ETS Electric Bus testing

[M. Parsons]

And the decision on electric buses..... was.... postponed (with a few other items) until December 8th.

[MAX BRT]

15 hours ago, M. Parsons said:

And the decision on electric buses..... was.... postponed (with a few other items) until December 8th.

Any idea what that means?

[M. Parsons]

Looks like a public hearing for that and other budget items.

So far there isn't a agenda for that hearing as the date seemingly was only set yesterday.

The media has been quiet on the electric buses so far, other than reporting the report from June, and the recent pieces before and after the Council meeting, which was essentially a summary of the report to council. So far no one in the media is speaking for or against them. 

[Dane]

On 2016-11-30 at 6:48 AM, MAX BRT said:

Any idea what that means?

I was just catching up on all this. The delay in vote is because an unrelated budget issue required further negotiation with the Province; the buses just happened to be apart of the same budget discussion so were tabled for the unrelated item to be resolved. Comments from Council all seem to tentatively favour ETS buying as many electric buses as possible within the defined budget. 

[M. Parsons]

Well, nothing concrete, no minutes from the meeting posted, and it sounds like parts of that meeting are back at council on Tuesday. Nothing in the media either. The best I could find was a "tweet".

 

BreannaKarstensSmith ‏@BreannaCTV  Dec 8

Councillors just passed a motion on the electric bus buy but we were all getting interviews so I missed the exact motion #yeg #yegcc

[Phillip]

No news yet?

[M. Parsons]

It took a long time for the minutes to get up on City's website. Minutes from meetings from December 12, 13, 14 were up before the 8th and 9th minutes, and only half the video recording was up when I first checked.

Quote

Moved B. Henderson - D. Iveson:
  
That the Electric Bus Purchase Capital Profile CM-66-3608 (Attachment 3), presented as Option C in the November 29, 2016, City Operations report CR_4133, be approved as part of the Supplementary Capital Budget Adjustment, with funding to be transferred from Capital Profile Bus Fleet Growth CM-66-3601.

City Ops.

In Favour:
Carried
 
 D. Iveson, B. Anderson, M. Banga, T. Caterina, 
B. Esslinger, E. Gibbons, B. Henderson, A. Knack, 
D. Loken, S. McKeen, M. Oshry, M. Walters
  
Opposed:
 M. Nickel

So, option C it is, buy more or less a minimum of 25 buses, but, try to get as many as 40 out of the funding. No real debate on the issue, not really sure why Nickel voted against it. It's also no wonder the media missed it. This part of the meeting was over and done with pretty quick.

[MAX BRT]

So judging from your Nov 27 post, the administration has been directed to purchase as many electric buses as $30.6 million can buy.

Proterra quotes roughly $700k USD per bus and BYD I believe charges less. Not sure what NFI might charge now, as prices have been steadily falling and this is a large order. Will be interesting to hear how many they can get.

[M. Parsons]

Tender issued:

 

- 40', 5 buses, 7 charging stations for 2018 delivery
- additional order of 20-25 buses and 35-40 charging stations in 2018 if initial phase successful
- requires central charging in bus parking area of depot, pantograph based overhead system preferred due to speed, ease and safety... minimal driver interaction (I guess, not physically having to plug a bus in vs. flipping a switching to connect to the overhead charger). I gather that not offering in depot pantograph charging could be a deal breaker as far as the evaluation goes. 

At this point it seems ETS isn't planning to install on street chargers, but, if the buses are pantograph recharging, that possibility at least exists for the future.
- operating range at full GVWR an auxiliary loads on a CBD driving cycle will be a minimum of 250 km with the battery starting at 90% and ending at 15%

Despite pantograph charging strongly preferred, nothing about on street charging.

[MAX BRT]

11 hours ago, M. Parsons said:

Tender issued:

 

- 40', 5 buses, 7 charging stations for 2018 delivery

- additional order of 20-25 buses and 35-40 charging stations in 2018 if initial phase successful

- requires central charging in bus parking area of depot, pantograph based overhead system preferred due to speed, ease and safety... minimal driver interaction (I guess, not physically having to plug a bus in vs. flipping a switching to connect to the overhead charger). I gather that not offering in depot pantograph charging could be a deal breaker as far as the evaluation goes. 

At this point it seems ETS isn't planning to install on street chargers, but, if the buses are pantograph recharging, that possibility at least exists for the future.

