Toronto Rocket Subway Cars

[noahrp24]

There is more than enough T1's for Line 2 plus the Scarborough subway extension. There will never be a shortage of T1's. The TTC overbought TR's to convert the entire line 1.

For Line 1, there might be a shortage of TR's thanks to Bombardier's strike. They need 51 TR trains but only have 56 TR's. That's only 5 trains for spares.

I knew that there was way more then enough of T1s. As for the TRs they still are working out with the delay

[ttc rider]

For Line 1, there might be a shortage of TR's thanks to Bombardier's strike. They need 51 TR trains but only have 56 TR's. That's only 5 trains for spares.

There are still T1 trains on the YUS line.

At least for the past 12-13 years, the YUS has traditionally required 59-60 trainsets for a maximum service of 49 trains (during PM peak). With the planned service increase next board, they wil probably need 61-62, so the T1s will hang around a bit longer than expected. I am still trying to figure out how many ended up on the YUS/Sheppard lines after the recent switcheroo between Wilson and Greenwood.

[smallspy]

There is more than enough T1's for Line 2 plus the Scarborough subway extension. There will never be a shortage of T1's. The TTC overbought TR's to convert the entire line 1.

None of those statements are true.

If the Scarborough Subway extension is built, the TTC will only have enough trainsets to run every second train past Kennedy.

As for the TRs, once ATC/ATO is running on the whole of the Yonge-University-Spadina Line - including the extension - they will have enough to run trains every 140 seconds from Finch to Wilson, and 240 the rest of the rest of the way to Vaughan. There won't be any improvement beyond that unless they cut back the short-turns on the west side to somewhere further south.

Dan

[nfitz]

There is more than enough T1's for Line 2 plus the Scarborough subway extension. There will never be a shortage of T1's.

Looking back at the 2013-2022 Capital budget and Steve Munro's summary table of subway fleet plans - http://stevemunro.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/FleetPlans201312.pdf there's currently 45 BD trainsets in daily use, resulting in 7 spare T1 trainsets. When ATC is completed on the BD line they will add 4-5 more trains resulting in only one spare train set by 2025.

The council report on the Scarborough subway extension http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2013.CC39.5 indicated that they would need 7 new trainsets.

Not only is there not more than enough T1s for Line 2 plus the Scarborough extension; there's not even enough T1s for the Scarborough extension!

[Xtrazsteve]

Looking back at the 2013-2022 Capital budget and Steve Munro's summary table of subway fleet plans - http://stevemunro.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/FleetPlans201312.pdf there's currently 45 BD trainsets in daily use, resulting in 7 spare T1 trainsets. When ATC is completed on the BD line they will add 4-5 more trains resulting in only one spare train set by 2025.

The council report on the Scarborough subway extension http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2013.CC39.5 indicated that they would need 7 new trainsets.

Not only is there not more than enough T1s for Line 2 plus the Scarborough extension; there's not even enough T1s for the Scarborough extension!

ATO isn't going to be done by 2025, that's for sure. ATO on Line 1 is pushed to 2018/2019. If we're lucky, ATO will start on Line 2 by the end of the decade and would finish by late 2020s. Also, ATO doesn't work with T1's, so that's why I concluded that there will be enough T1's for the Scarborough Extension with the current signals. Retrofitting the T1's with ATO is expensive gravy making. Those 7 spares are enough for the Scarborough Extension.

By 2025, we'll be talking about getting new trains. Supposedly they'll want 7 car trains on Line 1 and move all the TR's to Line 2/4. Then there will be 80 TR's for Line 2/4. Hopefully we can start on the DRL by the end of the decade and have some of the TR's service the DRL before they hit the graveyard in the late 2030s if they even last that long.

Greenwood plus Vincent and Kipling tail tracks cannot short 7 additional trains for the Scarborough Subway. The DRL is going to need another yard. They should build another yard in Scarborough and have Greenwood serve the DRL as well. This is going to be another bloody fight on where another yard would go. I think Scarborough should suck it up cause they wanted this extension so badly, the should know that trains need to be maintained somewhere. They could consider buying out the industrial area beside the railway yard just north of Nugget and build the new yard there.

