Scarborough Subway Extension

[Xtrazsteve]

1 hour ago, Articulated said:

It's been said on numerous occasions and in a number of documents that the current T1 fleet is sufficient to run the Scarborough Subway Extension, but only if every second train turns back at Kennedy.

Assuming that the fleet is still functional by 2030. I mean opening date which could be 2040

[MK78]

8 hours ago, Articulated said:

It's been said on numerous occasions and in a number of documents that the current T1 fleet is sufficient to run the Scarborough Subway Extension, but only if every second train turns back at Kennedy.

Where did all the T1's go from Line 1 and Line 4? Have some been retired?

They seriously don't have enough to operate a 3 extra stations?

[5242]

24 minutes ago, MK78 said:

Where did all the T1's go from Line 1 and Line 4? Have some been retired?

They seriously don't have enough to operate a 3 extra stations?

only five have been retired, 3 due to accidents, 2 just retired from passenger service. the T1's that used to operate on lines 1 & 4 were moved to Greenwood from 2011 - 2014 to retire the H4s & H6s, they were spotted on Line 1 in recent years but that's only due to emergencies, other than that you wouldn't really see T1s on line 1. T1s stopped operating on Line 4 due to one person operation that started on line 4 on October 9, 2016.

[MK78]

1 hour ago, 5242 said:

only five have been retired, 3 due to accidents, 2 just retired from passenger service. the T1's that used to operate on lines 1 & 4 were moved to Greenwood from 2011 - 2014 to retire the H4s & H6s, they were spotted on Line 1 in recent years but that's only due to emergencies, other than that you wouldn't really see T1s on line 1. T1s stopped operating on Line 4 due to one person operation that started on line 4 on October 9, 2016.

Right you are, i knew they replaced the old H trains, but that still doesnt leave enough to run the service for the SSE, with a spare ratio?

I used to work on Greenwood ave and would pass by the greenwood yard every day, and there would be so many trains in the yard before the morning rush would run in. I can't fathom not having enough extra trains.

[Articulated]

1 hour ago, MK78 said:

Right you are, i knew they replaced the old H trains, but that still doesnt leave enough to run the service for the SSE, with a spare ratio?

I used to work on Greenwood ave and would pass by the greenwood yard every day, and there would be so many trains in the yard before the morning rush would run in. I can't fathom not having enough extra trains.

There are more T1 sets than what is required to run the current Line 2. That is why they could theoretically run a reduced service on the SSE without requiring new trainsets.

Originally, the plan was for some T1 sets (24 cars) to remain on Line 4, and probably some additional consists for Line 1, but implementation of full ATC on Line 1 and the decision to not retrofit T1s with the technology prevents their operation on either line. This is why all of the T1 sets ended up moving down to Line 2, there was nowhere else they could feasibly run in revenue service.

[smallspy]

10 hours ago, Articulated said:

There are more T1 sets than what is required to run the current Line 2. That is why they could theoretically run a reduced service on the SSE without requiring new trainsets.

Originally, the plan was for some T1 sets (24 cars) to remain on Line 4, and probably some additional consists for Line 1, but implementation of full ATC on Line 1 and the decision to not retrofit T1s with the technology prevents their operation on either line. This is why all of the T1 sets ended up moving down to Line 2, there was nowhere else they could feasibly run in revenue service.

Nitpick: It was not the installation of ATC/ATO equipment that precluded the T1s from operating on Sheppard, it was the installation of the OPTO equipment that did it in for them.

 

The ATC/ATO system does allow for non-equipped trains to operate it, but it requires the stepping down to a degraded mode of operation.

 

Dan

[Ed T.]

13 hours ago, MK78 said:

Where did all the T1's go from Line 1 and Line 4? Have some been retired?

They seriously don't have enough to operate a 3 extra stations?

As a Scarborough resident (according to your profile) I assume you know it's a long way from Eglinton/Kennedy to Sheppard/McCowan. My guess, without pulling out a ruler and walking the route, is that it's almost the same total distance as the entire North Yonge extension from Eglinton to Finch. At low rate operation, I would figure an extra 15 minutes each way, for 30 minutes round trip. If you want a four minute headway, you need, hmm, seven or eight extra trains.

