Sheppard East LRT

[Canadian National]

LOL the O-Train is a joke, nice and smooth but a joke

Sorry for going off-topic, but I had to post this.

The O-Train has a purpose. It serves Carleton University and the majority of students there ride the Train to either Downtown or to the South Transitway. Also, the Train is like express service to people in the south part of Ottawa (ie. Hunt Club) that needs to get to Downtown the fast way without hitting traffic....

[Orion9131]

Why? They're ultimately right. It will lead to a patchwork of different transit options and will only somewhat help people who now take the bus to the subway to the subway to get to their destination. It will also fuck things up permanently on Sheppard East - no one of us will ever be alive to see a subway built along it.

Unfortuately though, they're also far too late.

Dan

On paper, the network looks like patchwork, but how do you know it will only somewhat help? Do you really believe that the Sheppard East LRT will be such a failure over the current bus routes, that ridership will drop? I doubt it. There isn't any extra transfers. Finishing the subway would be ideal. No one is going to argue that. But you know the political, and economic reality of transit funding. It's just not that simple. Even if this petition had some credibility, and managed to succeed, I doubt you'll see any sort of transit improvement in this corridor if the Sheppard East LRT was cancelled. We have a fully funded line that will upgrade the bus line in the corridor.

[Transit pizza]

In the case of this project, beggars CAN'T be choosers. Orion 9131 is right, we have money for an LRT line, so we might as well take it and run with it.

I'm sick of nothing happening in terms of REAL transit improvements in this city that I'm close to giving up on Toronto because of the BS. I thought most of the people here were over the whole idea of subways everywhere in the city in favour of a network that could happen a lot sooner with LRT. Yes, it maybe Transfer city, but so what. I would rather ride a tram than a lame bus any day of the week.

[smallspy]

On paper, the network looks like patchwork, but how do you know it will only somewhat help? Do you really believe that the Sheppard East LRT will be such a failure over the current bus routes, that ridership will drop? I doubt it. There isn't any extra transfers. Finishing the subway would be ideal. No one is going to argue that. But you know the political, and economic reality of transit funding. It's just not that simple. Even if this petition had some credibility, and managed to succeed, I doubt you'll see any sort of transit improvement in this corridor if the Sheppard East LRT was cancelled. We have a fully funded line that will upgrade the bus line in the corridor.

I'm not saying that it is a failure or will be a failure. It will help a lot, and especially for shorter trips along Sheppard East.

But for people going longer distances, and to downtown (and don't kid yourself - many people along there do still work downtown), it won't help - all that they are doing is replacing a bus with a streetcar. The transfers will still be there.

In my mind there is no doubt that the LRT is going to be a success. What will happen, however, is that it won't be as successful as it could be, and any impetus to complete the Sheppard subway will be gone, and so we will be left with this patchwork system.

All that said - like I wrote before, it is too late, and we're stuck with it. So let's make the best of it.

Dan

[DavidH]

All that said - like I wrote before, it is too late, and we're stuck with it. So let's make the best of it.

The key at this point is to ensure that we have a solid TSP implementation so that vehicles will hardly ever get held up for reds.

[Orion9131]

I'm not saying that it is a failure or will be a failure. It will help a lot, and especially for shorter trips along Sheppard East.

But for people going longer distances, and to downtown (and don't kid yourself - many people along there do still work downtown), it won't help - all that they are doing is replacing a bus with a streetcar. The transfers will still be there.

In my mind there is no doubt that the LRT is going to be a success. What will happen, however, is that it won't be as successful as it could be, and any impetus to complete the Sheppard subway will be gone, and so we will be left with this patchwork system.

All that said - like I wrote before, it is too late, and we're stuck with it. So let's make the best of it.

Dan

Understood. And I totally agree.

Unfortunately, the creators of the petition do not see it this way. That is what I have a problem with. They are doing more harm then good with this subway advocacy.

[D40-90]

I signed it, I think the Sheppard LRT should be re-considered and extend the subway, which was the orginal plan with the Sheppard Subway, now you are making people transfer way too much, I'm getting sick of this get on-get off BS.

Your not the only one. The whole city will agree with you here. like 90%. Thats why people want the subway extended along Sheppard. If you don't live there or barely ride it on a regular basis, then its quick to judge, like a few people on here.

