MTA NYCT Subway/Bus discussion

[Byfold]

50 minutes ago, New Yorker 2001 said:

Why don't YOU at the hell like the adult you "claim" you are and not stick your nose in my business? I loath people like you. I really do.

I never claimed to be an adult anywhere in my post.  I told you to grow up... big difference.   Seeing you get your panties in a knot is hilarious. 

[DCTransitFilms]

1 hour ago, New Yorker 2001 said:

Why don't YOU at the hell like the adult you "claim" you are and not stick your nose in my business? I loath people like you. I really do.

Bottomline is, MTA made a stupid decision to purchase from Solaris that I know for a fact they will regret in the not so distant future. 

But then again, one can say that this whole electric bus bullshit initiative by 2040 is a colonial stupid discission in general. The infrastructure does not currently exist for that nor will it exist for years.

You do realize if MTA doesn’t like them they can simply return them. This is why they’re only ordering 5 units and they seem to be more of a test like when they had the former XE40s and Proterras. 
 

And Like i said too, this would be great starting point for Solaris, scoring an order for one of the biggest transit agencies in the West. If they’re proven to be successful, Solaris can possibly give NFI and Gillig a run for their money. 

[Glennwood Road Ent.]

16 hours ago, DCTransitFilms said:

Let's get back to actual MTA news. Apparently the Van Hool order for the CX45Es are cancelled. Guessing it was in favor to the Solaris electrics.

That's correct 

9 minutes ago, DCTransitFilms said:

You do realize if MTA doesn’t like them they can simply return them. This is why they’re only ordering 5 units and they seem to be more of a test like when they had the former XE40s and Proterras. 
 

And Like i said too, this would be great starting point for Solaris, scoring an order for one of the biggest transit agencies in the West. If they’re proven to be successful, Solaris can possibly give NFI and Gillig a run for their money. 

I agree with you 

[Bus_Medic]

Oooh this is fun

[DCTransitFilms]

1 hour ago, Bus_Medic said:

Oooh this is fun

Mind passing me the popcorn? 

[Bus_Medic]

2 hours ago, DCTransitFilms said:

Mind passing me the popcorn? 

There’s plenty enough for everyone 

[Big CJ]

Well I didn't want to say this, but I'm going to be honest about this whole we need North American buses to be built in our country, and foreign makers need to stay away nonsense. I've been hearing it for the past number of years, and I'm tired of it. Like people posting in all caps on Facebook "BRING BACK GENERAL MOTORS" as one of the many posts I've seen. Many fans forget the fact that by the mid 1970s, GM wanted out of the bus industry.

The quality of some of the 5307s built in the United States like the huge order for CTA was poor. Add deferred maintenance into the equation from CTA, it only made a bad situation worse. I won't get too detailed into CTA as this thread is for NYC, but that era of the fishbowl in Chicago is not fondly looked at by CTA fans. There were also a number of bus companies that owned GM parlor coaches like the 4905s, H8H-649s, etc., who wanted GM to upgrade those coaches, so they can stay with GM, but once again that's beyond the scope of this thread. To make that long story short, GM said no.

Then we get to the RTS, the icon of New York City as some call it. The only reason GM even built that bus, was because of the government mandates coming into the industry at the time. None of the fans talk about the rough riding from the independent front suspension that never got addressed, until the last few years of GM in the industry. They went back to the straight beam front suspension, which was found on the fishbowls and made the RTS ride better. The rear wheelchair lifts was another source of issue with transit properties and the crappy air conditioning.

While New York City and a number of cities went back for more RTS after their first order, many never bought an RTS ever again. Turning to Flxible, Gillig, or foreign bus builders to fill their needs. If there was any other reason for GM to leave, was because of how few the RTS sold compared to the fishbowl, which they were still selling in Canada through GMDD. So what makes anyone think GM will return now? It's been decades since they left, and just on the slight chance that GM announced next week they were returning to the industry. It won't be the GM of the 1950s and 1960s people are thinking of. The company today is a completely different animal, and who is to say many transit properties will actually put up with GM in 2024? Like what's going to be different today versus the 1970s or 1980s? 

 

With that said, going back to MTA, I wonder how many of the next generation Orion VIIs are left, following the retirement of the older Orion VIIs? I know those are also in the process of being phased out as well. 

[Glennwood Road Ent.]

