smallspy Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 All I can say about your analysis for single-tracking is that you have no clue since it hasn't been tried there yet. Try single-tracking for large sections for overnight maintenance and see if 15 minute headways work... They don't. Check out Translink's twitter on "maintenance" nights where they single-track for large portions from 9 PM to end of service on the Expo Line. Gong show. If that's how it is every night for overnight maintenance, people just won't take it. (They're already fed up with the 9 PM onwards here.) Also, where do you get your facts that most of the crossovers are one-way only? Any one-way crossovers are paired with another not too far away. Other than one set (one on each side of a station) on the Airport branch of the Canada Line, and one set near Bridgeport Station, I can't actually think of any "one-way" crossovers (particularly ones not paired with one in the opposite direction). As for the analogy that less frequent service with bigger vehicles is better, it's also not. We had several trolley routes here that were converted to articulated operation, and the service was decreased from 3-4 minutes to 10 minutes in some cases, citing identical capacity (only during off-peak). Now it's a 10 minute wait between buses and everyone is complaining that they decreased service on the route (which they technically did). So what if you can carry more people per vehicle, it's frequency that people care more about. The last point pretty much sums up my reasoning for a Sheppard SUBWAY rather than LRT. Go west and you have the Wilson Yard (and ridership to York U), go east and you'll have a new area for a yard near the existing McCowan Yard. Leave it as is, then you continue to have no ridership. Add an LRT, still have no ridership because people won't want to switch stations just to continue to the Yonge Line and wait for packed trains to go downtown. Make it fully subway from Sheppard West to Scarborough Centre, you'll have ridership (even though you think you won't) and relief from the Yonge Line since you'll be able to connect passengers along the busy Sheppard corridor to the University Line and the Bloor-Danforth Line. This will also allow passengers to connect to Vaughan and travel to Scarborough (will be a pain when the Vaughan extension opens). Nobody believes me about the ridership. It'll be there if you extend the line. It'll stay exactly as is if you leave it as is (and could be worse with an LRT line on Sheppard East). Exactly. 30 minutes is more like it, and definitely not worth it for overnight service compared to 3-4 minute night buses. I'm getting told what is and isn't feasible by someone 3000 miles away, and who doesn't see how our subway runs on a daily basis. Nice. It's a little out-of-date, but here's a link to Toronto's subway track map. http://transit.toronto.on.ca/archives/maps/subwaytrack.gif Take a good look at it. There are additional scissors crossovers going in south of St Clair, south of College, and north of King. And while you're at it, take a good look at the various crossovers - you will note that they are almost all scissors crossovers. That means that the greatest distance that would needed to be traversed if running on a single-track is 3.6km from St Clair West to Glencairn (and can be run in less than 6 minutes), and most are considerably shorter than that. Now, admittedly I don't know what the station timings are on the Canada Line - my experience on it is pretty limited - but in any case, it's kind of irrelevant. Why? Because we're talking about the Toronto system, and its experiences are going to be far different than those in Vancouver. The equipment performs differently, is run differently, was planned differently, and hell, the system itself is older and will therefore need more maintenance on a year-to-year basis. As for the service, again, you're not here to see how things are run. The Yonge night bus is subject to wildly varying swings in traffic and ridership, and so it's just as common to see 5 buses in a row with a 20+ minute gap behind them as it is to see everything perfectly spaced. While a subway system is subject to its own set of variables, some of the bigger ones - like traffic, and traffic light timings - are removed from the equation. As for your comments about the Sheppard Line - again, you're not here. You don't see the ridership, or in some cases, lack thereof. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfitz Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 The thing is, what is on the eastbound side east of the platform? As you see in your photo, they actually constructed a short section of tunnel for the tail track. If anything like that has been built on the eastbound side, then the most cost effective way to remove it is to dig it up. Right there, you are in "why not just build a new platform?" territory and avoid the operational headaches of removing half of Don Mills station capacity. I should also point out that you will need to install a crossover for the LRT regardless of what you do which means making a significant excavation to the east of the station down to track level anyways. I'm not quite sure what your point is. There will of course have to be a significant excavation to drop in TBMs. However, the hole would have to be a lot bigger to both cover the cross-over and the platform extension. Half of Don Mills station capacity? How often do they use the second platform? I I see people commenting that the plan to use the opposite side for LRT is not correct, however no one can actually provide anything to back that up, and there is plenty of material to back up that they were planning to do it that