TTC being privatized?

[The Canadian Roadgeek]

What are we going to do when there are emergencies in stations? When people need help?

I've never seen a fare collector inside a booth to help people for emergencies. I almost walked past a barrier-free entrance without dropping a fare, just to check if they're paying attention. And the thing is, they're too busy to look elsewhere and talk to others to see even if I dropped a fare (and of course I did drop a fare in the end, that's the right thing to do...), but see how useless these "extra employees" are? And besides, we are going into an electronic age, and the fare media are going to be electronic in the coming years (it's already electronic in many parts of the world, and under the government we're not going to get these innovations.)

And we have a station manager, that's the person who's going to help.

Yeah, like any government wants to commit what amounts to political suicide when they're at the helm. Yes people are too reliant on the automobile, but if one government, politician or party proposes to enact restrictions on it, they're not going to be popular in the next vote.

And if you're going to force people to take transit, it better be a damn good system.

If we're going to keep this government, the only way I see it is to increase tax (which people are going to say no), and another way is to charge every single vehicle flowing in and out of the Downtown core to fund public transit. That'll increase revenue on the public transit system and also help alleviate the financial dilemma for the City of Toronto. And that's a problem with democracy too (I'm not promoting communism here), but if you look at Beijing, they're planning to implement alternative driving days. In Canada, we can't really force that to happen, but I'm sure people are getting tired of driving on congested roads. One problem here is that buses are on these congested roads, and they're even slower than cars (average speed for bus ~20 km s^-1, that is if we're lucky; and for a car it's 40 km s^-1. It often takes double the time to get from A to B on a bus than on a car (at least for suburban Toronto).) If we can really fix that then that'll convince people to abandon their cars.

Actually we'll get the exact same wages we always had. The union has successor rights if they privatize transit here, therefore no matter who is running the service, it'll still be unionized and the union most certainly won't let them decrease our salary. And good luck trying to find 6000 more qualified transit operators on short notice if they try to replace us... the TTC has enough trouble doing that now with our current salary and benefits (and the current hiring freeze is a budgetary thing, we have lots of open work at most divisions everyday so we can most certainly use the extra bodies). While the TTC always gets many applications, very few of them are qualified... and of those that are qualified who make it through the selection process, a frightening number of them don't make it through training, and not always because they failed. But I digress...

As for privatization in general... take a look at the Canada Line in Vancouver to see why privatization doesn't work. It was built under a Public Private Partnership... the line is completely inadequate. It doesn't have enough carrying capacity and is thus always overcrowded. The trains are only one articulated unit (two cars) each when they should be longer, the stations were not designed in such a way that they can be easily extended, and the amount of trains they have is not enough for the service (they only have one spare unit in case of a breakdown... yikes!!). This is all because it was built with profits in mind and thus corners were cut at every opportunity.

There's a reason why many cities now have public transportation where they once had private... Toronto included. Privatized transit would provide the same if not worse service, at a higher cost to the city because the private company needs to make a profit. Transit operator wages would not change (nor should they), so there wouldn't be any profit to be had there.

As for the competition argument... well we can see how well that's working with the airlines, who constantly cry for government bailouts while nickle and diming passengers for every little thing from extra luggage to pillows while charging outrageously expensive fares. Don't think the same won't happen on a local transit scale.

Well, like I said, we're cutting jobs. If we have ~2 fare collectors per station multiplied by about 69 stations, that's enough to implement auto-fare entrance (I don't see given with our current technology we still need someone to sit in a station to collect the fares. In 2011, you make a machine that counts your fare. Not by some random person.)... We have 7.5 million people in the Greater Toronto Area and 2.6 million in the City proper, and you say we can't find 6,000 drivers that are more qualified? I've seen many drivers that shouldn't be even getting the job. And with a governmental organization, they often assign a job that's capable of one person to like a team of 3 people. Like I've seen government organizations with 3 people photocopying. o_O why 3 people? And even till this day (after all that "bad news" regarding TTC), there are still drivers stopping and buying coffee/doughnut from Tim Hortons.

I don't see how people are saying we're subsidizing private transit in infrastructure. Well, without the private companies, we as tax payers have to pay for the entire cost, and now a private company is willing to pay a portion of it (even though a company will charge you for that later, but it's the job of the government to monitor the increase of fare, and try to stop it if it gets out of hand (this should be included in the contract).)

I'm just going to put this way: We're not paying $100,000 yearly to a fare collector when we're paying like $10,000 (or even maybe less) for cashiers. Seriously, why are they getting paid like a professional when a high school student can do this job? This is how they make profit: just cutting like 140 fare collectors (assuming 2 per station) saves ~$1,000,000 yearly (which I know is not a lot, but it is money saved).

Privatization doesn't fail in every part of the world. Part of the reason privatization fails is cause they're monopoly, much like the TTC, as a saying goes, without competition, there'll never be improvements. Like the 407 doesn't have a competition. See what happens if we build another freeway north of say like Major Mac right now, with way cheaper fares and see what happens. 407's sales is threatened, and that'll power 407 into doing something.

For the competition argument, the charging of little things is to make up for the ever-going up fuel cost (and the government charges a lot of tax on the fuel, so it's also on part of the government), it has nothing to do with competition. And the fare scale is not working right now (I understand it's the problem with the paper fares right now... like I said, there should be electronic fare right now. Like no more paper fares), anyhow, it's not fair for a person to travel from say like Bay Station to Sherbourne Station and pay $3.00, where as a person travelling from Steeles / Sewells to say like Kipling / Lake Shore and pay $3.00. You implement zone fares, and that's how you make money too for private companies. You don't just necessarily cut service. For a private company to be successful, you don't just cut service (reduce spendings), you think of ways to increase revenue, and that's zone fare. Like charging $0.20 per km or something like that. If you think that's too expensive, then take GO Transit, it's about the same price. Short-ride customers shouldn't be subsidizing long-ride customers. And you get a lot of money from that.

[rocketdriver2019]

Well, like I said, we're cutting jobs. If we have ~2 fare collectors per station multiplied by about 69 stations, that's enough to implement auto-fare entrance (I don't see given with our current technology we still need someone to sit in a station to collect the fares. In 2011, you make a machine that counts your fare. Not by some random person.)...

There will always be staff at the stations... insurance costs would go through the roof if the TTC did not staff it's stations. And just about every city I've been to with automated fare collection still had staff on duty at the stations... their duties were just modified to include helping people with the machines and keeping general order in the stations. If you go to (privatized) London, for example, they have several staff members in their stations despite the presence of automated fare collection.

We have 7.5 million people in the Greater Toronto Area and 2.6 million in the City proper, and you say we can't find 6,000 drivers that are more qualified?

Evidently not, since the TTC tries all the time and comes up short. It's not enough that the person is qualified, the person also has to want the job... if there are more qualified people out there, they aren't applying. Likely because they see the BS that we go through on a daily basis and don't think it's worth the salary we make (and now you know why we're paid what we are). I know of one person in the training class behind me that dropped out of the training program because she could make more money with less stress if she stuck to trucking.

I've seen many drivers that shouldn't be even getting the job. And with a governmental organization, they often assign a job that's capable of one person to like a team of 3 people. Like I've seen government organizations with 3 people photocopying. o_O why 3 people?

As is the case with many private companies. That's bad management... the presence of which isn't dependent on whether an organization is private or public.

And even till this day (after all that "bad news" regarding TTC), there are still drivers stopping and buying coffee/doughnut from Tim Hortons.

Which they are perfectly allowed to do if they're running early (how else should they kill the time). And that is true of every transit authority, public or private. I've seen YRT drivers do the same thing... they just don't get the media attention because nobody cares about transit in York Region.

I don't see how people are saying we're subsidizing private transit in infrastructure. Well, without the private companies, we as tax payers have to pay for the entire cost, and now a private company is willing to pay a portion of it

So if I hire a private contractor to refurbish my bathroom, then the contractor will be willing to pay a portion of it?

(even though a company will charge you for that later, but it's the job of the government to monitor the increase of fare, and try to stop it if it gets out of hand (this should be included in the contract).)

And that's different from how they currently do things how, exactly?

I'm just going to put this way: We're not paying $100,000 yearly to a fare collector when we're paying like $10,000 (or even maybe less) for cashiers. Seriously, why are they getting paid like a professional when a high school student can do this job? This is how they make profit: just cutting like 140 fare collectors (assuming 2 per station) saves ~$1,000,000 yearly (which I know is not a lot, but it is money saved).

For the 684094324021938651093856314095816734509138457610986713425987th time... only collectors working massive amounts of overtime make that salary. Most collectors don't make nearly that amount... and the TTC is saving money by having a collector working overtime vs hiring a whole new collector.

And being responsible for an entire subway station and everything in it as well as a rather large cash float is not the same as being a cashier at Wal-Mart. A manager at Wal-Mart, maybe.

Privatization doesn't fail in every part of the world. Part of the reason privatization fails is cause they're monopoly, much like the TTC, as a saying goes, without competition, there'll never be improvements.