[nfitz]

ATO isn't going to be done by 2025, that's for sure. ATO on Line 1 is pushed to 2018/2019. If we're lucky, ATO will start on Line 2 by the end of the decade and would finish by late 2020s. Also, ATO doesn't work with T1's, so that's why I concluded that there will be enough T1's for the Scarborough Extension with the current signals. Retrofitting the T1's with ATO is expensive gravy making. Those 7 spares are enough for the Scarborough Extension.

You stated that "There will never be a shortage of T1's."

If they never add another train to the BD line, Shepppard Line, and 7 trains is indeed sufficient for the BD extension to Sheppherd, then there will 0 train spare train sets left.

Therefore, there are several scenarios where there will be a shortage of T1s:

- addition of 1 more trainset to the Sheppard line

- addition of 1 more trainset to BD line

- accident involving destruction of 1 T1 car

- addition of an additional station on BD extension (say at Eglinton and Danforth Road)

- acceleration of ATO installation

Never say never ...

[FlyerD901]

5851 set has the blue seats.

[TTC5327]

Does anyone know if TR set 5941-5946 is in service yet?

[38 Highland Creek]

Does anyone know if TR set 5941-5946 is in service yet?

Probly in the next couple of weeks.

[noahrp24]

Does anyone know which train got spray painted?

http://m.imgur.com/UnufH1z

[Xtrazsteve]

Does anyone know which train got spray painted?

http://m.imgur.com/UnufH1z

It's something like 5X51, could be 5851.

[Robert Lubinski]

It's something like 5X51, could be 5851.

It was 5851. You can see the exterior chime speakers over the doors.

[FlyerD901]

TR 5941-5946 has been testing all week this week. By next week it should be in service.

[lip]

TR 5941-5946 has been testing all week this week. By next week it should be in service.

Do you know if this set is equipped with external speakers and new handrails?

[FlyerD901]

I didn't even look for that. Next time I see it I will let you know.

[Ber]

I've noticed that the set(S) with rhe external speakers play the chime and the warning message simultaneously on the inside speakers

A smart move considering a lot of door operators like to close the doors early and make the safety msg redundant

[FlyerD901]

5941 looks to be ready for service. I didn't get the chance to check for external speakers.

5951 is currently being delivered, and put together

[Robert Lubinski]

5941 looks to be ready for service. I didn't get the chance to check for external speakers.

5951 is currently being delivered, and put together

Thanks for the report. Let us know if/when you see it in service.

[VivaLa1517]

I almost forgot to mention. I spotted set 594x in service heading southbound at Glencairn station this afternoon.

[wil9402]

5941 looks to be ready for service. I didn't get the chance to check for external speakers.

5951 is currently being delivered, and put together

Rode 5941-46 this morning. It does not have external speakers or the extra overhead hand bars. It was too packed to see if it had blue seats. The only new thing it has is the new Emergency Alarm stickers under the PAA strips.

[lip]

Rode 5941-46 this morning. It does not have external speakers or the extra overhead hand bars. It was too packed to see if it had blue seats. The only new thing it has is the new Emergency Alarm stickers under the PAA strips.

Nice spotting. I dont know why Bombardier didnt just outfit this set while it was sitting at the plant, but its their loss. They're going to have to waste their own resources coming to Toronto do it later on.

[smallspy]

Nice spotting. I dont know why Bombardier didnt just outfit this set while it was sitting at the plant, but its their loss. They're going to have to waste their own resources coming to Toronto do it later on.

Because half of it was sent to Toronto during the strike.

Dan

[Xtrazsteve]

The TTC changed the specification during delivery. So the change would cost the TTC more as Bombardier would have to add an additional assembly for blue seats. They'll have to store and handle a different type of seat which normally doesn't come free. It could be part of the updated contract for late deliveries to have them installed as compensation.