They have 40 trains operating right now in morning peak. That's 240 individual cars. (And note that four minute headways may already be inadequate now, let alone if subway ridership picks up again.)

Add eight trains, that's another 48 cars, brings us to 286 cars in use. T1 fleet is 370 right now. That number can only drop over time. Reliability, ditto. What spare ratio do they need to keep 30+ year old (by the time the extension opens) fleet operating on schedule and without breakdowns?

https://cdn.ttc.ca/-/media/Project/TTC/DevProto/Documents/Home/Transparency-and-accountability/Service-Summary-2023-10-08.pdf?rev=9b5e095e8b8c4bd99d67ae82af9a3338

Feel free to do your own estimates and post here....

 

[Xtrazsteve]

4 hours ago, Ed T. said:

As a Scarborough resident (according to your profile) I assume you know it's a long way from Eglinton/Kennedy to Sheppard/McCowan. My guess, without pulling out a ruler and walking the route, is that it's almost the same total distance as the entire North Yonge extension from Eglinton to Finch. At low rate operation, I would figure an extra 15 minutes each way, for 30 minutes round trip. If you want a four minute headway, you need, hmm, seven or eight extra trains.

They have 40 trains operating right now in morning peak. That's 240 individual cars. (And note that four minute headways may already be inadequate now, let alone if subway ridership picks up again.)

Add eight trains, that's another 48 cars, brings us to 286 cars in use. T1 fleet is 370 right now. That number can only drop over time. Reliability, ditto. What spare ratio do they need to keep 30+ year old (by the time the extension opens) fleet operating on schedule and without breakdowns?

https://cdn.ttc.ca/-/media/Project/TTC/DevProto/Documents/Home/Transparency-and-accountability/Service-Summary-2023-10-08.pdf?rev=9b5e095e8b8c4bd99d67ae82af9a3338

Feel free to do your own estimates and post here....

 

There are 3 stations only so that would be faster, perhaps if they can average 40 km/h along the 8km, it'll take 12 minutes each way. Give it 5 minutes dwelling time at the terminal. Indeed it approaches 30 minutes round trip. Which isn't that much faster than the old 131E bus.

[Tom1122]

I know two t-1s were scrapped due to accident damage. Some T-1s were converted to work cars.

[81-717]

18 hours ago, 5242 said:

only five have been retired, 3 due to accidents, 2 just retired from passenger service.

34 minutes ago, Tom1122 said:

I know two t-1s were scrapped due to accident damage. Some T-1s were converted to work cars.

As per wiki, 5184/5185 were involved in the 2008 accident along with 5326/5327, with 5185 and 5326 being irreparably damaged, and 5327 being renumbered to 5185 2.0 and paired with 5184. Both of those were subsequently converted into work units in 2018.

So that means only 4 cars in total have been removed from passenger service, all 4 being the ones involved in the 2008 accident. 2 retired & scrapped due to accident(s) (what's the 3rd one @5242?) and only 2 converted into workcars so far (I thought there were more)?

[T3G]

There was a plan to convert as many as six pairs I believe, but it hasn't been made good on.

[5242]

41 minutes ago, 81-717 said:

As per wiki, 5184/5185 were involved in the 2008 accident along with 5326/5327, with 5185 and 5326 being irreparably damaged, and 5327 being renumbered to 5185 2.0 and paired with 5184. Both of those were subsequently converted into work units in 2018.

So that means only 4 cars in total have been removed from passenger service, all 4 being the ones involved in the 2008 accident. 2 retired & scrapped due to accident(s) (what's the 3rd one @5242?) and only 2 converted into workcars so far (I thought there were more)?

The 3 that were involved were the original 5185, 5326 & 5327, during the accident 5184 was unharmed. 

[81-717]

4 hours ago, 5242 said:

The 3 that were involved were the original 5185, 5326 & 5327, during the accident 5184 was unharmed. 

Right, I didn't realize 5327 was also damaged, but since it was repaired and returned to service until 2018, I wouldn't count it twice (as being both retired due to the accident, and retired for work car conversion), since it was returned to service for a few more years after the accident.