Nor will there be with competition. When the New York subway system was private you had two companies competing with each other by building parallel lines very close to each other while the city ended up having to build lines to service new areas the private companies didn't see as profitable, despite there being competition.

Like the 407 doesn't have a competition. See what happens if we build another freeway north of say like Major Mac right now, with way cheaper fares and see what happens. 407's sales is threatened, and that'll power 407 into doing something.

Ummm... the 401? And it's even free!

For the competition argument, the charging of little things is to make up for the ever-going up fuel cost (and the government charges a lot of tax on the fuel, so it's also on part of the government), it has nothing to do with competition.

So private buses will run on apple juice then?

And the fare scale is not working right now (I understand it's the problem with the paper fares right now... like I said, there should be electronic fare right now. Like no more paper fares), anyhow, it's not fair for a person to travel from say like Bay Station to Sherbourne Station and pay $3.00, where as a person travelling from Steeles / Sewells to say like Kipling / Lake Shore and pay $3.00. You implement zone fares, and that's how you make money too for private companies. You don't just necessarily cut service. For a private company to be successful, you don't just cut service (reduce spendings), you think of ways to increase revenue, and that's zone fare.

Like charging $0.20 per km or something like that. If you think that's too expensive, then take GO Transit, it's about the same price. Short-ride customers shouldn't be subsidizing long-ride customers. And you get a lot of money from that.

And there are plenty of public agencies that charge zone fares, so that has nothing to do with being private either. I would've thought you'd have realized that, what with mentioning GO in that paragraph, but you know what they say about assuming things...

[Orion VIII]

I've never seen a fare collector inside a booth to help people for emergencies.

Really? You'll find "responding to emergencies accordingly" aside "collect fares" and "balance a cash and ticket float" in collectors' job descriptions. You obviously haven't been around during emergencies.

And we have a station manager, that's the person who's going to help.

That's all well and good, however there is not a Station Manager for each station. If a station manager from, say, King were required to respond to an issue involving a northbound train, say, an escalating fight on the northbound platform at Queen, he or she would have no choice but to walk the distance between the stations because it would not be safe for the train to enter the platform at Queen.

What do you suggest for people requiring directions? Help with turnstiles? Collectors are a very legible, accessible TTC employee, based entirely on the virtue that they are always located in the same place. Station Managers, on the other hand, could be anywhere in the station (or outside, or at another station) and therefore inaccessible to those requiring immediate assistance.

And isn't your overall problem with people being overpaid? Newsflash for you: Station Managers are supervisors and therefore make more money than do collectors and operators.

Please, for the sanity of everyone here, really reconsider your arguments from a more holistic approach. Take a look at this map. Right now your arguments are purely from a neo-liberal economist perspective, which, as you can see, pays no regard whatsoever to socio-economic well-being, equality or the environment. Take a look at the issue from a wider, more holistic view and you will see just how flawed your argument is.

For anyone having trouble understanding that map, read this, the map is from page 4.

[Articulated]

I've never seen a fare collector inside a booth to help people for emergencies. I almost walked past a barrier-free entrance without dropping a fare, just to check if they're paying attention. And the thing is, they're too busy to look elsewhere and talk to others to see even if I dropped a fare (and of course I did drop a fare in the end, that's the right thing to do...), but see how useless these "extra employees" are? And besides, we are going into an electronic age, and the fare media are going to be electronic in the coming years (it's already electronic in many parts of the world, and under the government we're not going to get these innovations.)

And we have a station manager, that's the person who's going to help.

Collectors are stationed at each station in order to provide assistance to passengers. There have been many many times where I've walked past the collector booth and he's helping someone who is lost find their way on the system, or even tourists/non-locals lost in the area. It's not possible to provide this type of service using a plain map (even an interactive one, which I'm sure someone like you would flag as "expensive" and "not worth it").

Fare evasion is a common thing as you attempted to do (but technically you didn't, so again your argument is rather useless). Collectors are usually too busy helping people by paying fares, assisting in direction-finding and other station business to monitor 8 turnstyles other than the one they're assigned to. Plus, if they hop out of their booth to deal with an evader, who's to say that the evader will not physically retaliate? It's a safety issue and they won't be covered under workplace safety if they leave their booth.

Presto or open payment system on the TTC will work identically to a Metropass or token today - you walk to a turnstyle, use your card and unlock the turnstyle. You will still need a collector to do all the personal tasks as mentioned above.

If we're going to keep this government, the only way I see it is to increase tax (which people are going to say no), and another way is to charge every single vehicle flowing in and out of the Downtown core to fund public transit. That'll increase revenue on the public transit system and also help alleviate the financial dilemma for the City of Toronto. And that's a problem with democracy too (I'm not promoting communism here), but if you look at Beijing, they're planning to implement alternative driving days. In Canada, we can't really force that to happen, but I'm sure people are getting tired of driving on congested roads. One problem here is that buses are on these congested roads, and they're even slower than cars (average speed for bus ~20 km s^-1, that is if we're lucky; and for a car it's 40 km s^-1. It often takes double the time to get from A to B on a bus than on a car (at least for suburban Toronto).) If we can really fix that then that'll convince people to abandon their cars.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, charging cars is political suicide. Sure it may help raise money but people will still find ways around it. You also need a great transportation system to make it possible for drivers to use before they can make the switch. If you took every driver on the DVP during rush hour and moved them to transit you'd probably fill a subway line to capacity. The only alternative line in the area (Yonge) is already at capacity. Don't tell me the tolls you make from charging drivers will go towards building a replacement subway line - because you need the subway line in place already to make it feasible to charge tolls.

Well, like I said, we're cutting jobs. If we have ~2 fare collectors per station multiplied by about 69 stations, that's enough to implement auto-fare entrance (I don't see given with our current technology we still need someone to sit in a station to collect the fares. In 2011, you make a machine that counts your fare. Not by some random person.)... We have 7.5 million people in the Greater Toronto Area and 2.6 million in the City proper, and you say we can't find 6,000 drivers that are more qualified? I've seen many drivers that shouldn't be even getting the job. And with a governmental organization, they often assign a job that's capable of one person to like a team of 3 people. Like I've seen government organizations with 3 people photocopying. o_O why 3 people? And even till this day (after all that "bad news" regarding TTC), there are still drivers stopping and buying coffee/doughnut from Tim Hortons.

Most stations on the TTC network only have one collector. During rush hours and other busy times other stations may have a second manning the crash gate, but for the majority of the time at the majority of stations it's 1 collector period. Some very busy stations (Dundas, Queen, Union for example) have two at all times, partially because of the setup of the station, but also because they have a lot of tourists and non-locals that need assistance using the system - and as I mentioned earlier again, that type of service cannot be provided using any automatic setup.

Photocopying example - you're using anecdotal evidence again. Give us some hard facts or more than "I saw once" information to make your arguments hold water. Frankly yours are currently not even holding air effectively.

Drivers are humans (unless you wanted to replace them with robots and machines like you do with collectors?) and should most certainly be allowed to take breaks when they physically need to. I challenge you to work an office job or any other type of job where you are not allowed to take breaks to get food at any time during the day. Many drivers are also using this time to go to the bathroom, unless you would prefer the driver to piss themselves in the seat then put the bus out of service (leaving you on the curb for the next one) because of a biohazard on the bus. Getting coffees is also advantageous for you, as it will help the driver stay awake and the chance of falling asleep and crashing the bus with you sustaining injuries from it is decreased.

I don't see how people are saying we're subsidizing private transit in infrastructure. Well, without the private companies, we as tax payers have to pay for the entire cost, and now a private company is willing to pay a portion of it (even though a company will charge you for that later, but it's the job of the government to monitor the increase of fare, and try to stop it if it gets out of hand (this should be included in the contract).)

I'm just going to put this way: We're not paying $100,000 yearly to a fare collector when we're paying like $10,000 (or even maybe less) for cashiers. Seriously, why are they getting paid like a professional when a high school student can do this job? This is how they make profit: just cutting like 140 fare collectors (assuming 2 per station) saves ~$1,000,000 yearly (which I know is not a lot, but it is money saved).

We're not paying $100,000 a year to a fare collector. Only collectors who work huge amounts of overtime end up making anywhere near that amount, and frankly if you devote something outrageous like 12 hours a day 6 days a week to your job then you deserve to get paid well for it.

I'll let other respondents get their say in collector wages as well as comparisons to cashiers.

Privatization doesn't fail in every part of the world. Part of the reason privatization fails is cause they're monopoly, much like the TTC, as a saying goes, without competition, there'll never be improvements. Like the 407 doesn't have a competition. See what happens if we build another freeway north of say like Major Mac right now, with way cheaper fares and see what happens. 407's sales is threatened, and that'll power 407 into doing something.