Also if the TTC wanted something changed in the middle of delivery, Bombardier would take some time to make adjustments. As noted, during the strike, the adjustment cannot be made. It might be cheaper to deliver the train set first, clear the assembly time so the next train can start production and have the TTC bill Bombardier for swamping to blue seats.

I don't know why the TTC didn't start the blue seat business earlier. I'm assuming all the flip seats will be replaced so all the current red flip seats will be useless. Unless replacing the fabric is cheap (which I highly doubt) this is going to cost some money to replace all the flip seats in 50+ train sets. Unlike buses, streetcars and T1s, those red seats can be reused in other seat locations, these flip seats can't.

[noahrp24]

The TTC changed the specification during delivery. So the change would cost the TTC more as Bombardier would have to add an additional assembly for blue seats. They'll have to store and handle a different type of seat which normally doesn't come free. It could be part of the updated contract for late deliveries to have them installed as compensation.

Also if the TTC wanted something changed in the middle of delivery, Bombardier would take some time to make adjustments. As noted, during the strike, the adjustment cannot be made. It might be cheaper to deliver the train set first, clear the assembly time so the next train can start production and have the TTC bill Bombardier for swamping to blue seats.

I don't know why the TTC didn't start the blue seat business earlier. I'm assuming all the flip seats will be replaced so all the current red flip seats will be useless. Unless replacing the fabric is cheap (which I highly doubt) this is going to cost some money to replace all the flip seats in 50+ train sets. Unlike buses, streetcars and T1s, those red seats can be reused in other seat locations, these flip seats can't.

I know right. Before all the seats were either American Seating 850 or 6468 and now we have insights, flip seats ,and even those new streetcar seats. Isn't making or refurbishing those seats going to cost the commission more? Since they are different from the rest?

The TTC changed the specification during delivery. So the change would cost the TTC more as Bombardier would have to add an additional assembly for blue seats. They'll have to store and handle a different type of seat which normally doesn't come free. It could be part of the updated contract for late deliveries to have them installed as compensation.

Also if the TTC wanted something changed in the middle of delivery, Bombardier would take some time to make adjustments. As noted, during the strike, the adjustment cannot be made. It might be cheaper to deliver the train set first, clear the assembly time so the next train can start production and have the TTC bill Bombardier for swamping to blue seats.

I don't know why the TTC didn't start the blue seat business earlier. I'm assuming all the flip seats will be replaced so all the current red flip seats will be useless. Unless replacing the fabric is cheap (which I highly doubt) this is going to cost some money to replace all the flip seats in 50+ train sets. Unlike buses, streetcars and T1s, those red seats can be reused in other seat locations, these flip seats can't.

I know right. Before all the seats were either American Seating 850 or 6468 and now we have insights, flip seats ,and even those new streetcar seats. Isn't making or refurbishing those seats going to cost the commission more? Since they are different from the rest?

[Xtrazsteve]

I know right. Before all the seats were either American Seating 850 or 6468 and now we have insights, flip seats ,and even those new streetcar seats. Isn't making or refurbishing those seats going to cost the commission more? Since they are different from the rest?

I know right. Before all the seats were either American Seating 850 or 6468 and now we have insights, flip seats ,and even those new streetcar seats. Isn't making or refurbishing those seats going to cost the commission more? Since they are different from the rest?

I will assume so base on basic production line theory. Nothing comes free in this world. The TTC can offset the cost by mass producing them and ordering material in large quantity. The TTC will say that it shouldn't cost more because once they hit a certain quantity, they get the lowest price.

Of course that means they have to store 4 times as much materials and train employees to produce different types of seats. Those storage space could be used for other storage. If their storage space is limited and it affects other operations, this will translate to an additional cost for the TTC. Of course they will never admit this even if it happens. Second, those flip seats do break. I seen some that don't fold out or in. Flip seats definitely will add to the maintenance cost.