8 minutes ago, Big CJ said:

Well I didn't want to say this, but I'm going to be honest about this whole we need North American buses to be built in our country, and foreign makers need to stay away nonsense. I've been hearing it for the past number of years, and I'm tired of it. Like people posting in all caps on Facebook "BRING BACK GENERAL MOTORS" as one of the many posts I've seen. Many fans forget the fact that by the mid 1970s, GM wanted out of the bus industry.

The quality of some of the 5307s built in the United States like the huge order for CTA was poor. Add deferred maintenance into the equation from CTA, it only made a bad situation worse. I won't get too detailed into CTA as this thread is for NYC, but that era of the fishbowl in Chicago is not fondly looked at by CTA fans. There were also a number of bus companies that owned GM parlor coaches like the 4905s, H8H-649s, etc., who wanted GM to upgrade those coaches, so they can stay with GM, but once again that's beyond the scope of this thread. To make that long story short, GM said no.

Then we get to the RTS, the icon of New York City as some call it. The only reason GM even built that bus, was because of the government mandates coming into the industry at the time. None of the fans talk about the rough riding from the independent front suspension that never got addressed, until the last few years of GM in the industry. They went back to the straight beam front suspension, which was found on the fishbowls and made the RTS ride better. The rear wheelchair lifts was another source of issue with transit properties and the crappy air conditioning.

While New York City and a number of cities went back for them after their first order, many never bought an RTS ever again. Turning to Flxible, Gillig, or foreign bus builders to fill their needs. If there was any other reason for GM to leave, was because of how few the RTS sold compared to the fishbowl, which they were still selling in Canada through GMDD. So what makes anyone think GM will return now? It's been decades since they left, and just on the slight chance that GM announced next week they were returning to the industry. It won't be the GM of the 1950s and 1960s people are thinking of. The company today is a completely different animal, and who is to say many transit properties will actually put up with GM in 2024? Like what's going to be different today versus the 1970s or 1980s? 

 

With that said, going back to MTA, I wonder how many of the next generation Orion VIIs are left, following the retirement of the older Orion VIIs? I know those are also in the process of being phased out as well. 

325 2008-10 Orion VII NG HEVs left in service and the oldest units of the fleet at this time. 

[Big CJ]

Just now, Glennwood Road Ent. said:

325 2008-10 Orion VII NG HEVs left in service and the oldest units of the fleet at this time. 

Wow, that's wild. Just 10 years ago when I was last in the city, Orion VIIs were everywhere. 2012, I rode the 7000 series EPA10 Orion VIIs, that were part of the 90 bus evaluation. They were still new, having been delivered in late 2011. They rode nice and I believe that was the same series, where some of the buses were equipped with bike racks IIRC. That's going to be a shock to me when I return to the city late this year or early next year for a visit. 

[New Yorker 2001]

6 hours ago, Big CJ said:

Well I didn't want to say this, but I'm going to be honest about this whole we need North American buses to be built in our country, and foreign makers need to stay away nonsense. I've been hearing it for the past number of years, and I'm tired of it. Like people posting in all caps on Facebook "BRING BACK GENERAL MOTORS" as one of the many posts I've seen. Many fans forget the fact that by the mid 1970s, GM wanted out of the bus industry.

The quality of some of the 5307s built in the United States like the huge order for CTA was poor. Add deferred maintenance into the equation from CTA, it only made a bad situation worse. I won't get too detailed into CTA as this thread is for NYC, but that era of the fishbowl in Chicago is not fondly looked at by CTA fans. There were also a number of bus companies that owned GM parlor coaches like the 4905s, H8H-649s, etc., who wanted GM to upgrade those coaches, so they can stay with GM, but once again that's beyond the scope of this thread. To make that long story short, GM said no.

Then we get to the RTS, the icon of New York City as some call it. The only reason GM even built that bus, was because of the government mandates coming into the industry at the time. None of the fans talk about the rough riding from the independent front suspension that never got addressed, until the last few years of GM in the industry. They went back to the straight beam front suspension, which was found on the fishbowls and made the RTS ride better. The rear wheelchair lifts was another source of issue with transit properties and the crappy air conditioning.

While New York City and a number of cities went back for more RTS after their first order, many never bought an RTS ever again. Turning to Flxible, Gillig, or foreign bus builders to fill their needs. If there was any other reason for GM to leave, was because of how few the RTS sold compared to the fishbowl, which they were still selling in Canada through GMDD. So what makes anyone think GM will return now? It's been decades since they left, and just on the slight chance that GM announced next week they were returning to the industry. It won't be the GM of the 1950s and 1960s people are thinking of. The company today is a completely different animal, and who is to say many transit properties will actually put up with GM in 2024? Like what's going to be different today versus the 1970s or 1980s? 

