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Propane Bus

Shaun

By Shaun
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Shaun

Shaun

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It seems like a lot of US School Districts are going Propane for their school buses. There seems to be a lot of tax incentives from the government. It seems to be cheaper and cleaner than Diesel.

That's what they said about CNG and we all know how that turned out (with the TTC and even with HSR).

But since then emissions standards have become much more strict, and some people were commenting saying that all of these Emission system components that come with the new buses would be expensive to maintain after the warranty period ends. Giving Propane a significant advantage because it's much cleaner to begin with without the extra equipment.

I'm wondering if we would see that propane trend head north? I see a lot of UPS trucks running on Propane.

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Bus_Medic

Bus_Medic

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It seems like a lot of US School Districts are going Propane for their school buses. There seems to be a lot of tax incentives from the government. It seems to be cheaper and cleaner than Diesel.

That's what they said about CNG and we all know how that turned out (with the TTC and even with HSR).

But since then emissions standards have become much more strict, and some people were commenting saying that all of these Emission system components that come with the new buses would be expensive to maintain after the warranty period ends. Giving Propane a significant advantage because it's much cleaner to begin with without the extra equipment.

I'm wondering if we would see that propane trend head north? I see a lot of UPS trucks running on Propane.

Three problems:

- propane shortens engine life the same way cng does.

-Lower energy density than diesel (though it is better than cng)

-in frigid weather, liquid propane does not evaporate into a gas readily, causing starting and engine starvation problems.

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R. McConnell

R. McConnell

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It has been tried before in transit busses.

CTA_November_2011.pdf

Note: For educational purposes only.

The Los Angeles Department of Transportation (LADOT) has had a propane-fueled transit bus fleet (for the "DASH" shuttle network) since the 1990s.

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Shaun

Shaun

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The Los Angeles Department of Transportation (LADOT) has had a propane-fueled transit bus fleet (for the "DASH" shuttle network) since the 1990s.

Come to think of it, Niagara Falls People mover has also been running on Propane since the beginning.

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Bus_Medic

Bus_Medic

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Come to think of it, Niagara Falls People mover has also been running on Propane since the beginning.

Someone once told me they swapped out the old cummins gas engines for diesel 5.9s in an overhaul some years ago.

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RZ350

RZ350

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Three problems:

-propane shortens engine life the same way CNG does

-Lower energy density than diesel (though it is better than cng)

-in frigid weather, liquid propane does not evaporate into a gas readily, causing starting and engine starvation problems.

1.) not in my experience it doesn't I have seen many a propane engine at well over one million KMs

2.)Correct

3.) Also incorrect in my experience, unless you are looking at extremely cold temps below -30 propane is quite easy to live with, below these temps tank heat is required.

Propane is an excellent choice if used on a spark ignition engine with hardened valves, diesel conversions do not do as well.

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Bus_Medic

Bus_Medic

Posted
Posted
Three problems:

-propane shortens engine life the same way CNG does

-Lower energy density than diesel (though it is better than cng)

-in frigid weather, liquid propane does not evaporate into a gas readily, causing starting and engine starvation problems.

1.) not in my experience it doesn't I have seen many a propane engine at well over one million KMs

2.)Correct

3.) Also incorrect in my experience, unless you are looking at extremely cold temps below -30 propane is quite easy to live with, below these temps tank heat is required.

Propane is an excellent choice if used on a spark ignition engine with hardened valves, diesel conversions do not do as well.

That's the thing- you need hardened valves. The shortened lifespan I'm getting at is the habit of engine oil "cooking" and depositing as an abrasive carbon sludge in the valve stems, guides and seats, wearing out all 3 prematurely and causing oil consumption in the cylinder itself.

I've seen more than a handful of propane and cng crown Victorias do this.You can get a million miles, but you'll go through at least 3 sets of heads getting there.Of course a gas counterpart would go through a set or 2 also.

Some Tour bus "Trolleys" here in Vancouver run on propane, quite interesting seeing them run except theres the downside of the smell of propane everywhere and your passengers are breathing it in on the ride.

I hope you're talking about the exhaust, and not the raw gas. :blink:

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translink fan

translink fan

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That's the thing- you need hardened valves. The shortened lifespan I'm getting at is the habit of engine oil "cooking" and depositing as an abrasive carbon sludge in the valve stems, guides and seats, wearing out all 3 prematurely and causing oil consumption in the cylinder itself.

I've seen more than a handful of propane and cng crown Victorias do this.You can get a million miles, but you'll go through at least 3 sets of heads getting there.Of course a gas counterpart would go through a set or 2 also.

I hope you're talking about the exhaust, and not the raw gas. :)

yeah you can say im talking about the exhaust :P

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  • 4 weeks later...
KTeen

KTeen

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Come to think of it, Niagara Falls People mover has also been running on Propane since the beginning.

Yeah, the old Orion IV's. Very very rare. They were only sold to the Niagara Parks Commission, and I think the NPC sold one to the NYC emergency services. I think it was the only Orion bus that ran on propane.

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tomsbuspage

tomsbuspage

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To my knowledge, these still are propane powered. Here's a recording taken in 2008: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap3CNn-1OcI

The last time I was in Niagara Falls (in 2007), they still had the characteristic propane-exhaust odour. Peeyew! :rolleyes:

OC Transpo converted a few 1979 Silversides to run on propane, then they were converted back a few years later.

I remember those buses. The conversion to propane was done in 1984, and there were no visual differences to the exterior of the buses save for a few blue propane stickers. However, the engines sounded very different, almost like a Cummins engine as I recall. The final report was published in March 1988 according to this link: http://openlibrary.org/works/OL11462510W/F...s_demonstration

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  • 2 weeks later...
M.Wright

M.Wright

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I know this isn't really on the topic of buses, but I remember when Ottawa had propane powered Chevy Caprice Taxi's, every time one went by it smelt like a BBQ :P

Guess they wern't very successful seeing as we don't have anymore propane powered taxi's. But seeing as how harsh our winters are in this city, it is possible that they could of ran good in the winter. But I was too young to remember how they performed. But I do remember they remained propane powered until their retirement.

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