way. Where's the evidence? I see comments that you don't have the clearance in the station. But looking at the photos of the unfinished portion of the platform, it's quite clear that there's a lot of clearance - far more than both stations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyfirenet Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 Half of Don Mills station capacity? How often do they use the second platform? It doesn't mater how often it's used now, it's the fact that you won't get it back until the line is extended east. You're imposing an unnecessary operating bottleneck on the line for a trivial convenience that can only be undone at extreme cost. The same applies to the Sheppard LRT since you will never be able to put in a second platform if it ever needs it. That's why it's best to have four platforms (Two subway. Two LRT) from day one. I'm not quite sure what your point is. There will of course have to be a significant excavation to drop in TBMs. However, the hole would have to be a lot bigger to both cover the cross-over and the platform extension. The increase in cost to create a launch hole that would also be big enough for an LRT station with a set of crossovers is not directly proportional to the increase in size. In other words, if you are already committed to make a significant excavation down there and the cost of the excavation is the majority cost in station construction, then you might as well do the right thing the first time and build a separate station for the LRT line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed T. Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 How would it be more complex than current subway operations? Because trains in one direction hold up trains in the other direction. So if a westbound train is five minutes late, this will make the eastbound train five minutes late because the westbound train won't clear the singletrack. On the other hand, if the eastbound train is early, letting it go through the singletrack ahead of its turn will make the westbound train very, very much later. If you want to run a single-track section on tight timing, every train had better be on time to take its turn. Since this implies perfection, the likely result will be trains often taking 10+ minute pauses to wait their turn through the single-track. As I recally, this insistence on every train being on time to slot into the schedule is what killed the Yonge-University/Bloor-Danforth interline. It worked well in theory, but poorly in practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayone Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 There was a collision today involving two cars and a Nova Bus at Yonge and York Mills that happened around 2:50 pm. Apparently car 1 crashed into car 2, which then crashed into the front of the stopped westbound Nova Bus. I thought the number was 8484, but then I found out on the wiki that it hasn't even been delivered I first came across this news on Twitter and then watched the live report on cp24 at 5pm, but no other news media has reported on it, not even cp24 online Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xtrazsteve Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 There was a collision today involving two cars and a Nova Bus at Yonge and York Mills that happened around 2:50 pm. Apparently car 1 crashed into car 2, which then crashed into the front of the stopped westbound Nova Bus. I thought the number was 8484, but then I found out on the wiki that it hasn't even been delivered I first came across this news on Twitter and then watched the live report on cp24 at 5pm, but no other news media has reported on it, not even cp24 online Delivery is probably only around 8470 run now with 8466 being the newest in service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayone Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 Sorry I could not get the number Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xtrazsteve Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 Sorry I could not get the number Maybe you misread it. Could be 8464 which was on the 165. Only lasted one week of service before getting hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayone Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 Maybe you misread it. Could be 8464 which was on the 165. Only lasted one week of service before getting hit. The last digit looked like a 4 to me. Were there any other Novas on 96 and 165 with its bus number ending with 4? If not, 8464 could be the one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38 Highland Creek Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 The last digit looked like a 4 to me. Were there any other Novas on 96 and 165 with its bus number ending with 4? If not, 8464 could be the one. Saw it on CP24. That is 8464. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayone Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 Saw it on CP24. That is 8464. Transsee says it's on 84 right now. So all is well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leylandvictory2 Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 Most accident s are relatively minor. May be a scratch or two Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfitz Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 If you have Yonge nightbuses running so late that they're 20 minutes apart when they are supposed to be 3-4 minutes then the dispatcher (control supervisor) needs to be fired. Weren't they all fired after provincial Tories cut all the funding for the TTC in 1996? I didn't think that they'd restored overnight supervisors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 Weren't they all fired after