- operating range at full GVWR an auxiliary loads on a CBD driving cycle will be a minimum of 250 km with the battery starting at 90% and ending at 15%

Despite pantograph charging strongly preferred, nothing about on street charging.

Pantrograph recharging in depot (instead of at the route terminus, streetside) is new to me. Very interesting. ETS is definitely on the cutting edge here. Good for them, I think battery electric buses are ready.

I wonder if Proterra is set up to do business in Canada yet?

[TheAverageJoe]

On 7/1/2017 at 0:05 PM, MAX BRT said:

Pantrograph recharging in depot (instead of at the route terminus, streetside) is new to me. Very interesting. ETS is definitely on the cutting edge here. Good for them, I think battery electric buses are ready.

I wonder if Proterra is set up to do business in Canada yet?

Not yet, but that could change in the future. Looks like New Flyer and Nova will bid on this one

[MAX BRT]

8 hours ago, TheAverageJoe said:

Not yet, but that could change in the future. Looks like New Flyer and Nova will bid on this one

BYD too?

[TheAverageJoe]

1 hour ago, MAX BRT said:

BYD too?

Looks like they want fast charge. BYD is plug in

[M. Parsons]

2 hours ago, TheAverageJoe said:

Looks like they want fast charge. BYD is plug in

No, they don't want fast charge. They want depot charging with a pantograph. The specs for charging time are inline with BYD's plug in buses.

BYD should be fine as long as they can develop an overhead charging system,

In the scoring system, pricing is only 5% of the scoring. In terms of points in the scoring system, the pantograph requirement is worth 132 points, pricing 56 points, and a plug in bus 12 points.

BYD offering the absolute best pricing and a plug in hybrid would earn them 68 points but leave the 132 points for a the pantograph requirement on the table. 

This could become an industry wide standard feature if ETS forces the issues. It makes a lot of sense for larger fleets. Overhead charger so that all the driver has to do is flip a switch at the garage when under the charging unit to start charging. No manual work plugging in buses, no cranes with arms attached to maneuver around cables etc. Quicker, simpler, and less chance of injury,

[TheAverageJoe]

1 hour ago, M. Parsons said:

No, they don't want fast charge. They want depot charging with a pantograph. The specs for charging time are inline with BYD's plug in buses.

BYD should be fine as long as they can develop an overhead charging system,

In the scoring system, pricing is only 5% of the scoring. In terms of points in the scoring system, the pantograph requirement is worth 132 points, pricing 56 points, and a plug in bus 12 points.

BYD offering the absolute best pricing and a plug in hybrid would earn them 68 points but leave the 132 points for a the pantograph requirement on the table. 

This could become an industry wide standard feature if ETS forces the issues. It makes a lot of sense for larger fleets. Overhead charger so that all the driver has to do is flip a switch at the garage when under the charging unit to start charging. No manual work plugging in buses, no cranes with arms attached to maneuver around cables etc. Quicker, simpler, and less chance of injury,

BYD would be out as they only offer plug in and not pantograph

[M. Parsons]

So far they only don't offer a paantograph. The financial component of the tender is so small that if BYD wants to win this they'd best start figuring out how to deliver what ETS wants even if they have to bid higher because of some R&D work. Again, I wouldn't be surprised if this spec could become a standard requirement as fleet sizes grow anyways.

[TheAverageJoe]

24 minutes ago, M. Parsons said:

So far they only don't offer a paantograph. The financial component of the tender is so small that if BYD wants to win this they'd best start figuring out how to deliver what ETS wants even if they have to bid higher because of some R&D work. Again, I wouldn't be surprised if this spec could become a standard requirement as fleet sizes grow anyways.

True BYD will have to find a way to make a pantograph work as Proterra, Nova and New Flyer all offer it.

[M. Parsons]

http://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-news/edmonton-could-quit-buying-diesel-buses-by-2020-transit-chief

Quote

Edmonton could quit buying diesel buses by 2020: transit chief

Electric buses on the market today are good enough to run the whole day on just one charge, which means Edmonton could kick its diesel habit within three years, the city’s head of transit said Tuesday.

The competition to supply Edmonton’s first 40 electric buses closes Sept. 12 and they’ll be delivered in early 2019, as soon as the new northeast transit garage is built and ready to charge them, said Edmonton Transit chief Eddie Robar.