When GO Transit introduced bus service to a number of far-out communities like Niagara Falls, Kitchener/Waterloo and Peterborough, the private companies like Greyhound and Coach Canada cried foul when another competitor entered the field. Their response was to massively decrease service to these areas to only operate the most profitable trips. The result was no big net gain to transportation along the corridor, as the additional trips provided by GO ended up being cancelled out by the massive decreases by the private carriers. Competition does not mean better results.

For the competition argument, the charging of little things is to make up for the ever-going up fuel cost (and the government charges a lot of tax on the fuel, so it's also on part of the government), it has nothing to do with competition. And the fare scale is not working right now (I understand it's the problem with the paper fares right now... like I said, there should be electronic fare right now. Like no more paper fares), anyhow, it's not fair for a person to travel from say like Bay Station to Sherbourne Station and pay $3.00, where as a person travelling from Steeles / Sewells to say like Kipling / Lake Shore and pay $3.00. You implement zone fares, and that's how you make money too for private companies. You don't just necessarily cut service. For a private company to be successful, you don't just cut service (reduce spendings), you think of ways to increase revenue, and that's zone fare. Like charging $0.20 per km or something like that. If you think that's too expensive, then take GO Transit, it's about the same price. Short-ride customers shouldn't be subsidizing long-ride customers. And you get a lot of money from that.

Smart cards are not needed to implement fare zones. GO Transit has been doing it for decades without a fare card. If you start charging long-haul commuters more for their trip, they'll soon find out it's less worthwhile to make their trips on transit instead of by car and they'll stop. That'll just make a decrease in the ridership especially in your coveted "long-distance" commuter. You also lose money on the short distance trippers too, don't forget. It's a huge balancing game and you haven't taken any in-depth look at it at all. Stop being an armchair critic and go out into the real world to see what it's all about.

[Mike]

 

 

For the competition argument, the charging of little things is to make up for the ever-going up fuel cost (and the government charges a lot of tax on the fuel, so it's also on part of the government), it has nothing to do with competition. And the fare scale is not working right now (I understand it's the problem with the paper fares right now... like I said, there should be electronic fare right now. Like no more paper fares), anyhow, it's not fair for a person to travel from say like Bay Station to Sherbourne Station and pay $3.00, where as a person travelling from Steeles / Sewells to say like Kipling / Lake Shore and pay $3.00. You implement zone fares, and that's how you make money too for private companies. You don't just necessarily cut service. For a private company to be successful, you don't just cut service (reduce spendings), you think of ways to increase revenue, and that's zone fare. Like charging $0.20 per km or something like that. If you think that's too expensive, then take GO Transit, it's about the same price. Short-ride customers shouldn't be subsidizing long-ride customers. And you get a lot of money from that.

If you are going to implement fare by distance then you better improve cross town services otherwise you make people pay a lot more for the same crappy service. For example, the trip you outlined above Steeles / Sewells to Kipling / Lake Shore is about 50 km, paying 20 cents a km would mean $10 each way. So that is increase the daily commute from $6 to $20 and unless you introduce a lot of express routes or build a lot of subways people will switch to cars in response to a 333% in the cost of their daily commute.

[skyfirenet]

(I don't see given with our current technology we still need someone to sit in a station to collect the fares. In 2011, you make a machine that counts your fare. Not by some random person.)...

So who will pay for the development of said machine and the costs associated with its implementation; including the necessary support infrastructure and training? It's easy to say that a system will save money and will be "better" when you only look at the end points of the system development life cycle and refuse to consider anything other than a perfect implementation. There is no such thing as a true "off the shelf"/"turnkey" product and ignoring the costs of the SDLC is something that the private sector doesn't do.

[smallspy]

.....but you got to realize that we're assuming it's running in monopoly......

Nice try. Transit doesn't compete against itself, it competes against other modes.

Dan

[The Canadian Roadgeek]

Hi there drivers! When commenting, please take in perspectives from the average citizen not YOU as a driver and the TTC as a public transit system cause you want to keep your job or your salary.

I've been writing this for 12 hours, on and off. Sorry for not able to get to any comments beyond "skyfirenet". Will get to that tomorrow. Been getting all worked up, frustrated, and mad from all of this keep it public nonsense. And tired too. Have fun reading! (please forgive grammar errors as at this point I'm spending hours and hours writing this...)

There will always be staff at the stations... insurance costs would go through the roof if the TTC did not staff it's stations. And just about every city I've been to with automated fare collection still had staff on duty at the stations... their duties were just modified to include helping people with the machines and keeping general order in the stations. If you go to (privatized) London, for example, they have several staff members in their stations despite the presence of automated fare collection.

I didn't say NOT staff a station. I doubt any transit system, private or not, throughout the world, has a non-staffed station. I said one per station.

Evidently not, since the TTC tries all the time and comes up short. It's not enough that the person is qualified, the person also has to want the job... if there are more qualified people out there, they aren't applying. Likely because they see the BS that we go through on a daily basis and don't think it's worth the salary we make (and now you know why we're paid what we are). I know of one person in the training class behind me that dropped out of the training program because she could make more money with less stress if she stuck to trucking.

List out the BS please. You guys are just driving and handing out transfers, how hard could it be? A taxi driver could be in more BS than you guys, getting their vehicle ticketed while parking for lunch, insulted by their passengers, etc. And you say driving a bus is BS? You guys have way more security than a taxi driver, you have security cameras, other people on the bus as witness, etc. And you guys have way more time to take breaks. Trucking and bus driving is different. Trucking is intercity, longer working hours, I don't see how it's less stress. And like YRTteen or now Articulated says 5 posts under, it's basing on YOUR observations, so YOUR argument is loose (I'm just quoting other public transit operators.)

As is the case with many private companies. That's bad management... the presence of which isn't dependent on whether an organization is private or public.

No, like you guys said, private companies cut corners. They don't hire 3 people to photocopy. They hire 1. One and only. They have better management since they have to work things out efficiently, they don't have an endless supply of money like the government is drawing from us taxpayers.

Which they are perfectly allowed to do if they're running early (how else should they kill the time). And that is true of every transit authority, public or private. I've seen YRT drivers do the same thing... they just don't get the media attention because nobody cares about transit in York Region.

And as a Hong Kong advertisement goes, "This is not the way of customer service these days." (and this ad from the 2000s). If you're early, drive slower, or park on the side of the street but never leave your vehicles unattended. An entire school of high school kids could easily have got on the bus for free just cause the driver is out of the bus. This should be changed in Canadian Transits. I'm not saying YRT is out of this either. On Route 90, drivers love to stop at Don Mills / Steeles to buy coffee/doughnut. My advice, buy your snacks or whatever in Don Mills Station, when your route is not operating. There's a snack store inside the station. I'm not saying no to eating, just don't buy it on your route.

But you see this happening more frequently on TTC routes than YRT routes, just saying.

And this is not true for the 3 major bus companies and the railway company. It says clearly that they're not allowed doing that. If they had done that, it'll be on the news the next day, guaranteed.

So if I hire a private contractor to refurbish my bathroom, then the contractor will be willing to pay a portion of it?

In this case you're HIRING a contractor. In privatizing case, you're LEASING or SELLING your system to a private company. It's the company's property (transit infrastructure), the company should be paying for it. Whereas your bathroom is YOUR property, the contractor takes no ownership in that. It's not like the contractor gets to use your bathroom everyday after it's done refurbishing (I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate that anyways).

And that's different from how they currently do things how, exactly?

The private company pays a portion there. Whereas in a government scheme, it's all taxpayers' money. Say like a 1-billion dollar project, and the private company takes 200 million and the government takes 800 million, 800 million comes from the residents of the city, and 200 million comes from the passengers (who should really be paying for it since they're using it). In a government scheme of things, all 1,000 million comes from the taxpayers. And not everyone uses transit.

For the 684094324021938651093856314095816734509138457610986713425987th time... only collectors working massive amounts of overtime make that salary. Most collectors don't make nearly that amount... and the TTC is saving money by having a collector working overtime vs hiring a whole new collector.

And being responsible for an entire subway station and everything in it as well as a rather large cash float is not the same as being a cashier at Wal-Mart. A manager at Wal-Mart, maybe.

For the ∞th (or yours put it in a more intelligent way 6.84 E 59 th, or 6.84 x 10^59) time, there will be no more collectors in the station. It'd be a station manager who manages the entire subway station, and yes, equivalent to a manager at Wal-Mart.

Nor will there be with competition. When the New York subway system was private you had two companies competing with each other by building parallel lines very close to each other while the city ended up having to build lines to service new areas the private companies didn't see as profitable, despite there being competition.

It's up to the government to set the terms when selling the transit system, you can always put a note in the contract that there must be accessible public transits to all parts of the city (~300 m walking distance), or something like that. If you have competition, it's also best for it to set up the system for different areas of the city as their focus. Like in Hong Kong KMB is focused in Kowloon, while connecting passengers to Hong Kong Island, etc.

Ummm... the 401? And it's even free!

Ummm... why do you think the 407 was built in the first place? Cause it takes double the time to travel the same distance on the 401 than 407. It's the traffic congestion that makes people choose 407. If you have another empty freeway with cheaper cost, people will flee to it.

