Streetcar News

[smallspy]

14 hours ago, WoodbineSecondExit said:

I thought they were excavating the tunnel as part of fire code upgrades?

That's further north at Union, not at Queens Quay.

Dan

[M. Parsons]

After a quick look I couldn't find anything like a streetcar history thread, so, I'll just ask my question here.

Does anyone have disposal information for TTC sweeper S-41.

Thanks!

[drum118]

4 hours ago, M. Parsons said:

After a quick look I couldn't find anything like a streetcar history thread, so, I'll just ask my question here.

Does anyone have disposal information for TTC sweeper S-41.

Thanks!

Google is your best friend 

Try here https://transittoronto.ca

https://transittoronto.ca/photos/streetcar-models/work-cars/ttc-s-41-19670916.html

 

[T3G]

5 hours ago, drum118 said:

Google is your best friend

If you're going to be snarky, couldn't you at least post a link which actually answers the question?

We know S-41 existed. The question was what happened to it.

10 hours ago, M. Parsons said:

After a quick look I couldn't find anything like a streetcar history thread, so, I'll just ask my question here.

Does anyone have disposal information for TTC sweeper S-41.

Thanks!

Bromley's rosters from 50 Years of Progressive Transit indicate only that it was retired in 1973. I presume that it would be safe to assume it was scrapped, though when, where, or by who is not indicated.

[M. Parsons]

12 hours ago, drum118 said:

Google is your best friend 

Try here https://transittoronto.ca

https://transittoronto.ca/photos/streetcar-models/work-cars/ttc-s-41-19670916.html

 

Gee whiz! Thanks Captain Obvious! Too bad you didn't answer my question. Not by a long shot.

6 hours ago, T3G said:

Bromley's rosters from 50 Years of Progressive Transit indicate only that it was retired in 1973. I presume that it would be safe to assume it was scrapped, though when, where, or by who is not indicated.

Thank you very much. I have seen a photo of the sweeper being unloaded in Edmonton 2 days after the first U2's arrived in April 1977. First time I've ever seen/ heard anything of this sweeper coming West. Having said that, today there is no trace of it that I am aware of. It never received a mention in Edmonton's Electric Transit. 

[T3G]

14 hours ago, M. Parsons said:

Gee whiz! Thanks Captain Obvious! Too bad you didn't answer my question. Not by a long shot.

Thank you very much. I have seen a photo of the sweeper being unloaded in Edmonton 2 days after the first U2's arrived in April 1977. First time I've ever seen/ heard anything of this sweeper coming West. Having said that, today there is no trace of it that I am aware of. It never received a mention in Edmonton's Electric Transit. 

I tried asking my contacts about it and none of them were aware of any further misadventures the car may have gotten up to post 1973.

The only other possible place I could think there would be any reference to it would be somewhere deep in the archives of the Upper Canada Railway Society's publications. That is something of a gamble, though.

https://www.railwaypages.com/upper-canada-railway-society-ucrs-and-its-publications

[M. Parsons]

14 hours ago, T3G said:

I tried asking my contacts about it and none of them were aware of any further misadventures the car may have gotten up to post 1973.

The only other possible place I could think there would be any reference to it would be somewhere deep in the archives of the Upper Canada Railway Society's publications. That is something of a gamble, though.

https://www.railwaypages.com/upper-canada-railway-society-ucrs-and-its-publications

Thanks, I'll try that too. Looked through Bytown's archives and Expo Rails Canadian Rail collection.

[Turtle]

More streetcar gossip:

 

Stop calls have not been working properly since just past the middle of March because of a faulty software update. They can't roll back the update, because it bricked the gps boards in the streetcars. They replaced a few and those got bricked as well. Now they are going through the slow process of replacing the gps stop call boards. They are getting through a handful of streetcars a day. Can't imagine that is cheap, or that those boards are easy to come by. I imagine that electronic technicians are super busy resoldering ROM chips, or reflashing them onboard and testing like crazy.

 

While we wait another week or two for them to be complete with the swaps, they have upper management riding around auditing the drivers for stop call procedures, for fear of an AODA violation, even though the ttc is currently violating the AODA for having the visual text led stop sign boards not showing the stop names.

[Shaun]

14 hours ago, Turtle said:

More streetcar gossip:

 

Stop calls have not been working properly since just past the middle of March because of a faulty software update. They can't roll back the update, because it bricked the gps boards in the streetcars. They replaced a few and those got bricked as well. Now they are going through the slow process of replacing the gps stop call boards. They are getting through a handful of streetcars a day. Can't imagine that is cheap, or that those boards are easy to come by. I imagine that electronic technicians are super busy resoldering ROM chips, or reflashing them onboard and testing like crazy.