provincial Tories cut all the funding for the TTC in 1996? I didn't think that they'd restored overnight supervisors. Malvern and Arrow monitor night routes but I find if your a bus from another division other than those they couldn't care less about you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leylandvictory2 Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 they do care about you. I got stuck because of the marathon, they called me up to find out what's going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallspy Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 Seeing as I cannot send you a PM, I'll put it here. I remember you criticized me before when I commented on HSR route changes that I wasn't there, and I think I remember telling you that I grew up there (Hamilton area). Then you found out that everything I pulled my info from was in a public report and that I did know what I was talking about and I never heard from you about it again. When I lived there, I was in Toronto a lot, and know EXACTLY how the system runs, and I still have good friends and family there that use the subway everyday and know the current ridership levels. Besides, I was there for 3 weeks in June/July (and come more or less yearly) and rode the system daily at various times of day. Stop with telling me that because I'm 3000 km away that I don't know what I'm talking about. If it takes 6 minutes to get from one station to the next, then 15 minute service is the absolute max (12 is pushing it, and I don't think they'd do 13 or 14). But guaranteed that will never happen since there's no way they will shut down tiny sections each night to do maintenance -- it'll be long sections, or you'll neglect the regular wear-and-tear maintenance due to the extra usage. As for nightbus service, I know that you add in traffic issues etc. and can have other issues, but having a 30 minute subway vs. a 3-4 minute (even if there's a big gap to 10-ish minutes) bus is a much better option for commuters. If you have Yonge nightbuses running so late that they're 20 minutes apart when they are supposed to be 3-4 minutes then the dispatcher (control supervisor) needs to be fired. You're more than welcome to send me a PM at any time. You may be right about that Hamilton discussion - I honestly don't recollect what was said at the time, and I don't catalogue mine and others responses to various threads. In any case, going back to the 24 hour subway service, and your assertion that it will never happen - please, don't take my word on it. The TTC themselves have talked about this being a very serious possibility once the signal system on the YUS has been upgraded. But you seem to know better than the TTC, and any of their various employees, past and present, who have been working on various projects in order to get to that point - so we'll just accept your word as gospel and be done with it. Ideally, yes, a more frequent service is superior. But when the less frequent service will provide a higher overall capacity, and better service reliability, isn't it better to take advantage of it? Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfitz Posted November 13, 2015 Report Share Posted November 13, 2015 I can't imagine that people are going to accept no subway at 9 pm on a Sunday. Can you imagine the mess after a Leafs or Jays game, let alone all the other riders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman Posted November 13, 2015 Report Share Posted November 13, 2015 they do care about you. I got stuck because of the marathon, they called me up to find out what's going on. I do 300, 1.5 trips to Kennedy on Sundays....I'm usually -20 at the end and they never bother with me. I usually go out of service in time to make it in time for my regular routes first trip, subway already open anyways....I guess I'm supposed to call them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xtrazsteve Posted November 13, 2015 Report Share Posted November 13, 2015 I do 300, 1.5 trips to Kennedy on Sundays....I'm usually -20 at the end and they never bother with me. I usually go out of service in time to make it in time for my regular routes first trip, subway already open anyways....I guess I'm supposed to call them. Do you usually end at Kipling or Kennedy? I know some of the Bmount buses end at Kipling which is strange cause they have to deadhead all the way back. I seen may buses get stuck and end up crossing Yonge around 9:30am or even later. When they have detours, there are still 300s running NIS around Yonge area at 9:50am. The 300 is absolutely the worst route. Always late and bunched after 25+ minute gaps. All the festivals/road closures makes it work. There could be 2 or 3 detours on the same day. I don't know how much they care. I was on a Queensway bus once with a detour. The op was going to go straight through Islington EB instead of turning left cause he didn't receive any messages. Another op at Islington told him he must turn and all the people are waiting on the NE corner otherwise he would have missed all 50 riders waiting there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallspy Posted November 13, 2015 Report Share Posted November 13, 2015 I don't think I ever said 24 hour service would NEVER happen, I'm pretty sure I just said that there would be many more problems than it's worth if it did. I don't have influence over their decisions, nor do I know the internal discussions -- all I'm saying is that they'd be neglecting maintenance, or would have to figure out some new way to do maintenance between in-service trains without power down, and that while single-tracking is handy, it's not feasible for running frequent service. New York does run 24 hour service