TTC being privatized?

[The Canadian Roadgeek]

All my research on you in this thread turns out your a 100% bullshitter. anyone else agree?

FYI, I've seen how private transit works, but YOU have not. I've lived in a city with private transit for 11 years, and been to countries and places with private transit. YOU have no right to say how a private transit does not work untill (typo on purpose to mimic) you have experienced how private transit fails. Have you lived in Auckland, Melbourne, London, Vancouver? (the only 4 cities that seem to exist in the world to you guys, other than Toronto). Go live there for 11 years before coming back and write this. I won't mind sending you an e-mail in 2022 reminding you to come back to Toronto and I bet the subway system map would look more or less the same (except the YUS line extension).

And please refrain from using foul language on this forum. You're just making the public TTC look even worse and disgusting.

And private buses tend to be cleaner. Take a look at Miller buses north of Steeles. Tend to be cleaner than TTC buses.

[Orion VIII]

I suggest you stop using Hong Kong as an example. We've been through this before. The density of the built form in Hong Kong is something like six times that of Toronto, and thus there are more people living in a given area, allowing transit to be profitable. I can't think of any private company that would be willing to buy and operate the TTC given the density of the city.

[Articulated]

The biggest determination of the amount of ridership on any transit system is the level of service. People will flock to a standard bus that comes every 10 minutes or better than wait for a bus that comes every 30 minutes but has a foot and back massage built into all the seats.

It would be nice to have fancy stations in Toronto but we don't care that much. The Sheppard subway had 0.5% of its total budget devoted to artwork at the stations, while the upcoming Spadina extension will have 1%. Private companies can make things look fancier because it's a way to superficially "improve" service, by tricking people into thinking the service they receive is better. Capital costs are nothing compared to the actual running costs.

The cost to buy a single low-floor diesel bus is around $500,000 based on all the latest contracts (it's actually lower, with most bids between $420,000 and $480,000). Using the $500,000 under an assumed 12 year lifespan, this puts the capital costs of one vehicle at $41,666 per year. As per the TTC's service improvements 2007 document (the latest available on the TTC's website), the 8 Broadview route which ran 18 hours a day using one bus, costs $2000 per weekday to operate. Multiply by 365 days in a year works out to $730,000 per year. The operational costs are much higher than the capital costs for a transit system. Adding 1% to capital costs, be it fancier looking vehicles or fancier looking stations, is easy and cheap to make it appear like you have better service. Adding 1% to operational costs (for the TTC, this would be putting 17 more buses on the road during rush hours) costs a hell of a lot more. Guess which is more useful? Guess what brings more people out of their cars and onto public transit? Private companies cut corners on the operational standpoint - the example of Vancouver's Canada Line is the big example here - because the real money to be saved comes from cutting operations down.

[The Canadian Roadgeek]

I suggest you stop using Hong Kong as an example. We've been through this before. The density of the built form in Hong Kong is something like six times that of Toronto, and thus there are more people living in a given area, allowing transit to be profitable. I can't think of any private company that would be willing to buy and operate the TTC given the density of the city.

I'm not comparing service frequency. I'm comparing the stations and the trains. I'm not comparing the software (service) but the hardware (stations, etc.) Look at that. We're in the 2011, wake up! We're not in the 1970s. For all I've known (I've brought many visitors from China and Hong Kong and Japan) to Toronto, and their review on the TTC is negative, and they're saying it's really behind. If you can get the government to advance our technology 40 years, I'll shut up and let the government run this. Do it!

We're all laughing at the TTCs right now, those visitors and the new immigrants from Asian and European countries. We thought North Americans can do better than this.

[rob9701]

All my research on you in this thread turns out your a 100% bullshitter. anyone else agree?

He's probably "right" about some things. The problem is that the Hong Kong-Canada comparison has to go beyond just the operation of a public transit system. There are plenty of other economic and cultural differences - and that doesn't mean the Hong Kong way of doing things is wrong. It could even be better. The reality we have though is that there is a certain way of doing business in Canada that has evolved over decades and this can't be undone overnight.

It leads to the interesting prospects of the long term effects of immigration. Do we see in future generations an overhaul of institutions that we always thought ran so well by people from other countries and cultures coming in who may have been doing it better all along?

Are we Microsoft and are other parts of the world Apple? We're probably a bit arrogant to think we are the best at everything.

[The Canadian Roadgeek]

so your offended by me saying bullshit? your insulting TTC workers even worse in my book buddy.