 

While we wait another week or two for them to be complete with the swaps, they have upper management riding around auditing the drivers for stop call procedures, for fear of an AODA violation, even though the ttc is currently violating the AODA for having the visual text led stop sign boards not showing the stop names.

Who ever pushes that update probably lost their job ...

[Xtrazsteve]

21 hours ago, Turtle said:

More streetcar gossip:

 

Stop calls have not been working properly since just past the middle of March because of a faulty software update. They can't roll back the update, because it bricked the gps boards in the streetcars. They replaced a few and those got bricked as well. Now they are going through the slow process of replacing the gps stop call boards. They are getting through a handful of streetcars a day. Can't imagine that is cheap, or that those boards are easy to come by. I imagine that electronic technicians are super busy resoldering ROM chips, or reflashing them onboard and testing like crazy.

 

While we wait another week or two for them to be complete with the swaps, they have upper management riding around auditing the drivers for stop call procedures, for fear of an AODA violation, even though the ttc is currently violating the AODA for having the visual text led stop sign boards not showing the stop names.

This is such a failure on so many levels. Let's hope it's not as seriously expensive as it is and it's just the lack of expertise.

1. Where did the update come from, Alstom or TTC? Where ever create the update should have tested it on one machine before mass update.

2. Whoever design the damn board should have thought about this. Then again it's Bombardier so I didn't expect much. Things brick all the time due to data corruption and aging.

3. If the streetcars were to last 30 years, they should have figure they need to replace the ROMs at some point as they will definitely not last 30 years with all the read and writes. You home SSDs won't even last half as long. Either the board or the ROMs need to be easily updatable. 

4. There should be a back up plan since AODA is a law not some fancy service.

 

I got an idea, just pull all streetcars and suspend all routes if those "advocates" starts complaining. Can't get a fine with no violation!

 

[Turtle]

9 hours ago, Shaun said:

Who ever pushes that update probably lost their job ...

It's possible they have different versions of that gps stop call destination sign board in the streetcars, since I was told only about 90 were damaged in the software update. Or it could be that something in the update process went bad, where the update could not be fully written. Here I am speculating again.

 

If I was part of the team responsible for that software update, I would be worried. In the grand scheme of things, where are they going to find embedded software engineers with that kind of experience in todays job market?

 

2 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

I got an idea, just pull all streetcars and suspend all routes if those "advocates" starts complaining. Can't get a fine with no violation!

 

That was my thought, since they are being given an exception for the led boards violating the AODA for the hearing impaired at the moment. As a passenger in a crowded vehicle, it isn't easy to determine what street you are approaching without it working. It was a lot easier to see out with the high floor vehicles, except the days that all the windows were fogged up.

[Xtrazsteve]

I got a simple backup solution is just have an external input to the PA system. Attach a mp3 player and simply record and play each "tune" on the player. All the recordings can be done at head office. It's just simple text to speech and save as mp3 file. The mp3 player could be some cheap stuff from the 2000s with a simple lcd screen showing the track name and each stop would be in order. Just organize each route/direction in different folders and all the operator have to do is press next. 

What are the chances they didn't design the system with an external connection? Cause they "thought" they don't need it.

[Turtle]

11 minutes ago, Xtrazsteve said:

I got a simple backup solution is just have an external input to the PA system. Attach a mp3 player and simply record and play each "tune" on the player. All the recordings can be done at head office. It's just simple text to speech and save as mp3 file. The mp3 player could be some cheap stuff from the 2000s with a simple lcd screen showing the track name and each stop would be in order. Just organize each route/direction in different folders and all the operator have to do is press next. 

Sounds like the design of the original stop call system on the subway, except they use tags to trigger the correct stop call. 

 

11 minutes ago, Xtrazsteve said:

What are the chances they didn't design the system with an external connection? Cause they "thought" they don't need it.

They integrated the vision system on the buses, but on streetcar vision isn't connected to the streetcar for the most part. That would be a permanent fix if they could do it, once warranty is up and Alstom allows it. 

 

Another possibility for the system not working is that their network at the yard got hacked. Someone wanted to cause damage, or someone wanted to have a joke destination sign or stop call. 

[Shaun]

2 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

I got a simple backup solution is just have an external input to the PA system. Attach a mp3 player and simply record and play each "tune" on the player. All the recordings can be done at head office. It's just simple text to speech and save as mp3 file. The mp3 player could be some cheap stuff from the 2000s with a simple lcd screen showing the track name and each stop would be in order. Just organize each route/direction in different folders and all the operator have to do is press next. 

What are the chances they didn't design the system with an external connection? Cause they "thought" they don't need it.

That would only work if they played the correct file for the correct route in the correct direction. What if there is a glitch and someone gets off the the wrong stop and gets lost? It's easier for the operator to call stops. 