[Bus_Medic]

according to urban T.O...... Adam Giambrone himself signed it.....

well played... keep 'em coming. no one will take this rag of a petition seriously.

i think i'll sign it as Elvis Presley.

what a crock.

[ttcgeek]

according to urban T.O...... Adam Giambrone himself signed it.....

well played... keep 'em coming. no one will take this rag of a petition seriously.

i think i'll sign it as Elvis Presley.

what a crock.

And the Creme de la Creme is that someone signed it TWICE and posted a message of how stupid the petition was!

People these days.

[DavidH]

well played... keep 'em coming. no one will take this rag of a petition seriously.

i think i'll sign it as Elvis Presley.

what a crock.

Well, the creator of the petition, over on UrbanTO, seems to think fake names on petitions are fine.

[Orion9131]

Petitions are more just about numbers. Does he not realize that? He is making transit enthusiasts look bad with this petition. I hope he comes to his senses, and at least create a more credible petition.

And he still only managed to gather 21 signatures in the past days, most of them fake.

[Bus_Medic]

-and so it begins......

sewer relocation work has commenced this afternoon on the north side of sheppard from immediately west of Gateforth drive to Washburn way.

[Lexx]

-and so it begins......

sewer relocation work has commenced this afternoon on the north side of sheppard from immediately west of Gateforth drive to Washburn way.

YAY It begins!

[Transit pizza]

-and so it begins......

sewer relocation work has commenced this afternoon on the north side of sheppard from immediately west of Gateforth drive to Washburn way.

So I guess it will be sometime before track work begins....

[Bus_Medic]

So I guess it will be sometime before track work begins....

-gotta walk before you can run.

[38 Creditview]

As creator of the aforementioned petition, I don't appreciate the slander that I think fake names are "fine". I said they're part of the game when it comes to any kind of petition, but online petitions in particular. I can't force people to use their real names. How do you know ANY of the names on there are real? You don't, so it doesn't matter. Petitions are about numbers, since all people see is the total number of "signatures".

And I still fully believe in my petition. It's a shame David Shiner doesn't have more influence otherwise the Sheppard East LRT would be dead and we'd be getting a subway to at least Consumers.

[Bus_Medic]

As creator of the aforementioned petition, I don't appreciate the slander that I think fake names are "fine". I said they're part of the game when it comes to any kind of petition, but online petitions in particular. I can't force people to use their real names. How do you know ANY of the names on there are real? You don't, so it doesn't matter. Petitions are about numbers, since all people see is the total number of "signatures".

And I still fully believe in my petition. It's a shame David Shiner doesn't have more influence otherwise the Sheppard East LRT would be dead and we'd be getting a subway to at least Consumers.

cut the crap and learn to grow a thicker skin.

it's a free country, we can say and think whatever the hell we want. that even extends to you.

as for the petition:it's an empty gesture that's too little too late.

[wil9402]

And I still fully believe in my petition. It's a shame David Shiner doesn't have more influence otherwise the Sheppard East LRT would be dead and we'd be getting a subway to at least Consumers.

What good would one extra stop do? If you ask me, if your going to extend a line extended more than 1 stop and at least 2.5-3km or more.

[38 Creditview]

What good would one extra stop do? If you ask me, if your going to extend a line extended more than 1 stop and at least 2.5-3km or more.

One stop is better than nothing. Finishing the Sheppard Subway to STC is clearly the preferred option for most. As is bringing the Danforth line to STC. It's the lack of vision at the municipal level that is preventing rational solutions, not cost. If things were prioritized properly we'd get more done.

Sheppard isn't at the top of my list (a subway to MCC would help me much more), but if you're going to waste billions on Sheppard, you might as well do it right and finish the subway that was always in the plans.

DRL should be priority #1 because the amount of subways we have downtown is laughable for a city Toronto's size. Most of our subway network is far beyond the reaches of downtown. And I'm not against that, but the core should be strong. And when the core is strong, spread out more. I'd love a DRL. I'd also love a Queen line. An Eglinton subway. Extending Sheppard to Downsview and Scarborough Centre. Extending Yonge to Steeles and beyond. Spadina would be like bottom-barrel of priorities, with MCC second-last.

