2024 40' Trolleybus Procurement

[Daria]

On 3/11/2025 at 10:48 AM, UprisingCanadian said:

Again, not to mention, New Flyer quality has gone down the toilet in the past few years. 

Also, the Xcelsior trolleys don't have an option for a rear window, and that was apparently a significant reason as to why this order went to Solaris.

Reason three; when TransLink was testing out the Solaris demonstrator in August 2023, basically everyone was in love with the thing.

But it is not only NF trolleybuses that do not have a rear window, but also all CNG buses, including Nev Flyer XN40 Nova Bus LFS Natural Gas. And this did not become a reason for refusing to purchase them for the fleet.

3 minutes ago, Michael Marriott said:

In the Buzzer Blog post on the new fleet it was mentioned that TransLink has spaced two doors on the new fleet, rather than three doors.

Well, that's better, although, in my opinion, it still doesn't justify the refusal to purchase new Nev Flyer models.

[UprisingCanadian]

2 hours ago, Daria said:

But it is not only NF trolleybuses that do not have a rear window, but also all CNG buses, including Nev Flyer XN40 Nova Bus LFS Natural Gas. And this did not become a reason for refusing to purchase them for the fleet.

CNG and Trolleys are two very different Propulsion types. A back window is not necessarily required for a CNG bus. However, on a trolley, it's significantly more helpful regarding pole monitoring.

Also, the Nova CNG has a rear window option (see; Red Deer Nova CNGs), but we did not specify ours with a rear window for some reason. Not sure why, but it could be TL specifying the Nova CNGs as close as possible to the XN40s.

[M. Parsons]

7 hours ago, UprisingCanadian said:

CNG and Trolleys are two very different Propulsion types. A back window is not necessarily required for a CNG bus. However, on a trolley, it's significantly more helpful regarding pole monitoring.

Frankly the rear window sounded like an excuse to help justify Solaris. Seattle, San Fransisco, and Dayton all have buses without rear windows and seem to do fine. I know Dayton's buses have a slick little display to show the position of the poles. 

It does sound like Solaris was significantly cheaper than New Flyer, and it sounds like the buses will be built in Poland.

[Daria]

1 hour ago, M. Parsons said:

Frankly the rear window sounded like an excuse to help justify Solaris. Seattle, San Fransisco, and Dayton all have buses without rear windows and seem to do fine. I know Dayton's buses have a slick little display to show the position of the poles. 

It does sound like Solaris was significantly cheaper than New Flyer, and it sounds like the buses will be built in Poland.

Exactly, Solaris is made in Poland. Will their cost be less if we take into account the delivery from Europe?

[M. Parsons]

4 hours ago, Daria said:

Exactly, Solaris is made in Poland. Will their cost be less if we take into account the delivery from Europe?

Well yes, as that would have been included in their bid, just as New Flyer would have factored in flatbed shipping a trolleybus to Vancouver in their bid.

[T3G]

17 hours ago, Daria said:

Solaris does not fit into the overall design of our fleet,

Can you explain what this means?

[Daria]

1 hour ago, M. Parsons said:

Well yes, as that would have been included in their bid, just as New Flyer would have factored in flatbed shipping a trolleybus to Vancouver in their bid.

It would probably be cheaper to ship a trolleybus from Canada to Canada than from Eastern Europe to Western Canada!

[Citaro]

1 hour ago, Daria said:

It would probably be cheaper to ship a trolleybus from Canada to Canada than from Eastern Europe to Western Canada!

The pilot vehicle will be built in Poland (and likely some additional units too), but most of the order will be fulfilled in their upcoming US factory (unless they choose to set up shop in Canada, which is unlikely but possible).

[981]

9 hours ago, M. Parsons said:

Frankly the rear window sounded like an excuse to help justify Solaris. Seattle, San Fransisco, and Dayton all have buses without rear windows and seem to do fine. I know Dayton's buses have a slick little display to show the position of the poles. 

It does sound like Solaris was significantly cheaper than New Flyer, and it sounds like the buses will be built in Poland.

The rear window thing was a valid concern brought up, as a camera hooked to a screen would be a distraction for drivers, which is a known problem on the Enviro500s

Furthermore, it's a huge liability for Translink as the union could make a fool out of them if a trolleybus got into an accident using the excuse that the screen was distracting the driver, possibly even WorkSafeBC could get involved like with the air conditioning saga of the late 2000s

[Daria]

3 hours ago, 981 said:

The rear window thing was a valid concern brought up, as a camera hooked to a screen would be a distraction for drivers, which is a known problem on the Enviro500s

Furthermore, it's a huge liability for Translink as the union could make a fool out of them if a trolleybus got into an accident using the excuse that the screen was distracting the driver, possibly even WorkSafeBC could get involved like with the air conditioning saga of the late 2000s

That is, unfortunately, no one thinks about the driver’s problems.

[Daria]

6 hours ago, T3G said:

Can you explain what this means?

This means that the entire fleet, both NF and NB, although very different in appearance, have a common design: clear, conservative, often straight lines around the windows and no broken lines.
European vehicles look too avant-garde and this is not an advantage.

[T3G]

6 hours ago, Daria said:

This means that the entire fleet, both NF and NB, although very different in appearance, have a common design: clear, conservative, often straight lines around the windows and no broken lines.
European vehicles look too avant-garde and this is not an advantage.

Avant-garde? Seriously? It's a tissue box. 