So private buses will run on apple juice then?

Again, you're missing the point here. The reason why they charge costs on little things in airline is because of the fuel cost. Why did TTC increase their fare? For the same reason, fuel cost (not to mention YOUR salaries) go up. By the way, this was rebutting on the point someone made earlier saying that private companies charges little costs like this.

And there are plenty of public agencies that charge zone fares, so that has nothing to do with being private either. I would've thought you'd have realized that, what with mentioning GO in that paragraph, but you know what they say about assuming things...

And you're missing the point again... I'm saying the current way of fare in TTC does not work. It has NOTHING to do with privatization. It was a side-note. And of course I know GO Transit is implementing zone fares. It's time for the TTC to do the same thing as well.

Really? You'll find "responding to emergencies accordingly" aside "collect fares" and "balance a cash and ticket float" in collectors' job descriptions. You obviously haven't been around during emergencies.

How do you expect me to find the "responding to emergencies" reliable when they're trying to collect fares or busy talking with others or sleeping (even though the man is dead now...)?

That's all well and good, however there is not a Station Manager for each station. If a station manager from, say, King were required to respond to an issue involving a northbound train, say, an escalating fight on the northbound platform at Queen, he or she would have no choice but to walk the distance between the stations because it would not be safe for the train to enter the platform at Queen.

Why would we not have a station manager for Queen Station? Anyways, I was thinking a station manager for each station. And walking from King to Queen is not a big deal either. If you run, it's going to be in minutes.

What do you suggest for people requiring directions? Help with turnstiles? Collectors are a very legible, accessible TTC employee, based entirely on the virtue that they are always located in the same place. Station Managers, on the other hand, could be anywhere in the station (or outside, or at another station) and therefore inaccessible to those requiring immediate assistance.

That'll be the station managers' job. Help with turnstiles? Wow, it's either the customers are not very intelligent or there's something wrong with the design of the turnstile. Personally, I don't like the exit turnstile. Make them the entrance turnstile-type please. And why would the manager be outside or at another station. They belong INSIDE the station.

And isn't your overall problem with people being overpaid? Newsflash for you: Station Managers are supervisors and therefore make more money than do collectors and operators.

My overall problem was overpaid and the overall service quality. Station managers aren't really supervisors. They're not supervising everyone. It's just a more intelligent title that handles everything , like you suggest, collectors already do. Therefore, they are not supervisors. And besides, if we're hiring a new group of station manager, that'll save a lot of money, as the starting wage is fairly low.

Please, for the sanity of everyone here, really reconsider your arguments from a more holistic approach. Take a look at this map. Right now your arguments are purely from a neo-liberal economist perspective, which, as you can see, pays no regard whatsoever to socio-economic well-being, equality or the environment. Take a look at the issue from a wider, more holistic view and you will see just how flawed your argument is.

For anyone having trouble understanding that map, read this, the map is from page 4.

At one point, taking public transit is considered as communism, cause it's owned by the public and the government, and people (still to this date) dislikes (I'm avoiding the word "hate") communisms to this day. And why are you guys trying to bring communism to us when we don't want it? It's for a very selfish reason: To keep your job and your salary and your ever happy life, when we as passengers spend 3 hours on a bus everyday. And in this case you're the one who's a neo-liberal economist. Virtually none of environmental concerns and you're not thinking for the greater-good, but rather more for you and your fellow 6,000 TTC operators. Who's behind the keepttcpublic campaign, the TTC. Want me convinced? Get a non-affiliate group with the TTC to promote this from a non-TTC standpoint, and not some drivers wanting to defend their job. Quit your job before saying anyone as a neo-liberal economist. I'm sorry for being blunt but this is the way it is. CPTDB is overpopulated with drivers, who are trying to show the negative side of privatization (and the examples are always York Region, Vancouver, London, Auckland, Melbourne. Any new ideas? Why not consider the positive side?). You realize that once TTC is privatized, you'll lose your job.

If I'm a neo-liberal economist, I wouldn't have pushed public transit ahead. Public transit is caring for the environment, and neo-liberal economist puts me at virtually none of environmental concerns. And you're not considering the equality too. Your value of equality on that graph is exceptionally low, because you're standing at TTC employees' standpoint, of about ~6,000 people. But most of Torontonians (~1 mil), I believe, will stand making TTC better. And how can we make it better? Privatizing. Tell me how the government is going to fund us all a new line. All of the 3 government levels (maybe not the federal, but...) are in deficit. Let's share the cost with a company, let them take the revenue, and we as Torontonians enjoy better transit service.

And you know how behind TTC is? No automated station announcement before ~2005 on subway trains and before ~November 2007 on buses. In the 2000s, our TTC system seemed to be stuck in the 1970s. Like your "Keep TTC public" video, TTC was a leader in the 1970s, but you stopped improving, much with government service, and now it's 40 years behind, and counting.

(To be continued... next part)

[general682002]

Hi there drivers! When commenting, please take in perspectives from the average citizen not YOU as a driver and the TTC as a public transit system cause you want to keep your job or your salary.

I've been writing this for 12 hours, on and off. Sorry for not able to get to any comments beyond "skyfirenet". Will get to that tomorrow. Been getting all worked up, frustrated, and mad from all of this keep it public nonsense. And tired too. Have fun reading! (please forgive grammar errors as at this point I'm spending hours and hours writing this...)

And as a Hong Kong advertisement goes, "This is not the way of customer service these days." (and this ad from the 2000s). If you're early, drive slower, or park on the side of the street but never leave your vehicles unattended. An entire school of high school kids could easily have got on the bus for free just cause the driver is out of the bus. This should be changed in Canadian Transits. I'm not saying YRT is out of this either. On Route 90, drivers love to stop at Don Mills / Steeles to buy coffee/doughnut. My advice, buy your snacks or whatever in Don Mills Station, when your route is not operating. There's a snack store inside the station. I'm not saying no to eating, just don't buy it on your route.

But you see this happening more frequently on TTC routes than YRT routes, just saying.

(To be continued... next part)

They know what they say, they know the inside-out of the industries!

Ok, have you been standing on Don Mills/Steeles to see a driver went out to grab snacks? They have too much trip time on this board period!

Sucks to be you, I can see you really want to reply until you win this thread!

[The Canadian Roadgeek]

Now for PART 2

Collectors are stationed at each station in order to provide assistance to passengers. There have been many many times where I've walked past the collector booth and he's helping someone who is lost find their way on the system, or even tourists/non-locals lost in the area. It's not possible to provide this type of service using a plain map (even an interactive one, which I'm sure someone like you would flag as "expensive" and "not worth it").

If you provide better announcements on board of the subway trains, like transferring directions, much of this would be avoided. Most people get lost on bus routes anyways, rather than on the subway. And even so, it is the job of any TTC employee or any Torontonians to help out these tourists/non-locals. It's not a "job" specifically directed to collectors.

Fare evasion is a common thing as you attempted to do (but technically you didn't, so again your argument is rather useless). Collectors are usually too busy helping people by paying fares, assisting in direction-finding and other station business to monitor 8 turnstyles other than the one they're assigned to. Plus, if they hop out of their booth to deal with an evader, who's to say that the evader will not physically retaliate? It's a safety issue and they won't be covered under workplace safety if they leave their booth.

And that's why I emphasize the point with no paper fare, all electronic fare even for one-rides. The job of the turnstile is to check the tickets, not the collectors. Collectors are human and they can't process as much as a turnstile does. With them not having to collect the fares (which then a collector in fact becomes what I suggested as "station managers"), can have more time doing other things, like helping out (seems like all of you are fascinated with collectors helping the tourists), etc.

Presto or open payment system on the TTC will work identically to a Metropass or token today - you walk to a turnstyle, use your card and unlock the turnstyle. You will still need a collector to do all the personal tasks as mentioned above.

I don't know what is the point behind a metropass or token. We spend like millions and millions of dollars making them every month, while we can invest that on something more constructive. By eliminating the collector, I mean implement a "station manager", i.e. not someone who sits around and sleeps or talks to anyone about their newborn infants. They'll be walking around and doing what you suggested collectors would do, helping others. But of course the salary would be lower, since now the job is more like patrolling.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, charging cars is political suicide. Sure it may help raise money but people will still find ways around it. You also need a great transportation system to make it possible for drivers to use before they can make the switch. If you took every driver on the DVP during rush hour and moved them to transit you'd probably fill a subway line to capacity. The only alternative line in the area (Yonge) is already at capacity. Don't tell me the tolls you make from charging drivers will go towards building a replacement subway line - because you need the subway line in place already to make it feasible to charge tolls.

I know for a fact that many people are driving because the TTC isn't attractive. We need marketing strategies, and with the government, the government won't be doing that. Privatizing it, the company will rebrand it, making it a more attractive way to go. There are still a lot of myths, especially to newcomers of Canada, or people who has never taken the TTC before, that TTC is not the best way to go with.