Just keep on going, your only digging a hole buddy.

Oh no, I'm totally NOT offended. Sorry to disappoint you there buddy. But I said "to refrain using vulgar language" was for your own good before you get banned (but I doubt so since this CPTDB is overpopulated with drivers).

According to CPTDB rules,

Posts containing any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, and/or invasive of a person's privacy may be removed. However, we also reserve the right to remove any post for any reason.

[Orion VIII]

I'm not comparing service frequency. I'm comparing the stations and the trains. I'm not comparing the software (service) but the hardware (stations, etc.) Look at that. We're in the 2011, wake up! We're not in the 1970s. For all I've known (I've brought many visitors from China and Hong Kong and Japan) to Toronto, and their review on the TTC is negative, and they're saying it's really behind. If you can get the government to advance our technology 40 years, I'll shut up and let the government run this. Do it!

We're all laughing at the TTCs right now, those visitors and the new immigrants from Asian and European countries. We thought North Americans can do better than this.

I'm not comparing service frequency either.

The ability to profit off the operation of local transit relies directly on the number of people willing to use it, and the number one factor that decides transit ridership is the presence and proximity of those people. Toronto simply does not have enough people in concentrated areas in order to allow public transit to be profitable.

[general682002]

And private buses tend to be cleaner. Take a look at Miller buses north of Steeles. Tend to be cleaner than TTC buses.

That was the Region's request to tell all contractors to have interior clean every night. Yes it's a bonus. Can-ar buses was never cleaned at all until Veolia took over, then it had a clean interior!

[Articulated]

I'm not comparing service frequency. I'm comparing the stations and the trains. I'm not comparing the software (service) but the hardware (stations, etc.) Look at that. We're in the 2011, wake up! We're not in the 1970s. For all I've known (I've brought many visitors from China and Hong Kong and Japan) to Toronto, and their review on the TTC is negative, and they're saying it's really behind. If you can get the government to advance our technology 40 years, I'll shut up and let the government run this. Do it!

We're all laughing at the TTCs right now, those visitors and the new immigrants from Asian and European countries. We thought North Americans can do better than this.

It's unrealistic conservatives like you that blindly cut operating budgets hoping for magical cost savings and "efficiencies" to appear that is the reason we can no longer afford good technology.

[D. DeLarge]

As a matter of fact, my grandpa was a bus operator in the 1950s to early 2000s. When I was still ~10 years old, I was on his bus and I see these stuff. It's not stressful as YOU would think, even though he works overnight sometimes. And also, I joyride quite a fair bit, so I'm with a TTC driver many times. I sit in the front seats all the time, you don't think I spend enough time with a TTC driver?

And you live in the Qunite area anyways (population: roughly 10% of Toronto, 200,000 people). Go ride your rural buses instead of adding collections to your list of stupid posts, and making a fool of yourself.

One, you were 10 years old, you couldn't possibly have remembered every single thing that went on. Two, you weren't the one driving the bus. Three, you probably thought(think) it was a fun job.

In all the time I've been riding transit I don't remember seeing a single assault or really bad incident involving a driver, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Take a look in the media: "bus driver assaulted with knife, bus driver shot at, booth collector robbed with shotgun, bus hit with pumpkin".

If you don't care about the station, you'll surely care about the trains.

A Tokyo train for the Fukutoshin Line.

Versus a TTC train, oh, isn't that nice.

Right, let's compare a nice clean train in perfect lighting to a crappy shot of a dirty T1 in a tunnel. Way to make a comparison.

Why not one of those nice publicity shots of a Toronto Rocket?

Nice active route map for the 2011 Toronto Rocket. And uh... Why's Kennedy lit up?

An active route map is already made in ~2001. A private company can do this stuff 10 years ago. Nice try, TTC. And your active route map looks like a piece of elementary school prototype made in the 1980s.

Right, let's compare the map on a prototype train that isn't even in service yet and is still in the process of being debugged.

Do most riders care about a fancy light up map, because I don't and I'm a rider. It's a fancy waste of money, considering it would have to be above the doors on every car.

And wow, you guys won't even let us Torontonians voice our opinion. Your Keep TTC Public website is censored, and the comments have to be approved to be publish. And guess what comments are published? The ones (mostly) that supports keeping transit public! (I posted twice, each with different completely opinions, and only the one supporting for keeping it public got published)... And you even block rating and comments on your YouTube videos!

Talk about communism, your freedom of speech and censoring method for keeping TTC public is worse than China. I don't know why this is allowed in Canada.