 

With that said, going back to MTA, I wonder how many of the next generation Orion VIIs are left, following the retirement of the older Orion VIIs? I know those are also in the process of being phased out as well. 

There's slightly more than 300 Orion 7.501 NG buses built to MTA specs left in service (between MTA and NICE, around 290 for BC, 50 for NYCTA, and 8-9 for NICE (CNGs)). This is not counting the EPA10 3Gs for both.

6 hours ago, Big CJ said:

Wow, that's wild. Just 10 years ago when I was last in the city, Orion VIIs were everywhere. 2012, I rode the 7000 series EPA10 Orion VIIs, that were part of the 90 bus evaluation. They were still new, having been delivered in late 2011. They rode nice and I believe that was the same series, where some of the buses were equipped with bike racks IIRC. That's going to be a shock to me when I return to the city late this year or early next year for a visit. 

By that point, only Staten Island and parts of Nassau will still have Orion 7s regularly seen (again EPA10s).

For Brooklyn, the New Flyer Xcelsiors have largely taken over depots that were formerly RTS and Orion 7 territory. 

The Nova LFS's meanwhile had taken over many of the former Orion 5.501 depots although there are areas that overlap between to two.

[DCTransitFilms]

7 hours ago, Big CJ said:

With that said, going back to MTA, I wonder how many of the next generation Orion VIIs are left, following the retirement of the older Orion VIIs? I know those are also in the process of being phased out as well. 

Most are now with MTA Bus in Queens. Few stragglers around Nassau (Long Island), Brooklyn, Manhattan, Queens (NYCT operated routes), and the 7EPA10s in Staten Island going strong.

 

[FlyerD901]

10 hours ago, Big CJ said:

Well I didn't want to say this, but I'm going to be honest about this whole we need North American buses to be built in our country, and foreign makers need to stay away nonsense. I've been hearing it for the past number of years, and I'm tired of it. Like people posting in all caps on Facebook "BRING BACK GENERAL MOTORS" as one of the many posts I've seen. Many fans forget the fact that by the mid 1970s, GM wanted out of the bus industry.

The quality of some of the 5307s built in the United States like the huge order for CTA was poor. Add deferred maintenance into the equation from CTA, it only made a bad situation worse. I won't get too detailed into CTA as this thread is for NYC, but that era of the fishbowl in Chicago is not fondly looked at by CTA fans. There were also a number of bus companies that owned GM parlor coaches like the 4905s, H8H-649s, etc., who wanted GM to upgrade those coaches, so they can stay with GM, but once again that's beyond the scope of this thread. To make that long story short, GM said no.

Then we get to the RTS, the icon of New York City as some call it. The only reason GM even built that bus, was because of the government mandates coming into the industry at the time. None of the fans talk about the rough riding from the independent front suspension that never got addressed, until the last few years of GM in the industry. They went back to the straight beam front suspension, which was found on the fishbowls and made the RTS ride better. The rear wheelchair lifts was another source of issue with transit properties and the crappy air conditioning.

While New York City and a number of cities went back for more RTS after their first order, many never bought an RTS ever again. Turning to Flxible, Gillig, or foreign bus builders to fill their needs. If there was any other reason for GM to leave, was because of how few the RTS sold compared to the fishbowl, which they were still selling in Canada through GMDD. So what makes anyone think GM will return now? It's been decades since they left, and just on the slight chance that GM announced next week they were returning to the industry. It won't be the GM of the 1950s and 1960s people are thinking of. The company today is a completely different animal, and who is to say many transit properties will actually put up with GM in 2024? Like what's going to be different today versus the 1970s or 1980s? 

 

With that said, going back to MTA, I wonder how many of the next generation Orion VIIs are left, following the retirement of the older Orion VIIs? I know those are also in the process of being phased out as well. 

Thr Bus manufacturing industry is a tough market. All these custom specs make difficult to be sustainable and make a reasonable profit. Look at all the guaranteed order Nova gets in Quebec , and they are still downsizing. 

Looks at Flyer, borrowing money from the government, despite being a major stake in the market. 

Detroit Diesel doesn't even make engines for the transit market anymore. 

Cummins had to pull out from making hybrid engines for articulated buses. To the point where NFI didn't offer the hybrid artic for a short while.