And you're exactly right. The government is refusing to do anything about building new subway lines, or charging cars. Either way they're committing political suicide, just that charging cars lead to a faster death. Traffic problems aren't solved. We can't constantly widen roads. What next? The-401 to 30 lanes from the current 22 lanes? And then what? 40 lanes? We don't have room for that, and unless you can fix it without implementing public transit, public transit is the only way to go. And how to get public transit to work? Privatizing.

And what about a subway line along Don Mills? Nope, turned down due to the lack of funding. But in a private companies standpoint, it fills the subway line to capacity, hmm, with further research, it might be profitable, and therefore on it builds. Less burden on taxpayers too since a portion of the cost is covered by the company (which is fund generated by the users anyways).

Most stations on the TTC network only have one collector. During rush hours and other busy times other stations may have a second manning the crash gate, but for the majority of the time at the majority of stations it's 1 collector period. Some very busy stations (Dundas, Queen, Union for example) have two at all times, partially because of the setup of the station, but also because they have a lot of tourists and non-locals that need assistance using the system - and as I mentioned earlier again, that type of service cannot be provided using any automatic setup.

If you bring up proper signage and proper announcements, I'm sure that'll reduce a lot of confusion from the tourist. And most of the time the collector doesn't care about the tourists / non-locals. For one, they're impatient, and for two, they have collecting stupid paper fares to deal with and a long line to "solve". With an automatic setup, the "locals" don't really have to be served, you focus on the tourists / non-locals.

Photocopying example - you're using anecdotal evidence again. Give us some hard facts or more than "I saw once" information to make your arguments hold water. Frankly yours are currently not even holding air effectively.

It's not like you're providing any hard facts either. Repeatedly using the same examples is not holding much water either, in fact, it's leaking. And everyone can see that this is from a perspective of a TTC operator trying to save their job and continue with this BS (sorry for using this word, but no other word choices can be better than this) with the current transit system, as they're hogging too much resources. Even city councillors are willing to deduct their salaries. Rob Ford didn't take extra off the city council as a councillor. And they are responsible for all the intelligent work. You guys are just doing simple tasks (sure you do run into problems, but name a job out there with no problems at all?), and you are getting paid way more than some of the most important jobs out there, plus the benefits over it, and Giambrone claiming so much money off the government. If you add up all these throughout the years, do you think we'll save enough to at least install platform screen doors along the entire Sheppard Line? Or modernize Finch, Union, Kennedy stations? And we Torontonians had enough of this. We don't want to travel back in time every time we're on the TTC. We had enough of lies (and that includes the motto / tagline of TTC "Take the Rocket". A joke that I always make, if TTC is the rocket, then it'll take me a whole year to get to the moon). Take a look at Karen Stintz, with 4 assistants, and those 4 assistants have many more assistants. It's like a small company for one personnel. But this is how government structure works. Jobs overlapping in objectives. Assistants divide into administrative, constituency, and executive x2. Is it really necessary? Like you said private companies cut corners, and this is how they cut corners. No jobs overlapping, which also means saving money.

Drivers are humans (unless you wanted to replace them with robots and machines like you do with collectors?) and should most certainly be allowed to take breaks when they physically need to. I challenge you to work an office job or any other type of job where you are not allowed to take breaks to get food at any time during the day. Many drivers are also using this time to go to the bathroom, unless you would prefer the driver to piss themselves in the seat then put the bus out of service (leaving you on the curb for the next one) because of a biohazard on the bus. Getting coffees is also advantageous for you, as it will help the driver stay awake and the chance of falling asleep and crashing the bus with you sustaining injuries from it is decreased.

This is not justified at all. You take a piss or do whatever you want to do, eat, drink, rest, laugh, sleep, whatever, during your break, at the terminus of the route, not in the middle of it. This is showing how the TTC operators are not professional. Professional workers don't leave their spots while on duty unless absolute emergency. You don't need to get coffee every run of the route. You get your coffee, get a whole jug of it, and put it on your bus, and drink from it when necessary, but not hopping off the bus in the middle of operation to get coffee. As for staying awake, that's for the supervisor to plan out the schedule for each and every driver, ensuring the driver has an adequate number of working and resting hours. From what you're saying, it's like TTC drivers don't get breaks. Then that's poor management. Hmm, maybe privatizing it and implementing a better human resource department will do the job.

We're not paying $100,000 a year to a fare collector. Only collectors who work huge amounts of overtime end up making anywhere near that amount, and frankly if you devote something outrageous like 12 hours a day 6 days a week to your job then you deserve to get paid well for it.

A personal care worker who works for 7 days a week and 12 hours a day, and does not have time with his family, does not get as a high a salary as a TTC operator does. And a TTC collector deals with healthy people and fares, while a care worker deals with excrements from dirty and grumpy patients. Who deserves more do you think?

I'll let other respondents get their say in collector wages as well as comparisons to cashiers.

And cashiers do point out where stuff might be placed, just like a TTC collector who points out the directions, etc.

When GO Transit introduced bus service to a number of far-out communities like Niagara Falls, Kitchener/Waterloo and Peterborough, the private companies like Greyhound and Coach Canada cried foul when another competitor entered the field. Their response was to massively decrease service to these areas to only operate the most profitable trips. The result was no big net gain to transportation along the corridor, as the additional trips provided by GO ended up being cancelled out by the massive decreases by the private carriers. Competition does not mean better results.

Well, the consumers have choices of which transport system to take. In this case, GO Transit wins because it offers better fare and better connections. Greyhound and Coach simply withdraws due to the inability to compete. It's the result of the competition. More connections (and better connections) to existent GO Transit services is why GO Transit won. The net gain in transportation of the corridor is better connection (and I suspect the fares are even more appealing for GO Transit).

Smart cards are not needed to implement fare zones. GO Transit has been doing it for decades without a fare card. If you start charging long-haul commuters more for their trip, they'll soon find out it's less worthwhile to make their trips on transit instead of by car and they'll stop. That'll just make a decrease in the ridership especially in your coveted "long-distance" commuter. You also lose money on the short distance trippers too, don't forget. It's a huge balancing game and you haven't taken any in-depth look at it at all. Stop being an armchair critic and go out into the real world to see what it's all about.

Without a smart card, fare zones don't really work. It's a hotbed for fare evasion. And so I've paid the fare from Union Station to Agincourt Station, but no one will know if I get off at Lincolnville Station. With a smart card, I tap to get on at Union Station, and tap to get off at Lincolnville Station. If you don't tap when you get off, it'll charge you for the maximum fare for the line to make it fair (that's what I propose, and this is aside)...

Gas prices are staying firm at 1.14 cents/L recently. It'll soon go up even higher, and motorists would find taking the public transit is more desirable. And don't forget the traffic headache. Long distance commuters are invited to take the express routes (like GO Transit), which makes their fare a lot cheaper. You wouldn't expect someone to travel some 20-30 odd stations from McCowan RT Station to Kipling Station right? It's a matter of implementing better services for long-distance rider and make it more appealing. I know it's a balancing game, and $0.20 was an arbitrary value to illustrate my argument. It would require me to write a long report to justify the cost / km if I were to determine one. I've seen zone fares in many places, I've been out to the real world and see zone fare in action. On the other hand, you might be the one who hasn't been seeing how sophisticated / technologically advanced / glorious a transit system can be in 2011. Try some European or Chinese or Japanese transit systems. Toronto is behind at least 40 years with that scale. Even some videos of Hong Kong MTR in 1970s look way better than some of the sketchy TTC stations we have today. I'm sorry to say, but you and 6,000 other employees are holding Toronto back, are holding TTC back, are holding 2.6 million people back, are holding our time. You know how much time you waste from us everyday? Sorry, getting off topic.

If you are going to implement fare by distance then you better improve cross town services otherwise you make people pay a lot more for the same crappy service. For example, the trip you outlined above Steeles / Sewells to Kipling / Lake Shore is about 50 km, paying 20 cents a km would mean $10 each way. So that is increase the daily commute from $6 to $20 and unless you introduce a lot of express routes or build a lot of subways people will switch to cars in response to a 333% in the cost of their daily commute.

You know how long does it take to go from Steeles / Swelles to Kipling / Lake Shore? Check this: Google Transit Directions, 2 hours and 39 minutes. Is $10 reasonable for a 2.5 hour ride? That's 5 hours to and back! I would totally say yes! It worths $20! And who would do that everyday anyways? I spend 1.5 hours, and that's a headache.

We need crosstown services, yes, I agree that with you, in fact, discounts can be offered on specially marked crosstown services, as many zone-fare transit agencies have adopted (like over a number of zones, you get a discount).

Parts 3 and 4+ tomorrow.