[Turtle]

On 4/21/2023 at 7:53 AM, Shaun said:

It's easier for the operator to call stops. 

Unfortunately it isn't. There are so many variables to the quality and clarity of sound coming from the internal speakers in a vehicle. The most reliable system for stop calls is an automated system based on gps. The original stop call system on buses, before the vision system, was far more accurate and reliable than what they have now. Clever Devices my butt. What you have now is a system that calls stops too late, or too early depending on whatever weather is affecting it. People have their heads buried in their cellphones, and are relying solely on the stop call system for their stop. They bitch and whine to @ttchelps when they miss their stop because the driver didn't stop for them, even though they pressed the stop request "before the stop".

 

In reality, either the vision system is calling out the next stop before arriving at the current stop, or is calling the stop super late so that if the vehicle is doing anything approaching 40km/h they don't have a chance to request their stop before the bus passes it. It's always the operator's fault for missing their stop though.

 

But...this is a streetcar thread, so ... the driver has so much to do and is responsible for so much, how are you going to put that responsibility of stop calls on them as well? So they have to watch out for traffic, cyclists, pedestrians, as well as operating the vehicle smoothly, safely, and efficiently, plus having to look down at a stop call list or the green bar on vision or street signs to tell people what the next stop is? But, when that streetcar gets in an accident where distraction played a part, or when someone with a disability or otherwise needed a little extra assistance gets lost it's the operator's fault?

 

Add to that those people who think every driver should know where every side street or destination in the city is. Sorry, most of them are barely coping with the major intersections. It isn't their job to know where you want to go, that's what google maps is for. They will try to help you for the most part, but time and schedule limits their helpfulness.

[WoodbineSecondExit]

3 hours ago, Turtle said:

But...this is a streetcar thread, so ... the driver has so much to do and is responsible for so much, how are you going to put that responsibility of stop calls on them as well? So they have to watch out for traffic, cyclists, pedestrians, as well as operating the vehicle smoothly, safely, and efficiently, plus having to look down at a stop call list or the green bar on vision or street signs to tell people what the next stop is? But, when that streetcar gets in an accident where distraction played a part, or when someone with a disability or otherwise needed a little extra assistance gets lost it's the operator's fault?

 

Add to that those people who think every driver should know where every side street or destination in the city is. Sorry, most of them are barely coping with the major intersections. It isn't their job to know where you want to go, that's what google maps is for. They will try to help you for the most part, but time and schedule limits their helpfulness.

That's how it used to be before all of this fancy technology. There were drivers who used to do that.

[Turtle]

5 hours ago, WoodbineSecondExit said:

That's how it used to be before all of this fancy technology. There were drivers who used to do that.

Yes, I used to have to do it operating a bus after David Lepofsky won his ruling. I also remember seeing him riding a line 1 train totally engulfed in reviewing audio notes on his recording device with headphones in while riding a train southbound approaching Eglinton. Yes, it would violate his human rights if the stop calls weren't called clearly and correctly, but it is his right to zone out and not pay attention while riding transit.

 

Main streets are super easy, but unless the driver does that route all the time and has a good memory or ability to memorize, calling all the other stops are a distraction to the safe operation of the vehicle.

 

I actually got told off by a passenger to shut up back sometime in 2008, that me calling the stops was bugging her. Another guy in 2009 asked me to shut the automatic stop caller off, that he was the only one on the bus and it was too loud for him.

 

Can't make everybody happy or help everyone.

[Mark Walton]

On 4/23/2023 at 11:10 PM, Turtle said:

I actually got told off by a passenger to shut up back sometime in 2008, that me calling the stops was bugging her. Another guy in 2009 asked me to shut the automatic stop caller off, that he was the only one on the bus and it was too loud for him.

That went as far back as the late 70s when TTC first proposed subway stop announcements. Some Karens, or whatever they were called back then, complained that the announcements would disturb them while they were reading. A few even wrote letters to The Star threatening to cut up their CNIB eye donor cards! Plus ça change...

[Ed T.]

On 4/23/2023 at 11:10 PM, Turtle said:

Another guy in 2009 asked me to shut the automatic stop caller off, that he was the only one on the bus and it was too loud for him.

While random vehicles can have painfully loud announcements, the Flyer D40LFs were pretty consistently bad for blaring stop announcements.

[CJ.]

14 minutes ago, Ed T. said:

While random vehicles can have painfully loud announcements, the Flyer D40LFs were pretty consistently bad for blaring stop announcements.

The same can be said about the New Flyer XE40 and BYD electric buses right now

[Turtle]

On 4/28/2023 at 2:27 PM, Ed T. said:

While random vehicles can have painfully loud announcements, the Flyer D40LFs were pretty consistently bad for blaring stop announcements.