on some lines, but I have no idea how it runs since I've never been there (and don't know anyone there). Maybe I'll see if there's a subforum somewhere to find out. I suspect it's because of their many "passing track" sections, but I'll have to look. The Canada Line here ran 24 hours several days during the Olympics, but they didn't single-track. They just didn't do maintenance those nights. Maybe the best way to tackle the 24 hour issue would be to run all night Friday and all night Saturday (the busiest times, I assume, for parties and such), and start maintenance early (8:00 or 9:00 PM) on Sunday. That would be a good compromise. So essentially I'm saying run from 6 AM Friday to 9 PM Sunday, then do maintenance till 6 AM Monday with a single-tracking system such as what's used in Vancouver. And you think that they hadn't thought about all of the various problems that *could* happen? Did you not think that this is why we pay people to make these decisions? Your contention seems to be that the people running the TTC (and maybe by extension, all of the various transit agencies) are mindless twits who don't have the slightest clue as to what goes on. I have news for you - they do, and they know far better than any of us. Every single decision has to be weighted amongst various factors, not the least of which is cost, both capital and ongoing. Just because you don't necessarily see all of the various factors involved in making a decision doesn't mean that they've made a dumb one. Would they be "neglecting maintenance" by running all-night service, to use your term? If they feel that they can perform all of the necessary maintenance while single-tracking a section, then obviously they wouldn't be, would they? And they then wouldn't suggest that it was then possible to do. I can't imagine that people are going to accept no subway at 9 pm on a Sunday. Can you imagine the mess after a Leafs or Jays game, let alone all the other riders. Even ending service at midnight on a Sunday is a bit of a shit-show at times. The only reason why those nightly closures on Yonge north of Eglinton have gotten as smooth as they have is because they've had many years of practice now, and because people now have it built into their routines. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman Posted November 13, 2015 Report Share Posted November 13, 2015 Do you usually end at Kipling or Kennedy? I know some of the Bmount buses end at Kipling which is strange cause they have to deadhead all the way back. I seen may buses get stuck and end up crossing Yonge around 9:30am or even later. When they have detours, there are still 300s running NIS around Yonge area at 9:50am. The 300 is absolutely the worst route. Always late and bunched after 25+ minute gaps. All the festivals/road closures makes it work. There could be 2 or 3 detours on the same day. I don't know how much they care. I was on a Queensway bus once with a detour. The op was going to go straight through Islington EB instead of turning left cause he didn't receive any messages. Another op at Islington told him he must turn and all the people are waiting on the NE corner otherwise he would have missed all 50 riders waiting there. Dead head out to start at Kennedy...supposed to finish at Kipling but never make it that far. There is absolutely no communication. More detours again this weekend. Great.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T3G Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 World class cities use subways and subway-like technology. Do you happen to know that for a fact? Berlin, Vienna, and Prague, among countless others, use subway and tram technology together. Are you implying that these and more are not world class cities because the subway is not the exclusive type of transportation on high ridership routes in that city? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfitz Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 Please explain when I EVER said NO SERVICE after 9 PM on Sunday?????? Why do so many people on this forum put word in my posts that aren't there?????????? Good grief. I said to START MAINTENANCE at 9 PM on Sunday, not END SERVICE at 9 PM on Sunday. If there are any special events such as Blue Jays or Leafs games, you would obviously make accommodations. But they do make weekend closures now when there are Blue Jays games and they deal with it. I'm not sure what you are proposing then ... they do maintenance all the time when the subway is open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xtrazsteve Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 I'm not sure what you are proposing then ... they do maintenance all the time when the subway is open. I was going to quote his post but... forget it. They can't replace tracks and have a work car in the way while running subway. Start maintenance (that they do overnight) means shut down subway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archer Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 Obviously no one rides Sheppard since it DOESN'T GO ANYWHERE. And I stopped reading right there, because you are absolutely wrong. That trains on the line right now are near capacity with standing loads in the morning rush (PM rush isn't quite so heavy as it tends to be more spread out time-wise). Yes, there is room to add more trains to the line in the headway if needed so it isn't at capacity like Line 1 is, but to say that no one uses that line is a load of steaming crap. Once again, stop talking about the system here from half a continent away like you have any idea of what is actually happening here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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