Look at how many bus manufacturers left in the last two years. Van hool, etc.

It's way more profitable to be in coaches and trucking , than in transit industry. 

Most ppl that want GM back are saying so out of pure geek feelings. And not logical business mind perspective. Accessibility and new propulsion will make it extremely difficult to even enter the market. Then add on buying local, and the supply chain issue. It's will be suicidal for anyone to enter a market where a profit is slim and by chance.

As you mentioned , RTS only came about because of the federal project to get accessible buses and buses of the future. In the late 60s into the 1970s, and GM took advantage by using that to build a new product. Something they weren't supposed to do, but did anyways. 

The transit bus industry is not as simple, I even saw companies making sure they have diversity hiring as part of buying new buses. It's bad enough making a bus is difficult, then add on social causes. 

The issues have been going on since the 70s, with luck and chances that some bus manufacturers are still around. NFI is really the only transit bus manufacturer that's still around from the 60s. To their credit, considering where they make buses, it's not near a major transit system to get the "local" support 

 

[DCTransitFilms]

3966 LGA to Zerega for training

3700 retired from Zerega

4160, 4161, 4631 retired from JFK 

4345 retired from Eastchester

9295 delivered to LGA

[New Yorker 2001]

21 hours ago, FlyerD901 said:

Thr Bus manufacturing industry is a tough market. All these custom specs make difficult to be sustainable and make a reasonable profit. Look at all the guaranteed order Nova gets in Quebec , and they are still downsizing. 

Looks at Flyer, borrowing money from the government, despite being a major stake in the market. 

Detroit Diesel doesn't even make engines for the transit market anymore. 

Cummins had to pull out from making hybrid engines for articulated buses. To the point where NFI didn't offer the hybrid artic for a short while.

Look at how many bus manufacturers left in the last two years. Van hool, etc.

It's way more profitable to be in coaches and trucking , than in transit industry. 

Most ppl that want GM back are saying so out of pure geek feelings. And not logical business mind perspective. Accessibility and new propulsion will make it extremely difficult to even enter the market. Then add on buying local, and the supply chain issue. It's will be suicidal for anyone to enter a market where a profit is slim and by chance.

As you mentioned , RTS only came about because of the federal project to get accessible buses and buses of the future. In the late 60s into the 1970s, and GM took advantage by using that to build a new product. Something they weren't supposed to do, but did anyways. 

The transit bus industry is not as simple, I even saw companies making sure they have diversity hiring as part of buying new buses. It's bad enough making a bus is difficult, then add on social causes. 

The issues have been going on since the 70s, with luck and chances that some bus manufacturers are still around. NFI is really the only transit bus manufacturer that's still around from the 60s. To their credit, considering where they make buses, it's not near a major transit system to get the "local" support 

 

Who is calling for GM to return to bus building? Personally, I'm not against that, but I doubt they will. However, they managed to bring back Hummer (under the GMC nameplate), so anything is possible I guess.

21 hours ago, FlyerD901 said:

Thr Bus manufacturing industry is a tough market. All these custom specs make difficult to be sustainable and make a reasonable profit. Look at all the guaranteed order Nova gets in Quebec , and they are still downsizing. 

Looks at Flyer, borrowing money from the government, despite being a major stake in the market. 

Detroit Diesel doesn't even make engines for the transit market anymore. 

Cummins had to pull out from making hybrid engines for articulated buses. To the point where NFI didn't offer the hybrid artic for a short while.

Look at how many bus manufacturers left in the last two years. Van hool, etc.

It's way more profitable to be in coaches and trucking , than in transit industry. 

Most ppl that want GM back are saying so out of pure geek feelings. And not logical business mind perspective. Accessibility and new propulsion will make it extremely difficult to even enter the market. Then add on buying local, and the supply chain issue. It's will be suicidal for anyone to enter a market where a profit is slim and by chance.

As you mentioned , RTS only came about because of the federal project to get accessible buses and buses of the future. In the late 60s into the 1970s, and GM took advantage by using that to build a new product. Something they weren't supposed to do, but did anyways. 

The transit bus industry is not as simple, I even saw companies making sure they have diversity hiring as part of buying new buses. It's bad enough making a bus is difficult, then add on social causes. 

The issues have been going on since the 70s, with luck and chances that some bus manufacturers are still around. NFI is really the only transit bus manufacturer that's still around from the 60s. To their credit, considering where they make buses, it's not near a major transit system to get the "local" support 

 

I think at some point, the RTS would have become a thing regardless. GM needed something to compete with the Grumman 870 (later the Flexible Metro). It'd be very strange if GM was still building Fishbowls into the 90s (but then again, GM shifted the bus building duties to TMC in 1987).