The city is designing upgrades to the southwest Ferrier Garage to handle the next 120 buses, and if funding for that is approved, it will look at upgrades to the Centennial Transit Garage.

“Theoretically, we could stop buying diesel buses in three years,” said Robar, speaking after an update to council’s executive committee Tuesday. The city is currently buying about 55 buses a year to upgrade a 931-bus fleet that has some of the oldest buses in Canada.

The electric bus procurement update first went to council in private last Tuesday, but after the presentation, council decided the update should be public and sent it to committee. 

Robar said the Ferrier Garage expansion and upgrading will cost about $10 million to $20 million, but the expansion is needed anyway because some diesel buses are currently housed in tents. The funding request goes to the new council this fall.

To support up to 200 electric buses, the city would also need a 10-megawatt primary electric service, upgrades to its distribution system and a new 10-megawatt substation. It likely also needs Alberta Energy System Operator permits.

Robar said he hopes to negotiate the contract for the first 40 electric buses in November. The first five would be delivered early, housed in the Mitchell Garage and road tested. 

A year ago, electric buses on the market could run at best 200 to 250 kilometres, or about half a day’s service, on one charge, said Robar. “But the industry, it’s evolving so fast,” he said.

Today that range is nearly 500 kilometres, which means 20 hours of operation before a charge. 

All the charging will happen in the garage and Edmonton’s electric buses should be able to handle any regular transit route. The buses will also have air conditioning; in the winter, they’ll have a small diesel-powered heater. 

Robar said this is the most “significant purchase of electric buses in Canada.”

Partly because of the climate, the whole industry is watching closely, he said: “It’s a bit of a proving ground for electrification. They work in Edmonton, they can work everywhere.

I call bullshit on the 500 km range. Certainly not now, maybe by 2020?

Given it took 6 months to award the diesel bus NRFP, hopefully it doesn't take that long for this one, otherwise we'll be looking at early-mid 2018 to hear of an award.

Word on the street is that BYD is not happy with the weighting for the non-pantograph option. Ironically, ETS has demoed 4 BYD's and it certainly didn't earn BYD any favours with this tender. ETS's specs were designed for what they seem to think will be the simplest and easiest and perhaps even safest recharging (no cords to trip on, no cords/ arms hanging down or swinging around)  method.

It's great to see ETS leading the pack. 

[awstott]

Interesting that they left Mitchell out of the mix for garages for upgrades to support the electrics.  Do they have everything they need there from back in the trolley days still?

[LRT]

12 hours ago, awstott said:

Interesting that they left Mitchell out of the mix for garages for upgrades to support the electrics.  Do they have everything they need there from back in the trolley days still?

I think ETS pulled everything out because they wanted to ensure to never to see a trolley network ever again!

[A. Wong]

On 9/5/2017 at 10:38 PM, M. Parsons said:

http://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-news/edmonton-could-quit-buying-diesel-buses-by-2020-transit-chief

I call bullshit on the 500 km range. Certainly not now, maybe by 2020?

Proterra is going pretty far, though I am sure under some non-standard conditions: http://mashable.com/2017/09/20/proterra-electric-bus-range-record/

[Doppelkupplung]

On 9/25/2017 at 12:41 AM, A. Wong said:

Proterra is going pretty far, though I am sure under some non-standard conditions: http://mashable.com/2017/09/20/proterra-electric-bus-range-record/

I looked around for more info, but Proterra only seems to have given out the mileage. Could it have been done at low speeds? When an Italian Tesla Owner's club set the record for distance travelled on single charge (670mi), it was done with hypermiling tactics i.e. super low resistance tires, almost no braking, constant speed of 40kph etc. I wonder if Proterra applied the same methodology to achieve that result...

[M. Parsons]

Slight change of plans. The first 5 buses will run out of Centennial, with necessary modifications planned for Centennial.

[Phillip]

Any idea when the battery buses will start to arrive? 

The XD40's should start to arrive soon too! Probably won't be ready when I visit in May though   

[M. Parsons]

6 hours ago, Phillip said:

Any idea when the battery buses will start to arrive? 

The XD40's should start to arrive soon too! Probably won't be ready when I visit in May though   

XD's might be by May. They're supposed to start arriving in February. They shouldn't take as long as the first fleet to enter service.

Battery bus tender doesn't appear to have been awarded yet.