4 hours ago, T3G said:

There was a plan to convert as many as six pairs I believe, but it hasn't been made good on.

Right, I was thinking the plan was to convert around 6–8 cars (not pairs), but wasn't sure. Was the intent to replace all remaining H4 work cars (speaking of which, out of all H4s retained for work car conversion, have any been scrapped yet, or are all of them still in use/storage)?

11 hours ago, smallspy said:

Nitpick: It was not the installation of ATC/ATO equipment that precluded the T1s from operating on Sheppard, it was the installation of the OPTO equipment that did it in for them.

 

The ATC/ATO system does allow for non-equipped trains to operate it, but it requires the stepping down to a degraded mode of operation.

 

Dan

I thought ATC and OPTO were meant to go hand-in-hand, since ATC was meant to reduce the train crew from 2 to 1 (since TTC decided against 0), with the 1 crew member in charge of guarding the doors and taking over operation of the train only if needed? If line 4 is OPTO but without ATC, does that mean the 1 crew member is both the operator and door guard (as is done in some European systems)? If so, what prevents doing the same on T1s?

[smallspy]

16 hours ago, 81-717 said:

I thought ATC and OPTO were meant to go hand-in-hand, since ATC was meant to reduce the train crew from 2 to 1 (since TTC decided against 0), with the 1 crew member in charge of guarding the doors and taking over operation of the train only if needed? If line 4 is OPTO but without ATC, does that mean the 1 crew member is both the operator and door guard (as is done in some European systems)? If so, what prevents doing the same on T1s?

The ATC/ATO and OPTO systems are two completely independent systems that don't interact with each other.

 

It is not clear to me that the ATO system onboard the trains does require that only the front cab is used. It does require that a cab be active for its use, but it seems to be direction agnostic. The OPTO system, on the other hand, only works in the front cab of each train.

 

As for the T1s, there is a lot of train-side equipment required for the OPTO system. There simply wasn't enough room to mount it all without major modifications to each piece of rolling stock, which would have greatly increased the cost.

 

Dan

[Turtle]

44 minutes ago, smallspy said:

The ATC/ATO and OPTO systems are two completely independent systems that don't interact with each other.

 

It is not clear to me that the ATO system onboard the trains does require that only the front cab is used. It does require that a cab be active for its use, but it seems to be direction agnostic. The OPTO system, on the other hand, only works in the front cab of each train.

 

As for the T1s, there is a lot of train-side equipment required for the OPTO system. There simply wasn't enough room to mount it all without major modifications to each piece of rolling stock, which would have greatly increased the cost.

 

Dan

 

OPTO and ATC are two independent systems. I can't speak for OPTO on line 1, but I'm assuming it is a similar system/vendor as was used on line 4. i.e a huge unreliable interference ridden "wifi" pos that they decided to use. I don't see delays/problems as a passenger on line 1 like they had at first on line 4, so maybe they have worked out the issues since then, or maybe the ops have accepted the glitches even though they are responsible for safety even though the glitches in the video feed hide important information the op could use to react to a safety critical situation.

 

Get rid of the guard with unreliable tech, but can't complain about the unreliable tech when a lot of guards weren't actually doing their jobs properly in the first place.

 

As far as your (Dan's)  uncertainty about the ATC system and which active cab is used, front cab used for normal operations. There isn't really anything they implemented in the system to allow operation from another cab except in exceptional circumstances (disablements). Actually, they haven't set anything up for atc operation from another cab other than the forward one, disablements actually require bypassing or disabling the ATC system altogether.

 

They have it set up for reversing the trains a short distance in certain cases, but for the most part forward operation from the lead car. The fun part about reversing a single op train is that it doesn't happen, the train has to be driven from the trailing car with an op present in the cab. So the single op has to take the 500' walk of shame through a crowded train.

[Kumiko Oumae]

And there she goes. Strabag has cut the sanctioned Russian's stake to 24.1%. John Tory asked to review the contract of the Scarborough Subway Extension back in 2022.

There's no fear to worry.