[Neil]

One stop is better than nothing. Finishing the Sheppard Subway to STC is clearly the preferred option for most. As is bringing the Danforth line to STC. It's the lack of vision at the municipal level that is preventing rational solutions, not cost. If things were prioritized properly we'd get more done.

Sheppard isn't at the top of my list (a subway to MCC would help me much more), but if you're going to waste billions on Sheppard, you might as well do it right and finish the subway that was always in the plans.

DRL should be priority #1 because the amount of subways we have downtown is laughable for a city Toronto's size. Most of our subway network is far beyond the reaches of downtown. And I'm not against that, but the core should be strong. And when the core is strong, spread out more. I'd love a DRL. I'd also love a Queen line. An Eglinton subway. Extending Sheppard to Downsview and Scarborough Centre. Extending Yonge to Steeles and beyond. Spadina would be like bottom-barrel of priorities, with MCC second-last.

I'd say the Sheppard subway extension to STC is clearly the preferred option for *SOME* users. The reality of working with limited funds is that politically it needs to be seen to be fair to all Torontonians. Spending money on a subway extension would mean no LRT or subway for anything else. We don't need to persist a sunk cost fallacy by thinking that just because a subway is there a subway is required further east.

If you're on the principle that it will be a waste of money to go LRT... because future demand will warrant a subway.... I think the right way to engage Sheppard users is to survey whether they want an incremental improvement now... or get nothing and stick with buses indefinitely into the future for a subway that may never get built. I'd vote for real benefit in the short term. It would be a great problem to have to say that we've outgrown the LRT option in future.

[TheAverageJoe]

One stop is better than nothing. Finishing the Sheppard Subway to STC is clearly the preferred option for most. As is bringing the Danforth line to STC. It's the lack of vision at the municipal level that is preventing rational solutions, not cost. If things were prioritized properly we'd get more done.

Sheppard isn't at the top of my list (a subway to MCC would help me much more), but if you're going to waste billions on Sheppard, you might as well do it right and finish the subway that was always in the plans.

DRL should be priority #1 because the amount of subways we have downtown is laughable for a city Toronto's size. Most of our subway network is far beyond the reaches of downtown. And I'm not against that, but the core should be strong. And when the core is strong, spread out more. I'd love a DRL. I'd also love a Queen line. An Eglinton subway. Extending Sheppard to Downsview and Scarborough Centre. Extending Yonge to Steeles and beyond. Spadina would be like bottom-barrel of priorities, with MCC second-last.

its not due to lack of vision its due to lack of cash

[Transit pizza]

I'd say the Sheppard subway extension to STC is clearly the preferred option for *SOME* users. The reality of working with limited funds is that politically it needs to be seen to be fair to all Torontonians. Spending money on a subway extension would mean no LRT or subway for anything else. We don't need to persist a sunk cost fallacy by thinking that just because a subway is there a subway is required further east.

If you're on the principle that it will be a waste of money to go LRT... because future demand will warrant a subway.... I think the right way to engage Sheppard users is to survey whether they want an incremental improvement now... or get nothing and stick with buses indefinitely into the future for a subway that may never get built. I'd vote for real benefit in the short term. It would be a great problem to have to say that we've outgrown the LRT option in future.

It's too bad more subway fanatics don't see it your way....

[Neil]

It's too bad more subway fanatics don't see it your way....

Thankfully more of the voting public are transit users rather than transit enthusiasts. Not be overly utilitarian... but at some point the merits of "right now" have to begin to outweigh the benefits of the "right" thing for the city. As a transit enthusiast I am somewhat embarrassed that we reject a possible *transit* improvement to hold out for something better (read: "subways") when other cities see merit in ongoing, substantive improvements in the overall network using light rail -- presumably with decisions made subject to similar budget constraints. Whereas previously Toronto was seen as a progressive, transit supportive city, now we are considered by some to lag behind other major cities in transit investment.

[Orion9131]

Reading the Urban Toronto Sheppard LRT makes my head hurt. Those members will say anything to justify their claim for a subway. I recently rode T3 in Paris, and it works really well. It is probably the closest approximation to what Transity City will be like.

[Transit pizza]

Has anyone been out on Sheppard to witness any of the construction as of late?