[general682002]

Now for PART 2

This is not justified at all. You take a piss or do whatever you want to do, eat, drink, rest, laugh, sleep, whatever, during your break, at the terminus of the route, not in the middle of it. This is showing how the TTC operators are not professional. Professional workers don't leave their spots while on duty unless absolute emergency. You don't need to get coffee every run of the route. You get your coffee, get a whole jug of it, and put it on your bus, and drink from it when necessary, but not hopping off the bus in the middle of operation to get coffee. As for staying awake, that's for the supervisor to plan out the schedule for each and every driver, ensuring the driver has an adequate number of working and resting hours. From what you're saying, it's like TTC drivers don't get breaks. Then that's poor management. Hmm, maybe privatizing it and implementing a better human resource department will do the job.

Ok, any suggestion who makes the best thermal on the market so it doesn't get cold so easily??

You seem to loved so much on privatization, in fact you can thankfully the people in Las Vegas running by a dictator Veolia. I feel quite bad for drivers hate driving "The Strip" route, they have to deal with heavy loads of passengers and many juniors don't stay for long on their job! Not to mention the saddest wages I've ever heard, I won't do it cause I have a life!

[YRT-Guy]

Which they are perfectly allowed to do if they're running early (how else should they kill the time). And that is true of every transit authority, public or private. I've seen YRT drivers do the same thing... they just don't get the media attention because nobody cares about transit in York Region.

ha ha... i just did that tonight during my run... went into country style to get a drink. Bus was 1/4 full too. But guess what.. I was 2 minutes ahead of schedule and I told my passengers what I was doing.

This is not justified at all. You take a piss or do whatever you want to do, eat, drink, rest, laugh, sleep, whatever, during your break, at the terminus of the route, not in the middle of it.

Hmm.. ok.. I'll tell my bladder system to create a schedule to make sure it only wants to urinate during my layovers and breaks. Oh and of course, there happens to be a washroom at the end of every route too right? And it is justified, and guess who tells me so? The Regional Municipality of York. They have already said that they will NEVER deny drivers to use the washroom when they need to use it, regardless if they are +5 or -15.

[general682002]

Hmm.. ok.. I'll tell my bladder system to create a schedule to make sure it only wants to urinate during my layovers and breaks. Oh and of course, there happens to be a washroom at the end of every route too right? And it is justified, and guess who tells me so? The Regional Municipality of York. They have already said that they will NEVER deny drivers to use the washroom when they need to use it, regardless if they are +5 or -15.

Part of this is human rights!

[YRT-Guy]

As for staying awake, that's for the supervisor to plan out the schedule for each and every driver, ensuring the driver has an adequate number of working and resting hours. From what you're saying, it's like TTC drivers don't get breaks. Then that's poor management. Hmm, maybe privatizing it and implementing a better human resource department will do the job.

Ok... you try sitting in a drivers seat for 10hours or even more and see if you don't start feeling tired after even an hour. And go do a Google search for "sitting for long periods". It's recommended to get up walk about and stretch whenever possible. Here's a link to get you started: http://lifestyle.ca.msn.com/health-fitness...mentid=23293703. Notice this line near the end of the article: " they should try to interrupt sitting as often as possible,""

And I dare you to show me ONE office worker that works 5 hours or more straight. Without leaving their seat, getting coffee, chatting it up at the water cooler, going to the washroom, going out for a smoke, surfing the net, using twitter, etc.. I know for a fact it happens all the time, I used to work in an office (5 different ones to be exact). And just do any search on twitter, you'll see numerous people logging on from work, posting useless babble all day long when clearly they should be working.

Hi there drivers! When commenting, please take in perspectives from the average citizen not YOU as a driver and the TTC as a public transit system cause you want to keep your job or your salary.

Take a look around, it's not all drivers posting in this thread, I haven't gone through and counted but there are actually only a few TTC operator's that have posted.

But the reason they (as well as others) are posting against you is not because they are "trying to save their jobs". It's because transit employees have the knowledge of the "other side". We know what it's like to drive a bus, be behind the wheel of a large vehicle for 5, 8, 10, 12 hour shifts. We know what goes on behind the scenes. Not just the passenger on the bus getting pissed because the driver sat through 2 green lights. Or the passenger that only wants to get home in 20 minutes and not 22 so he gets pissed (no pun intended) when the driver urgently has to stop to use the washroom. Knowing and understanding both sides of something, provides that person with a better understanding of the full picture, and not just simply going by what that person thinks. Many posts are providing adequate details and examples for all your suggestions/thoughts, but you fail to take them in and understand them.

A personal care worker who works for 7 days a week and 12 hours a day, and does not have time with his family, does not get as a high a salary as a TTC operator does. And a TTC collector deals with healthy people and fares, while a care worker deals with excrements from dirty and grumpy patients. Who deserves more do you think?

I agree with you. They should get a higher wage than they are currently making. That's up to them to fight for a wage that is more appropriate to what they do. TTC has already taken care of their wages, it's time others try to do the same.

On the other hand, you might be the one who hasn't been seeing how sophisticated / technologically advanced / glorious a transit system can be in 2011. Try some European or Chinese or Japanese transit systems. Toronto is behind at least 40 years with that scale. Even some videos of Hong Kong MTR in 1970s look way better than some of the sketchy TTC stations we have today. I'm sorry to say, but you and 6,000 other employees are holding Toronto back, are holding TTC back, are holding 2.6 million people back, are holding our time. You know how much time you waste from us everyday? Sorry, getting off topic.

Didn't know it was up to the TTC drivers to create or modify a transit system?

And cashiers do point out where stuff might be placed, just like a TTC collector who points out the directions, etc.

A job description of Pointing things out don't dictate wages, many times it's the dangers of the job that create the higher wage. When is the last time a cashier at a McDonalds or Sobey's got held up at gunpoint? When's the last time that same cashier had to work on their own, underground, with a shitload of money next to them, and had to deal with crackheads, methheads, drunks and thugs?

You seem to loved so much on privatization, in fact you can thankfully the people in Las Vegas running by a dictator Veolia. I feel quite bad for drivers hate driving "The Strip" route, they have to deal with heavy loads of passengers and many juniors don't stay for long on their job! Not to mention the saddest wages I've ever heard, I won't do it cause I have a life!

I have no life and I STILL wouldn't do it!

[BBC 9197]

I think every transit user should to ask themselves (be honest) "do I blame all of my problems on the guy or gal driving me to work, home, school, etc. ?" If the answer to this question is "yes" then they should seek professional help, there are definitely many repressed psychological issues present.

If the government generates money by taxes, then where do private companies get their money? Why would anybody wish many people to live at or below the poverty line while a select few at the top make far more money then they know what to do with? Those people at the top don't care about service or the public they care about lining their pockets and they'll do whatever it takes to do so. Public transit is a pubic service provided by the people (government) for the People (citizens) because transportation is a very expensive industry and it is almost impossible make a profit without charging a very large premium. Look at the airlines, they're always in bankruptcy protection and receiving government bailouts (that's the citizens money too, and yes the guys at the top are still receiving their large salaries courtesy of the taxpayer for their job well done).

Maybe if Tim Horton's Transportation Ltd won the contract to run the TTC they could put a Tim Horton's donut shop at all subway stations so their drivers could get their coffee at the end of their route, plus the company could give them an employee discount to make up for the shitty wages their making. (One can only dream )

[ttcgeek]

I know for a fact that many people are driving because the TTC isn't attractive.

Ok. I have a question for you: How do you know that many people are driving because the TTC isn't "attractive"? What makes the TTC unattractive? How many people are driving because they refuse to take the TTC because of how unattractive it is? Do you have a link showing proof of this fact?

Are you sure you know the difference between fact and truth?

[GM Classic 6247]

It's up to the government to set the terms when selling the transit system, you can always put a note in the contract that there must be accessible public transits to all parts of the city (~300 m walking distance), or something like that. If you have competition, it's also best for it to set up the system for different areas of the city as their focus. Like in Hong Kong KMB is focused in Kowloon, while connecting passengers to Hong Kong Island, etc.

You can't use Hong Kong as an example for Toronto mainly due to how much more area you have to cover in Toronto and a much smaller population density particularly as you leave the downtown core meaning few routes will be profitable not even some of the major arterial roads would be worthwhile for instance Kennedy. Despite being a privatized system none of Hong Kong's transit companies aren't truly allowed to operate at a private level, government approval is required for pretty much every action they do including fare increases. A lot of the bigger bus companies in Hong Kong aren't able to service all routes either due to profitability, they require the public light buses to complement that but they won't work here either since they operate best when the population density is there to support them. Not to mention the fact that in Hong Kong only the green ones are regulated with schedules and printed fares, the red ones in all honesty operate the way the driver sees fit as they have no real regulation. If a taxi cab driver in the Toronto area has difficulty operating in much of the Toronto area due to the high fares caused by more how much more they have to drive putting strain on their vehicle and fuel bills, I don't see a minibus operating under better means. I like the Hong Kong transit system very much but its operation is vastly different from many areas and few cities are capable of emulating it as few cities aren't as tightly crammed like Hong Kong is. Japan is less cramped than Hong Kong is, its also privatized but...let's put it this way...I'm way too poor to use the JR system on a frequent basis, it makes me operating a car in Canada seem cheap.