Also, how is it not an advantage? Do you really think that having boxy vehicles is going to negatively impact the fleet in any way? You guys survived the Orion Vs and the D40LFs fine enough.

[2102]

1 hour ago, T3G said:

Avant-garde? Seriously? It's a tissue box. 

Also, how is it not an advantage? Do you really think that having boxy vehicles is going to negatively impact the fleet in any way? You guys survived the Orion Vs and the D40LFs fine enough.

Some foamers are just dead set against anything thats not made by their "favourite company" and will use any argument 

[981]

1 hour ago, 2102 said:

Some foamers are just dead set against anything thats not made by their "favourite company" and will use any argument 

Vancouver foamers when Trollino demo: OMG YES WE SHOULD BUY THIS ITS SO MODERN AND COOL OMG

Vancouver foamers now that CMBC actually bought Trollinos: OMG NOOOOO ITS NOT XCELSIOR SO ITS BAD!1!1!1!!1!1!

 

[buizelbus]

19 hours ago, Citaro said:

The pilot vehicle will be built in Poland (and likely some additional units too), but most of the order will be fulfilled in their upcoming US factory (unless they choose to set up shop in Canada, which is unlikely but possible).

New provincial legislation might change this. IIRC it specifically discourages any government body, Crown corporation (CMBC), or statutory authority (TransLink) from buying U.S. products, and lets the King-in-Council (aka provincial government) order that a supplier be changed to a non-American equivalent.

[UprisingCanadian]

I heard that Solaris was eyeing the ENC facility in California. I think that fell through though, with ENC being revived.

If there's gonna be a factory built in Canada, it'll likely be either Metro Vancouver or the GTA.

[M. Parsons]

20 hours ago, 981 said:

The rear window thing was a valid concern brought up, as a camera hooked to a screen would be a distraction for drivers, which is a known problem on the Enviro500s

Furthermore, it's a huge liability for Translink as the union could make a fool out of them if a trolleybus got into an accident using the excuse that the screen was distracting the driver, possibly even WorkSafeBC could get involved like with the air conditioning saga of the late 2000s

Yeah, I don't know about a camera, but as I suggested, the slick display Dayton uses. I would imagine Seattle and San Fransisco use the same thing. 
https://www.daytontrolleys.net/pictures/htm/usa_h_day_vossloh'1401_operatorvideodisplay_20141110_rtm_1851w.htm
 

20 hours ago, Citaro said:

The pilot vehicle will be built in Poland (and likely some additional units too), but most of the order will be fulfilled in their upcoming US factory (unless they choose to set up shop in Canada, which is unlikely but possible).

Again, it sounds like all production will be in Poland, at least according to New Flyer.

. Solaris did win an RFP put out by Translink in Vancouver for a series of trolley buses, some firm, some options. Our understanding -- and we haven't yet had our full debrief, but our understanding is that their price made in Poland notably different than ours, like I don't mean a little bit, but a lot. So, there's a dynamic of a Canadian domestic competitor, us competing against the Polish import. There are no Buy Canada content rules in that RFP.

https://www.nfigroup.com/static-files/a4b7e6d6-a137-41f4-9598-f0c21bbf2f7e

[2044]

Would NFI even have made the buses completely in Canada anyway?

[Antonov AN-225 Mriya]

3 minutes ago, 2044 said:

Would NFI even have made the buses completely in Canada anyway?

Not until 2027

https://electricautonomy.ca/automakers/2024-11-04/new-flyer-electric-bus-market/

[981]

9 hours ago, M. Parsons said:

Yeah, I don't know about a camera, but as I suggested, the slick display Dayton uses. I would imagine Seattle and San Fransisco use the same thing. 
https://www.daytontrolleys.net/pictures/htm/usa_h_day_vossloh'1401_operatorvideodisplay_20141110_rtm_1851w.htm
 

Again, it sounds like all production will be in Poland, at least according to New Flyer.

 

If it was the display you mentioned on those Dayton buses that was causing a headache for Translink, it shouldn't and wouldn't be a problem, as numerous buses in the fleet such as the LFSE+ have similar screens, and for all I know the Solaris might have a dash with a screen like that already built into it, like how the demonstrator had a fully digital dash manufactured by Continental

[SeanNelson]

On 3/29/2025 at 1:32 AM, UprisingCanadian said:

CNG and Trolleys are two very different Propulsion types. A back window is not necessarily required for a CNG bus. However, on a trolley, it's significantly more helpful regarding pole monitoring.

That makes total sense to me.

[81-717]

On 3/30/2025 at 8:32 AM, T3G said:

Do you really think that having boxy vehicles is going to negatively impact the fleet in any way? You guys survived the Orion Vs and the D40LFs fine enough.

As far as I'm concerned, that's exactly how a vehicle (bus/train) should be.

[translink]

On 5/23/2024 at 2:48 PM, Mark Walton said:

Link to full-size text.

With the order now confirmed. At least for the base orders. Found the web archive link to the posting. Doc4343452117 - Design, Production and Supply of Electric Trolley Buses. In case anyone wanted a point of reference.

[martin607]

Delivery of the pilot bus is expected in June 2026. At least the pilot bus will be built in the European, 3 door layout.

[981]

3 hours ago, martin607 said:

Delivery of the pilot bus is expected in June 2026. At least the pilot bus will be built in the European, 3 door layout.

Not to come off as rude, but do you have a source for the pilot bus being an EU-spec 3 door bus, an entirely different bus compared to the North American model?