And if it's that stressful to take this job. Why the heck are you guys here talking about this? Go get some sleep or spend time with your family while you're saying you're working overtime and NO time with family! You're wasting your own holiday time on this CPTDB. You'll just be asking for more after this, and that will draw more money from us as riders and taxpayers.

I don't know what you're trying to prove here. Are you trying to convince a group full of transit enthusiasts and operators that they're overpaid, and because they're overpaid the TTC is a shamble of a system? Because there are far more other factors (political, governmental, budgetary, workers rights/labour laws, all both past and present) to consider when questioning why the system is as it is today. And that they're all communists against free speech because some Union-run website won't let the public bash them? Think about it.

You know, you can still stop typing now and save yourself further embarrassment.

[Orion VIII]

(but I doubt so since this CPTDB is overpopulated with drivers).

Excuse me? Are you suggesting that the CPTDB Administration has some sort of favouritism for transit employees? I am rather offended by this.

The only favouritism I'm exercising here is towards intelligent posts and against unintelligent ones. Perhaps it happens that the transit employees on this forum are better able to form research-backed arguments than others.

This absolutely blows me away.

[63 Ossington]

Sorry to ruin your day, Mr.Roadgeek, but you too have used the "BS" word as well. (Not to mention spewed tons of it)

For something as unprofitable as public transit (especially in Toronto with such low population density), the government should rightfully be running it, as even when a route is clearly operating at a loss, that area in the city has to have reasonable access to transit. That is the responsibility of the government to ensure proper public service there. As for private companies, what happens to unprofitable stores? They cease operations on them. My neighbourhood Rogers Video store didn't rake in enough money one year. Whoa, it's gone now! The government's purpose with regards to public services is to serve EVERYONE. Private companies only care about PROFITABILITY as profits are all they run on. And when that is screwed up, and they need (and get) a boost by the government like GM, everyone cries foul as they are a private company eating up public dollars. The government is obligated to run those unprofitable routes because the residents there pay taxes as well. If it were a private company, it doesn't matter if the residents pay taxes or not as the private company does not receive any of that money. Mr. Roadgeek, if there was no transit service anywhere near your commuting areas due to unprofitability, what would your thoughts be on that? ("Whoa, gosh darn it, I wish it was still public so I could get a ride!")

Also, public transit is not communism as you still have to pay your own money to use it. (In communism, isn't your money also the bus driver's money? And also the next guy's money? That's assuming money still exists in that world.)

Also just to note, I am usually satisfied by the TTC services offered. The frequencies in my area has improved drastically from 10 years ago and are relatively in order. When people complain about "lateness", its mostly because they waited 10 minutes which is still pretty good, when you think about it. With private companies, they'll try to maximize efficiency by trying to ensure that every vehicle is saturated at all times to carry the most people with the least vehicles. Whoa, sardines, anyone? Its just like cash registers at supermarkets; unless its really crazy, they make do with 4 active registers. What do you think will happen to buses in the lesser populated areas?

Also your argument using the examples of station quality is moot as frankly being just an Average Joe (Not TheAverageJoe) and not an expert in architecture, they are the same, just without platform barriers. And the trains... well they work, don't they?

And about the lighted maps; It does show you where you're headed doesn't it? And FYI, Kennedy is lit up as it is an INTERCHANGE Station, as it is coloured the same as the other interchange stations.

[rob9701]

One, you were 10 years old, you couldn't possibly have remembered every single thing that went on. Two, you weren't the one driving the bus. Three, you probably thought(think) it was a fun job.

In all the time I've been riding transit I don't remember seeing a single assault or really bad incident involving a driver, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Take a look in the media: "bus driver assaulted with knife, bus driver shot at, booth collector robbed with shotgun, bus hit with pumpkin".

Right, let's compare a nice clean train in perfect lighting to a crappy shot of a dirty T1 in a tunnel. Way to make a comparison.

Why not one of those nice publicity shots of a Toronto Rocket?

Right, let's compare the map on a prototype train that isn't even in service yet and is still in the process of being debugged.

Do most riders care about a fancy light up map, because I don't and I'm a rider. It's a fancy waste of money, considering it would have to be above the doors on every car.

I don't know what you're trying to prove here. Are you trying to convince a group full of transit enthusiasts and operators that they're overpaid, and because they're overpaid the TTC is a shamble of a system? Because there are far more other factors (political, governmental, budgetary, workers rights/labour laws, all both past and present) to consider when questioning why the system is as it is today. And that they're all communists against free speech because some Union-run website won't let the public bash them? Think about it.

