
  • Stratford
  • Trenton Junction
  • Woodstock

[DavidW]

Re: Shining Waters Railway (Peterborough - Toronto)

That's because the biggest political supporter for the proposal recently dropped dead.

The website made a big deal out of their relationship with Dean Del Mastro. Did you mead "dead" as in Del Mastro politically dead, or as in Rest in Peace Jim Flarety dead?

[skyfirenet]

Re: Shining Waters Railway (Peterborough - Toronto)

The website made a big deal out of their relationship with Dean Del Mastro. Did you mead "dead" as in Del Mastro politically dead, or as in Rest in Peace Jim Flarety dead?

Technically both, but mainly Flarety. Del Mastro just won't go away.

[stage driver]

How about London, ON?

They could have a service to Kitchener/Stratford (and connect to a GO Train) or west to Chatham...

Stratford is far enough from London that there is insufficient commuter traffic to London; and Kitchener is well served to the east with Go service. As for Chatham, not much in the way of commuters between there in London, though there are some without doubt. Windsor economy is still down and as far as current trackage only one track remains on the CN line between Windsor and Chatham and Via essentially operates that line and has plans to increase service in southwestern Ontario based on recent announcements.

[dowlingm]

Victoria: can't get E&N rail into downtown since the city and province cheaped out on the replacement Johnson Street bridge for the want of $12m. While it may have been arguable at the time given the state of the rest of the E&N, it won't be 12m to add later, leaving any terminus remote from the city center.

[swimmer_spe]

Victoria: can't get E&N rail into downtown since the city and province cheaped out on the replacement Johnson Street bridge for the want of $12m. While it may have been arguable at the time given the state of the rest of the E&N, it won't be 12m to add later, leaving any terminus remote from the city center.

Less thank a KM is not remote, If it becomes needed, they could build the rail bridge. For that matter, they could build a tunnel and have it run even deeper into the city centre.

[dowlingm]

Less thank a KM is not remote, If it becomes needed, they could build the rail bridge. For that matter, they could build a tunnel and have it run even deeper into the city centre.

Sure they *could* build it later or they could build a tunnel (the former likely requiring significant disruption to current users and the latter for more than an order of magnitude the cost of adding rail to the bridge at initial construction). The issue is that for $12m it still seems penny wise and pound foolish.

[swimmer_spe]

Sure they *could* build it later or they could build a tunnel (the former likely requiring significant disruption to current users and the latter for more than an order of magnitude the cost of adding rail to the bridge at initial construction). The issue is that for $12m it still seems penny wise and pound foolish.

Have you even been there?

The only disruption would be to vehicle traffic, not rail traffic. In fact, the train will stop about 100m from where the bridge is.

[webfil]

I agree that the distance is not that big (1-1.5 km from the CBD seems a reasonable distance for a young, healthy and adventurous boy like me). However, the commuting conditions (including the number of transfer [any rupture de charge ― is there even a word for that in english? break in load continuity?], walking distance to destination, comfort [including pedestrian comfort from the end of motorized or active transportation to final destination]) are important variables in the choice of the mean of transportation. Time or distance themselves are variables to consider among the other listed.

As there is a customership to establish from blank, you cannot just put a train that "far" (mental mapping speaking ― the bridge is seen as an "obstacle") from downtown and expect it to be popular.

[swimmer_spe]

I agree that the distance is not that big (1-1.5 km from the CBD seems a reasonable distance for a young, healthy and adventurous boy like me). However, the commuting conditions (including the number of transfer [any rupture de charge ― is there even a word for that in english? break in load continuity?], walking distance to destination, comfort [including pedestrian comfort from the end of motorized or active transportation to final destination]) are important variables in the choice of the mean of transportation. Time or distance themselves are variables to consider among the other listed.

As there is a customership to establish from blank, you cannot just put a train that "far" (mental mapping speaking ― the bridge is seen as an "obstacle") from downtown and expect it to be popular.

There are many buses that head into and disperse throughout the CBD. If they started with that it would be good. Once they have the ridership, putting a bridge in would happen. For that matter, buses from a central terminal would allow those people to disperse to their final destination.

[OCtranspo10]

This may have already been said but if Ottawa were to get one, or multiple lines (Pembroke, Smith Falls, Shawville, Wakefield, Coteau-du-Lac) wouldn't it just be either buy/lease track, for the Smith Falls and Coteau-du-Lac lines from CN and VIA and buy the old track from CN then repair the tracks on Pembroke, Shawville, Wakefield? but another question is who would pay?

[swimmer_spe]

This may have already been said but if Ottawa were to get one, or multiple lines (Pembroke, Smith Falls, Shawville, Wakefield, Coteau-du-Lac) wouldn't it just be either buy/lease track, for the Smith Falls and Coteau-du-Lac lines from CN and VIA and buy the old track from CN then repair the tracks on Pembroke, Shawville, Wakefield? but another question is who would pay?

The taxpayer would pay. It would be money well spent though.

[webfil]

On 03/02/2015 at 1:46 AM, webfil said:

Côte-de-Beaupré regional county municipality (actually served by fast-growing PLUMobile intermunicipal bus service; wiki) has prayed several times for return of the interurban tram service, but studies weight against any rail service ― too expansive for any projected ridership.

Le Massif's regional rail transit serving Charlevoix is looking forward to expand to Québec, and Côte-de-Beaupré wants its share of the deal. (Réseau Charlevoix; wiki). I'd be awfully excited if the german-built cutie-pie DMUs were to serve the capital. However, I hardly see how is that possible, as the speed limits west of Montmorency falls are pretty weak and ssss llllllll ooooo wwww, and Gare du Palais station has high platforms only ― although passenger movements just out of the station would not be impossible.

Well it might have been closer than I thought.

[tomsbuspage]

mOOse applies to the Canadian Transportation Agency seeking federal government authorisation to develop an interprovincial passenger rail service throughout the Ottawa-Gatineau Region:

 

[eclair14]

And if Halifax was the winner

http://www.metronews.ca/news/halifax/2016/07/15/on-track-for-commuter-rail-via-eyeing-service-for-hrm.html