[rocketdriver2019]

List out the BS please. You guys are just driving and handing out transfers, how hard could it be?

You're kidding, right? Please say you're kidding? Because that phrase has been the famous last words of many an employee who dropped out or failed the training program, or quit the job shortly after training because they thought exactly what you just wrote.

List out the BS? OK then...

Passengers yelling at you for being late

Passengers yelling at you because it snows

Passengers yelling at you because you had the audacity to ask them for a fare

Passengers refusing to pay the fare

Passengers trying to use invalid transfers

Passengers trying to use invalid passes

Passengers yelling at you for telling them to quit horsing around on the bus

Passengers assaulting you for all of the above

Passengers spitting on you for all of the above

Motorists cutting you off

Motorists yelling at you for being in their way

Homeless people asking for free rides

Homeless people spitting on you for denying said free ride (more gross than normal passenger spitting on you)

Passengers sitting up front and talking to you about how Chinese people shouldn't drive or some other racist inappropriate drivel you don't want to hear about.

Schedules that are impossible to follow

Workshifts that would be illegal in any other industry (like 9 hour shifts without any breaks)

Workshifts that are all over the place and prevent any semblance of a social life

Fires in the subway that you get to go to track level to put out

Other nonsense at track level in the subway that has you working within inches of a 600V electrified third rail

Sticking your head out of a moving train while guarding

Passengers spitting on you as you stick your head out of a moving train while guarding

Passengers smacking you with something as you stick your head out of a moving train while guarding

People jumping in front of your train while driving

People pretending to jump in front of your train while driving

Passengers fighting on your vehicle

Gangs fighting on your vehicle

People shooting each other on your vehicle

People stabbing each other on your vehicle

People shooting you

People stabbing you

People threatening to do either because you want them to pay a fare

Vehicles having mechanical problems

Passengers yelling at you because your vehicle has a mechanical problem

You having to fix the mechanical problem (in the case of streetcars and subways)

People having medical emergencies on your vehicle

Passengers yelling at you because you stopped for said medical emergency

People getting on your vehicle after having been assaulted crying for you to call the police

Passengers yelling at you because you stopped your vehicle to call the police for said passenger

Passengers yelling at you because you really needed to pee mid-route on a line that does not have washrooms at one or both ends

Passengers yelling at you because you're early at an intersection and held for time while staying on the vehicle

Passengers yelling at you because you're early at an intersection and held for time and left the vehicle to pick up a snack on your 9 hour shift without breaks

Passengers confused that you short turned despite announcing it several hundred times en route

Passengers yelling at you for being short turned

Passengers confused because you're driving the 29A and not the 29 and thus turned at Tycos

Passengers yelling at you for being a 29A and not a 29

Passengers assaulting you for being a 29A and not a 29

Drunk people horsing around on your vehicle

Drunk people puking on your vehicle

Drunk people assaulting you

Drunk people puking on you

Stringed out drug users on your vehicle

Stringed out drug users assaulting you

Stringed out drug users threatening to give you Hepatitis (anyone remember the Twoonie Lady?)

People *ahem* conceiving on your vehicle

Little kids screaming on your vehicle

Little kids jumping around your vehicle while the parent ignores them

Passengers yelling at you because little kids are jumping around your vehicle

Parent yelling at you because you told the little kids to sit down and behave

Parent assaulting you because you told the little kids to sit down and behave

I'll stop there only because I have to go to work soon. And this isn't just MY observations, this is what happens. Everyday. To many transit operators not only in Toronto but all over the world. Just thought I'd mention that in case you thought I don't talk to many other transit operators while at work everyday, as well as operators on other transit systems both over the internet and in my travels.

Now, do I mind the list of BS that I just mentioned? It's annoying, sure... but I am willing to put up with it because I think I'm paid appropriately to do so. Many people do not apply or drop out after getting in because they do not think the BS is worth the pay. And far fewer people will be willing to put up with it if our salary is decreased (myself included). THAT, my friend, is why we at the TTC and those at many (probably most) other transit systems all over the world are paid what we are.

If you still don't get it, then there's nothing more I can say... you won't get it until you apply to the TTC and experience all this for yourself.

[buschic]

Hopefully it is.

The TTC budget and fares can be controlled if labour costs are brought down to a reasonable level.

People shouldn't be pulling in $100+k for operating a bus. Get that back to a reasonable level, and it will make transit better and more accesible.

Stop that gravy train!!!!

do the math buddy, you'll quickly figure out that people getting 100K are doing massive amounts of OVERTIME! likely due to having no family,to go home to, or sacrificing home time to pay for disabled family members equipment.

no 40hr a week driver OR collector gets 100K, get with reality!

$100,000 for sitting in a Booth is even more ridiculous.

read my post, get your head outta the clouds man.

[MT0603]

Ok. I have a question for you: How do you know that many people are driving because the TTC isn't "attractive"? What makes the TTC unattractive? How many people are driving because they refuse to take the TTC because of how unattractive it is? Do you have a link showing proof of this fact?

Are you sure you know the difference between fact and truth?

I'm sorry, but you shot yourself in the foot with this post.

Look at it from a car driver's perspective, in their car they don't have to get out and wait in the cold or the extreme heat. They don't have to ride in a vehicle for half an hour when the heating or air conditioning isn't working. They don't have to stand or sit in uncomfortable seats, they don't have to get out and walk up a flight of stairs to try and fight their way into an already crowded subway car. They don't have to get up and transfer two or three times to get where they're going. They don't have to deal with unruly and rowdy passengers and in most cases driving is much much faster. If money isn't an issue to the person then there is little about the TTC that IS attractive.

For a lot of car drivers out there, the TTC is very unattractive and that's the reason there are so many car drivers out there. Transit simply isn't an attractive alternative for the average driver and one of the only things attractive about the TTC is that it's cheaper and that you don't have to do the driving, but in the end most people would rather drive.

For example my ma works at BMO at FCP, she once used to take the TTC, but became tired with the delays and struggling to get onto subway cars in the peak of rush. Then she started taking the GO train from Dixie GO and once again became frustrated by the constant delays and cancellations. Now she drives downtown from our Applewood Heights area and will never think of taking transit again to work. A few doors down from me are two TTC workers who both work at the Head Office and guess what, they choose to drive to work even though in their case the subway from Kipling could potentially be a bit faster, but they choose to drive because they don't have to deal with the hassles of taking transit.

Don't kid yourself, many of us on this board would rather drive than take the TTC (or any other transit system) for anything other than transit fanning because transit is simply unattractive compared to driving.

In the future I suggest you think before posting just for the sake of standing up for the TTC, just because you're a transit fan doesn't mean you have a moral obligation to stand up for any little thing that is said against the TTC. It'll help you not make an ass out yourself.

I like transit too, but I know when someone has a valid point.

Afterall, how many TTC worker's who live reasonably close to their division drive to work? I'm sure there are many.

[buschic]

Anyone else think there's something wrong when you make 1.5 times an engineer for driving a bus?

IF you think it is SO easy, than get yer ass down to TTC, GO, YRT, Veolia, DRT, Brampton Transit, Oakville Transit, HSR, OC Transpo, & get your ass in line for a job!!

or BETTER YET.

Talk with a few TTC ops, go ride the 300, go ride the 320 or the 35, 32, 54, 34, 54, 100, 108, go see where your ass will be as a rookie!

With Your attitude, your not going to last one day, your going to get your head punched in or worse, I DARE you to go shadow some of these drivers on these 'nastier' routes, I bet you dont got the cajones to do it!

I bet your just brave behind the keyboard, just like "Darren in T.O" is on various message boards & comment forums as well as on facebook.

I DARE you to go shadow some of our 30+ year drivers, ask them how their health is?

Do you even comprehend what that amount of overtime , trying to get to 100K does to your health?

people bitch if you even get outta your seat to go piss or get something to eat or drink, you dont eat balanced meals, you dont get to go pee every 2 hours, you usually dont want to drink the recomended 8 glasses of water a day, cause you dont want to piss the seat or worse, get written up or called in for simply going piss.

There is a very scary statistic from 30+ years of being an operator, its called death... heart attacks, strokes, diabetes, I know a lot of my friends that not even lasted 5 years post retirement.. Most of the people I grew up with, are DEAD, I hate going to funerals, have been to too many for my own liking, but they are my friends, they did usually well over 30+ years, then they never got to enjoy their retirement, I just had to say goodbye to a close friend that I've known 22 years, he just passed away at Sunnybrook, after 35 years HSR driving, he's gone, less than 4 years after retiring..

That much overtime also KILLS FAMILIES & breaks up marriages!

I don't trust the Sunshine list for completely accurate figures. Case example: The CEO of Southlake Hospital makes around $400,000 according to the Sunshine List. This is only his base salary however. Including all his bonuses, he pulls in over $750,000 per year. TTC workers do not get huge bonuses like this.