You know, you can still stop typing now and save yourself further embarrassment.

But Dan I think a person can still be here as an enthusiast without having a special-interests type of attitude. The "head out of your ass"-types of responses, the yelling down of dissenting opinion is giving this place that look of a special-interest driven forum.

And I do accept that every time I come on here to read something. But the way some people respond, and what seems to be an eagerness to ban certain people over others makes this place look increasingly political.

Maybe it is the times, as the Urban Toronto site seems to be going the same way. Polarization is not a good thing, and it's worth noting that for some reason Rob Ford is the mayor. Right or wrong there is a huge amount of dissenting opinion out there. Stifling it or labeling its proponents as quacks or idiots doesn't change the ballot they cast. Not everyone is approaching this forum as a student in urban planning or a bus driver. Life experiences influence what people think. If the goal is to focus on loading up the board with frontline-staff that goal should be advertised and the rest of us can take a lesser role.

[buschic]

~~SNIP~~

I personally dont give a rats ass about your beloved hong kong stations & trains, you love it so much go LIVE THERE!!!

btw, while we're on the subject of Chinese transit, have you seen the LACK of HUMAN RIGHTS? or the LACK of accessibility? or the HORRIBLE way the employees are treated? I know because I have many disabled friends there, as well as some of my friends are HK transit workers..

also its a TOTALLY different FUNDING STRUCTURE!!!

(sorry to those who hate my capitalizing things, but with nothing else seems to be getting through to this guy!)

Raise your hand if you're tired of the ol' "The stations overseas in Hong Kong etc, are better than the TTC's stations! For shame! For shame!"

*Raises hand*

Frankly, most people wouldn't give a rats' ass about how nice or ugly a station is if the service isn't reliable in the first place. I hate the yucko green of St. George and St. Patrick, but I put up with it because the service is decent, and gets me where I want to go in a timely fashion. Function over form.

I'd reply more, but apparently we're all TTC operators on this thread, so I guess I need to go drive an H4 or something...

hand & white cane raised so high they touch my ceiling in my apartment out here in 30 Lambton land..

(I'm betting my cheers could be heard through the streets of Toronto)

As a matter of fact, my grandpa was a bus operator in the 1950s to early 2000s. When I was still ~10 years old, I was on his bus and I see these stuff. It's not stressful as YOU would think, even though he works overnight sometimes. And also, I joyride quite a fair bit, so I'm with a TTC driver many times. I sit in the front seats all the time, you don't think I spend enough time with a TTC driver?""

((This is 2011, its called times change, the work environment is VERY different now, your view is skewed too, as you were a child! what kid can look at his 'cool' grandpa objectively? come on, dont start trying to pull the sappy gushy stories outta your ass)) ((I can tell you many more stories of growing up around my "adopted" family, seeing them get the crap beaten outta them, & treated like waste by management, 3 month Strike/Lockout in 1998-99 (Nov/3rd/98 - Jan/26/99) that destroyed so many HSR drivers in hamilton, drivers lost their homes, marriages, morale was so bad after that strike that there were 6 suicides during & shortly after that strike))

And you live in the Qunite area anyways (population: roughly 10% of Toronto, 200,000 people). Go ride your rural buses instead of adding collections to your list of stupid posts, and making a fool of yourself. (((( its spelled QUINTE, or Kingston or Belleville)))

""And if it's that stressful to take this job. Why the heck are you guys here talking about this? Go get some sleep or spend time with your family while you're saying you're working overtime and NO time with family! You're wasting your own holiday time on this CPTDB.""

( DEFENDING themselves from abusive people like you!)

""An active route map is already made in ~2001. A private company can do this stuff 10 years ago. Nice try, TTC. And your active route map looks like a piece of elementary school prototype made in the 1980s.""

(( if you think you can do better than by all means do it, take it to TTC, Go make deputation at a commission meeting, instead of being brave behind the keyboard!))

""And wow, you guys won't even let us Torontonians voice our opinion. Your Keep TTC Public website is censored, and the comments have to be approved to be publish. And guess what comments are published? The ones (mostly) that supports keeping transit public! (I posted twice, each with different completely opinions, and only the one supporting for keeping it public got published)... And you even block rating and comments on your YouTube videos!""

(Yes, to stop trash from spewing hatred on comments sections)

""Talk about communism, your freedom of speech and censoring method for keeping TTC public is worse than China. I don't know why this is allowed in Canada""

(( then go live there if you think its so good!!)).