But that is exactly not the point. No matter what you do, somebody is not going to be happy.

 

It's a huge, and I mean huge distraction for a driver to have to figure out what the next stop is if they don't have the route memorized. How do you think that driver knows what the next stop is? Looking away from what they are supposed to be paying attention to and reading on a printed sheet or a text bar on a screen? Trying to read street signs, while they are trying to look for the next stop and if people are waiting at the next stop for the vehicle? It's their job right? It's also their job to concentrate on safe smooth efficient driving.

 

I rode on a bus the other day, the audible announcements were being made at a reasonable level, but the LED text display wasn't working (one of the newer buses that have a big screen that says welcome aboard and has a ton of wasted space). Of course, there was a couple people having a really loud conversation, and someone else was looking at tiktoks on their phone with the volume loud enough for the whole bus to hear. You tell them to shut up, that you need to hear what stop is next, what happens? More than your human rights will be violated.

 

But if you are someone who needs the stop calling (audible or text) to get to your destination, and some asshat thinks they are more important than everybody else, or that what they are doing doesn't bother anybody, what happens is you are stuck trying to understand a computerized voice through crappy speakers over all the other noise or distractions on the bus. Or you have to ask the driver to tell them when their stop comes up. Why should someone have to do that? That's a violation of the individuals human rights, but the jerk with the tiktoks on their cell or on a video call with their volume on (instead of using ear buds) does not care about how they effect others.

 

They get all loud and ragey when somebody tells them to turn it down, because how dare they right? They don't want to be bugged by anybody, they just want to be left alone, but don't care that what they are doing negatively affects other people. Selfish, narcissistic asshats, but public transit is for everybody.

 

Of course, anybody who tells someone to turn the volume down on their cellphone is racist. Just like not opening the doors between stops, even though the vehicle is stuck in traffic, means the driver is racist. Everybody employed driving a public transit vehicle is some form of -ist, ablist, racist, sexist, whatever suits the argument right?

 

Yes,  public transit.

[Bus_Medic]

For the record, the clever system has interior and exterior microphones which measure ambient noise and adjust volume accordingly.

[Turtle]

1 minute ago, Bus_Medic said:

For the record, the clever system has interior and exterior microphones which measure ambient noise and adjust volume accordingly.

Yes, but that doesn't help when you are a passenger who is unfamiliar with the route, and have difficultly understanding the audible announcements (robotic voice not clear, other people on the bus making noise (cellphone, talking, ...) and have to rely on the text display when the text display is defective). I find that the audible announcements on most ttc buses are too quiet 99% of the time for me, I have to rely on the text display.

 

But...vision calls the stops either way too early or way too late. The old system they had was a lot better.

 

Luckily for me I am still fairly able bodied and can walk if I miss my stop.  Frustrating trying to figure out where the bus is, when there are a bunch of noisy inconsiderate self centered people on board, even when you are familiar with the network.

[Bus_Medic]

4 hours ago, Turtle said:

Yes, but that doesn't help when you are a passenger who is unfamiliar with the route, and have difficultly understanding the audible announcements (robotic voice not clear, other people on the bus making noise (cellphone, talking, ...) and have to rely on the text display when the text display is defective). I find that the audible announcements on most ttc buses are too quiet 99% of the time for me, I have to rely on the text display.

 

But...vision calls the stops either way too early or way too late. The old system they had was a lot better.

 

Luckily for me I am still fairly able bodied and can walk if I miss my stop.  Frustrating trying to figure out where the bus is, when there are a bunch of noisy inconsiderate self centered people on board, even when you are familiar with the network.

I just run the wires. Everything else is beyond my pay grade.

[Turtle]

3 hours ago, Bus_Medic said:

I just run the wires. Everything else is beyond my pay grade.

 

In theory everything is great with the current system, but vision sucks balls in practice. Press Yellow (emergency button) or Orange (mechanical) and wait up to a minute for a response. Press talk (blue) and you can wait 20 minutes or never for them to respond. The drivers are not allowed to use their cell at any time when in the seat, but if there is an emergency and the yellow isn't working and their personal safety is at risk what are they to do? With vision a lot of times they don't get communication because the system doesn't have reliable connectivity, or the supervisors running the line in control are ignoring the calls or overwhelmed with other calls.

 

With trump, you would get a response basically right away in most cases on a talk request. In subway a green non emergency talk request gets answered in less than a minute most times.

 

Riding other systems around the gta, it seems like they have their gps/stop calling issues sorted out for the most part. Clear, reliable, and at the appropriate time. Then again, those systems have stops spaced far further apart than the ttc has.