[map.man (Darrin)]

6 minutes ago, New Yorker 2001 said:

Who is calling for GM to return to bus building? Personally, I'm not against that, but I doubt they will. However, they managed to bring back Hummer (under the GMC nameplate), so anything is possible I guess.

Kind of miss those huge back windows that you don't see much of anymore on newer coaches.

Weird that I didn't look ahead back in those days, always like seeing where I've been.

[FlyerD901]

3 hours ago, New Yorker 2001 said:

Who is calling for GM to return to bus building? Personally, I'm not against that, but I doubt they will. However, they managed to bring back Hummer (under the GMC nameplate), so anything is possible I guess.

I think at some point, the RTS would have become a thing regardless. GM needed something to compete with the Grumman 870 (later the Flexible Metro). It'd be very strange if GM was still building Fishbowls into the 90s (but then again, GM shifted the bus building duties to TMC in 1987).

Starting up bus manufacturing compared to bringing back the Hummer is two different things. They're still in the car and SUV market. It's still within what they currently do.

Plenty of ppl want GM to resume building buses. We don't have to go far to see that. It would have been interesting to see what bus concepts GM had just prior to them leaving the bus market in the 1980s. 

Sure GM was going to bring out a new model regardless. But the bus of the future helped them out, with all the government grants they otherwise wouldn't have gotten. And it was known that the deal was not to help them build a new model. That info is available online. They also brought out the Classics which probably would have been the natural next model up.

I'm going off topic. 

 

Probably start a 'what if' thread to discuss all this somewhere else. 

[DCTransitFilms]

4025, 4084, 4632, 4647 retired from JFK

9109 delivered to JFK

[DCTransitFilms]

9093 delivered to JFK

526 College Point to Spring Creek

2286 Charleston to Ulmer Park

3279, 3293 LaGuardia to Yonkers 

3332, 3333 Spring Creek to Far Rockaway

9470 Mother Clara Hale to Michael J. Quill 

[New Yorker 2001]

18 hours ago, DCTransitFilms said:

9093 delivered to JFK

526 College Point to Spring Creek

2286 Charleston to Ulmer Park

3279, 3293 LaGuardia to Yonkers 

3332, 3333 Spring Creek to Far Rockaway

9470 Mother Clara Hale to Michael J. Quill 

I wouldn't bother mentioning this as these are probably loans. 2024 Nova LFS #9179 is pending delivery to JFK Depot along with 2023-2024 New Flyer XD40s #9301 and #9302  to LGA.

The 2012 New Flyer C40LF CNGs in the lower #500s have been regularly trade between Spring Creek and College Point Depots since they were brand new 11.5 years ago.

 

[New Yorker 2001]

2024 Nova LFS #9179 delivered NEW to JFK.

2024 Nova LFS #9133 also delivered NEW to JFK Depot.

[DCTransitFilms]

9470 is back at Mother Clara Hale. 4586 retired from JFK and 3964, 4147 are at Zerega.

[DCTransitFilms]

4146, 4149, 4168, 4445 all retired from JFK

3279, 3293, 3332 are all back at LGA

4119, 4278, 4601 returned to LGA from College Point. 4130 and 4375 are on loan to College Point from LGA.

[DCTransitFilms]

4164, 4202 retired from JFK. 

9293, 9296 delivered to LGA

9329 delivered to JFK

3301 LaGuardia to Far Rockaway loan

 

[DCTransitFilms]

3284 LaGuardia to JFK/Far Rockaway

3333 JFK/Far Rockaway returned to Spring Creek

9140, 9327, 9329 delivered to JFK

4173, 4233 retired from JFK

4052 was involved in an accident today. Likely will be retired.

[New Yorker 2001]

On 4/15/2024 at 7:55 PM, DCTransitFilms said:

3284 LaGuardia to JFK/Far Rockaway

3333 JFK/Far Rockaway returned to Spring Creek

9140, 9327, 9329 delivered to JFK

4173, 4233 retired from JFK

4052 was involved in an accident today. Likely will be retired.

Yeah, saw the pics. This bus is toast. Most likely, they'll get another 2009 or 2010 NG from South Queens (aka JFK/FR Depot(s)) to replace 2009 Orion 7.501 NG Hybrid #4052.