[902]

Are you guys ashamed?

Private companies can afford to make better stations. Whereas under a government, we're limited to limited funds. And where we have to actually cut corners. And all 6,000 operators hogging over the resources isn't helping either.

And totally agree with D40-90, if you're so unhappy and so stressed with your job. QUIT IT. If you can't take the stress, you're not deserved to be paid that much. Can't stress that enough (pun intended). And don't complain about your job here.

So since you claim to know so much about transit in China, tell me...what are the wages like over there compared to here? Maybe it's just me but maybe people around here like living in a house bigger then a shoebox. Maybe you'd be happy with making 1 dollar a day...we wont stand for it! China is one of the main reasons that Canada is in an economic meltdown with lots of jobs going there because they pay their workers so little.

You can't compare the TTC with Hong Kong as they are two very different systems in two countries that have different ways of doing things.

Why are you fighting over what bus drivers make? Why do you have a problem with it? I don't know what you do for a living but instead of complaining that they make too much, maybe you should be fighting for a higher wage. Look at the cost of living here. Usually when cost of living goes up, so do the wages but that doesn't seem to be the case here in Canada, or the United States for that matter. Trust me, TTC drivers are not overpaid. IMO I think everybody should be getting a higher wage just to be able to live here.

[buschic]

Just a little fyi to you "The Canadian Roadgeek" You have recieved a VERY RARE thing from me, I've been here in CPTDB over 10 years, I've been a Transit fan longer than youve been on this great planet, & I have been around Tranit operators longer than youve been alive, You have less than 180 posts currently on this board, & you have the audacity to come on here spewing the vitrol you do? the incredibly outrageous garbage your spewing, the bashing of very hard working people who take time out of their day, & on the goodness of their hearts actually respond to your whining!

You have achieved something NO ONE on this forum has been able to achieve from me, I have BLOCKED you, I am ignoring ALL your posts, because frankly, I'm tired of hearing the same crap in different ways, repeatedly.

bye, little troll..

[Waiting for 30 Minutes]

Roadgeek, are you aware of how Hong Kong or Japan has been developed compared to cities in Canada? Did you take into account WHY private transit has been more successful overseas? Have you seen how dense the cities overseas are developed compared to the largely suburban areas in Canada? Also: function over form.

If you're dissatisfied with the way things are, run for public office, or donate to one in public office who supports your cause. But that being said, who knows how many people will take your ideas as not crazy or shallowly based on comparisons with Hong Kong and Japan.

[The Canadian Roadgeek]

It's not just me who hates the TTC.

. The government way of doing things.

Sorry to ruin your day, Mr.Roadgeek, but you too have used the "BS" word as well. (Not to mention spewed tons of it)

BS is an acronym that can stand for many things. It does not have to be a vulgar word. Whereas Mr. MSM however, it was spelt full out. So I'm sorry to ruin your day 63 Ossington. And in fact, BS as a vulgar word is the third last of the list of BS on Wikipedia. Don't believe me? Check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BS

So you're saying... the government's purpose is to serve EVERYONE. Have they been successful doing that? No, maybe it's time to hand it over to a private company and let them take the profit. You call walking 1 km during off-peak hours on Sunday as "serving everyone" when a government runs it. I don't think a private company can do worse than that.

When people complain about "lateness", its mostly because they waited 10 minutes which is still pretty good, when you think about it.

Oh really. I was on the 100 Flemingdon Park the other day at around 11:15 AM, and the poor woman there with her infant child stood in the cold for 30 minutes (as she claims that she has been standing there since 10:45 AM), and there has been no buses coming by when the TTC promises 10 minutes per bus. And there wasn't any accidents, road closures, bad weather along the route. And she's not the only one. I've been through waiting for the TTC for 45 minutes when they promised 5 minutes a bus. And again, no apparent reason along the route.

But communism is when the government owns the transit system. Well, the Western world still considers China as a communist country, and their government owned transit system, you still need to pay your fare. So isn't that wonderful? Exactly the same as the TTC.

And that was one of the public shots of the Toronto Rocket. It's on Wikipedia. Now the whole world gets to see how TTC is behind 40 years.