And you really gotta grow the fuck up if you think you can saunder into a transit fourm and proceed to insult every driver and worker by calling them lazy overpaid pigs. There are a significant number of operators in these fourms who know the workings of the TTC. The only reason your ass isn't banned yet IMO is cause it's almost too hilarious to read your idiotic spouting of incorrect and assumed facts and stupid ideologies that haven't existed for centuries.

Grow up and get lost.

You are so getting agreed with, this piece of douche really has some darn nerve, feeling brave behind the keyboard, stroking his ego, I've seen others get banned for less.

[CLRV4037]

At one point, taking public transit is considered as communism, cause it's owned by the public and the government, and people (still to this date) dislikes (I'm avoiding the word "hate") communisms to this day. And why are you guys trying to bring communism to us when we don't want it? It's for a very selfish reason: To keep your job and your salary and your ever happy life, when we as passengers spend 3 hours on a bus everyday. And in this case you're the one who's a neo-liberal economist.

If you consider public transit as being communist, then we should get rid of all public transit everywhere, except where communism prevails. Everyone can now drive a car, and if you can't afford it, ride a bike, or walk. Instead of being on a bus for 3 hours, you will now be in your car stuck in the now far worse traffic for 5 hours or walking for days to get to where you want to go.

What is wrong with trying to have a happy life? Isn't that what we are all trying to pursue, regardless of profession? Why do you think it is wrong for TTC drivers to try and lead a happy life, with a wage that barely allows them to own a house and raise a family in this city? Why do you insist on us making a wage that is near or at the poverty line? Do you think it is our personal choice to have you stuck in a bus for 3 hours? Do you think all 6000+ of us collaborate everyday and decide, "today we will keep every on the bus for 3.4 hours, all in favour?" Maybe we should ask all the drivers in this city why they insist on driving everywhere. The ones that cause all the congestion and trap the buses in it for 3 hours. Maybe we should ask THEM why they are being so selfish.

Well the public transit system is no good, they say! That's why the drivers don't ride it. Why is it no good? It's really hard to provide good transit service to suburbs, no matter how much the drivers are paid. The suburbs that governments have allowed developers to build so they can achieve maximum profits, such that all these drivers can buy their huge houses and live a lifestyle of excess, and complain how bad the traffic is. How could they be so selfish? They should stop building suburbs, and start building areas where its easy to provide decent public transit. Then we can force people into these more efficient areas, and they can lead a more sustainable lifestyle. I guess that's communism too. Shit...

If someone makes more money than you, your jealous. Instead of complaining about how much people are making, why don't you be proactive and get a job where you can make as much as we do. Or will you only be happy when everyone is making minimum wage and living in the streets, so that your company can rape from us much profit it can get?

I sleep easy at night knowing extreme right wing thinking mudflaps like yourself will only ever amount to just wasting your own time.

[buschic]

For the Keep TTC Public campaign site, they have York Region in as one of the most expensive fares in Canada, but when you look at the TTC, the fares don't really differ that much, less than a dollar difference (excluding cash fares...)

your kidding right? did you even for a moment even fathom the difference of SERVICE LEVELS? or the amount of people carried each day?

give your head a shake, please?

go ride YRT, go ride the lacklustre service, the inability to get much anywhere east or west of Yonge north of Major Mackenzie, go try living in Newmarket, THEN start bitching about the cost of TTC, you get an amazing amount of service & options for just $3..

I've got an even better idea, go to Hamilton, go see the freeloading that happens there, they charge $2.55, but anyone can go to a shoppers or walmart & buy a 4 prong cane for $50-60 & get unlimited free rides! better yet get a walker at walmart for $100 & you get even more pity, or do what the crackheads & druggies do, go steal wheelchairs & walkers from the hospitals or nursing homes.

oh btw, I grew up in Hamilton, the pathetic service & coverage HSR does, aint even worth $2.55..

btw, their drivers have NO cameras, no boom mikes, NO shields, there is no such thing as SC's either, & only 2-4 supervisors on at night for the WHOLE city.

You want to see a job that should have hazard pay? go be an HSR driver, the abuse is legendary. go shadow the poor drivers that drive the last 1 King, 2 Barton, & other dangerous routes.

They are not going to give the employees the same wage anymore. Face it, we're spending too much money on transit personnels... (I know a lot of you guys here are actually transit personnels, so you actually don't want it to privatize as that'll mean a decrease of money)... And they'll get rid of jobs that are completely obsolete and unnecessary. Really? A person to sit at those barrier-free access and collect money? We can cut those off. And no more ticket collectors, all automated. Buy a ticket off a machine and get in the station or simply use the Presto. That's not lowering service in terms of that, but instead, even better (for me at least, not having to deal with nosy collectors at the booths)... And competition is really the key here, it's a regulator that private companies don't cut as many corners as they can to maintain competitive advantages.

The government is not going to be doing much either, like they're going to spend $6 billion on the project (they keep pushing the deadlines back...)

Well for an adult oneride fare it's a mere $0.25 difference (between YRT and TTC), that's less than 10%.

dude, seriously, what are you on?

who is goign to help the disabled person access the machines? who is going to help the out of town blind person buy a day pass & scratch it for them, who is going to operate the vending machine for them? hmm.

A Collector is many things, the job goes WAY beyond what you think as 'just collecting fare'

- ambassador to the city for tourists.

- assistance for those who do not speak english & need top figure out how to get fare or somewhere.

- person to call for help in case of emergency.

- if the elevator is busted or accessible gate is not working, they can call for help, or get someone to come repair it, or help the disabled person find an alternative way to their destination.

- exact change is necessary for automated systems, Collectors can provide that.

- give direction in the area surrounding the station.

- a collector can assist a woman if she is being harassed, abused or followed.

- selling fare media, such as weekly passes for those who do not live in Toronto.

- assist in an emergency, evacuation.

& thats just a few things that I could think of in a span of 30 seconds.

[CLRV4037]

I'm sorry, but you shot yourself in the foot with this post.

Look at it from a car driver's perspective, in their car they don't have to get out and wait in the cold or the extreme heat. They don't have to ride in a vehicle for half an hour when the heating or air conditioning isn't working. They don't have to stand or sit in uncomfortable seats, they don't have to get out and walk up a flight of stairs to try and fight their way into an already crowded subway car. They don't have to get up and transfer two or three times to get where they're going. They don't have to deal with unruly and rowdy passengers and in most cases driving is much much faster. If money isn't an issue to the person then there is little about the TTC that IS attractive.

For a lot of car drivers out there, the TTC is very unattractive and that's the reason there are so many car drivers out there. Transit simply isn't an attractive alternative for the average driver and one of the only things attractive about the TTC is that it's cheaper and that you don't have to do the driving, but in the end most people would rather drive.

For example my ma works at BMO at FCP, she once used to take the TTC, but became tired with the delays and struggling to get onto subway cars in the peak of rush. Then she started taking the GO train from Dixie GO and once again became frustrated by the constant delays and cancellations. Now she drives downtown from our Applewood Heights area and will never think of taking transit again to work. A few doors down from me are two TTC workers who both work at the Head Office and guess what, they choose to drive to work even though in their case the subway from Kipling could potentially be a bit faster, but they choose to drive because they don't have to deal with the hassles of taking transit.

Don't kid yourself, many of us on this board would rather drive than take the TTC (or any other transit system) for anything other than transit fanning because transit is simply unattractive compared to driving.

In the future I suggest you think before posting just for the sake of standing up for the TTC, just because you're a transit fan doesn't mean you have a moral obligation to stand up for any little thing that is said against the TTC. It'll help you not make an ass out yourself.

I like transit too, but I know when someone has a valid point.

Afterall, how many TTC worker's who live reasonably close to their division drive to work? I'm sure there are many.

No offence, but this is the view by many who live in predominately suburban areas with inadequate transit service. A bus every 30 minutes is inadequate in my view. One of the many reasons why some people choose to live in the (real) city is because is so they don't have to deal with the inconvenience of owning and operating a car. I don't own a car, and I don't ever aspire to owning one to which I would drive around in the city with.

Also, and with no offence to your mom, why is it that when people choose not to take transit they cite "delays and cancellations" as a reason, yet I never hear them talk about construction delays and traffic encountered while driving. The delay from a traffic accident is about equal to any delay or cancellation experienced while taking transit.

I can see the appeal of a car during off peak hours, especially later at night when transit service is infrequent or non-existent. But if you are travelling to and from downtown without a lot of parcels, mainly in peak hours and during the day, there really is no excuse.

[D40-90]

Not to be rude. But if driving a bus is so bad with all the abuse, why don't some of you quit? Getting a job with TTC requires a lot of skill. Skill that should be able to get most of you a better job? The Fact that management drives to work should show how trash some of the service they are providing. Some if not most of the blame should go towards Mangement as well, no? They run the system. If the drivers have a problem with their workplace they should take that up with mangement and not towards passengers. Simple things like not collecting fares, instead of going on Work-to-Rule. Something where passengers aren't in the middle. I know some drivers did this back in 2006. Then they messed up by going on a wild cat strike, which led to passengers hating drivers.