And no, the stations aren't the same. They're well lit, almost every corner, even though not much people might be using that area, is brightly lit with white LED lights, when the TTC stations are dimly lit, using barely adequate at the DWA with glowy miserable yellow-orange light. And not to mention the platform width. I feel like I'm going to fall into the tracks when it's crowded. People are forced to walk on the yellow danger zone on the platform because it's simply too narrow. Well that'll never happen in a privately owned system, at least the Asian ones that I have witnessed so far.

Kennedy is not even on the route of the line that the Rocket is serving (YUS, unless YUS somehow bends after Finch and goes to Kennedy as an extension), so why is it even lit up? It's trying to confuse the average passenger and that's not an intelligent thing to do.

You don't light up interchange stations. You circle them (the TTC way) or you just simply put a long round rectangle (or something like that), not to light it up like the rest of the stations on the YUS line.

I personally dont give a rats ass about your beloved hong kong stations & trains, you love it so much go LIVE THERE!!!

I lived there for 11 years, seen and witnessed as the system improves everyday. And it's not just Hong Kong, some of the newer stations in Paris look pretty nice, Japanese stations look amazing, now even Mainland Chinese stations are superb, not to mention Taiwanese to go along with it. And Toronto? 9th largest (last checked it was 9th) metropolitan area on North America, and look at how it's done. 1970s style. Nothing improved since then. Still dimly lit, still that narrow platform that can only fit one overweighted person or three slim people like me, side-by-side, or two average person.

btw, while we're on the subject of Chinese transit, have you seen the LACK of HUMAN RIGHTS? or the LACK of accessibility? or the HORRIBLE way the employees are treated? I know because I have many disabled friends there, as well as some of my friends are HK transit workers..

Hong Kong operates differently than Mainland China, even though it is a part of the country, it's under the two-systems-one-country policy. They do get paid fairly well, not exceptionally high (like North America) nor are they paid minimum wage (which is set $28 HKD). Lack of accessibility? Go do some research before saying that. They've been implementing ways for the handicapped, for the blind, for the deaf, since the 1990s. They have marks on the floor to guide the blind people (the marks can be used with their cane), and they have audible sounds for escalators and elevators. They have platform screen doors. They have large and readable, colour-coded signs everywhere. They have automated barrier-free access for them. Warns the door is closing (actually gives a message in 3 languages and a long 9 beeps, which lasts ~7 seconds, unlike the TTC, dune-dune-dune three beeps, and bam it closes). Talk about the TTC. No money. Period. Sad and dry. All the TTC knows is the kneeling bus. Okay, that's cool, anything else?

Oh, if you talk about the MTR, they are treated pretty nicely, and the MTR is not simply Hong Kong, but Beijing and Shenzhen as well. But in TTC standards, maybe poorly because TTC workers are so overpaid.

And a funding structure is different because they're private. Right now the taxpayers including those who are motorists, pays everything of the system. When it's privatized, some of it comes from the company, and from the users themselves.

And hand and my snow shovel raised so high they touch the roof of my house in suburban Toronto. I'm betting my cheers could be heard through the streets of Toronto, whereas silent throughout the drivers' homes.

[BCT-3122-D800-10240]

(but I doubt so since this CPTDB is overpopulated with drivers).

WTF is your problem with this board having bus drivers on here? I was a bus enthusiest LONG before I became a driver for Transit. I think your comment is very rude and uncalled for.

[rob9701]

So since you claim to know so much about transit in China, tell me...what are the wages like over there compared to here? Maybe it's just me but maybe people around here like living in a house bigger then a shoebox. Maybe you'd be happy with making 1 dollar a day...we wont stand for it! China is one of the main reasons that Canada is in an economic meltdown with lots of jobs going there because they pay their workers so little.

You can't compare the TTC with Hong Kong as they are two very different systems in two countries that have different ways of doing things.

Why are you fighting over what bus drivers make? Why do you have a problem with it? I don't know what you do for a living but instead of complaining that they make too much, maybe you should be fighting for a higher wage. Look at the cost of living here. Usually when cost of living goes up, so do the wages but that doesn't seem to be the case here in Canada, or the United States for that matter. Trust me, TTC drivers are not overpaid. IMO I think everybody should be getting a higher wage just to be able to live here.

Fighting for a higher wage? Good luck with that one.

I work in the chemical industry and the majority of my coworkers (I'll say the vast majority these days) are recent immigrants. These people are very happy to be in Canada and very happy to have a job. They will take what is given them without negotiation. Absent a collective agreement we all end up with a pretty stagnant pay rate that can only really be moved by jumping companies every couple of years with the negative side effect of having to reset the vacation allotment and other perks that come with seniority.

The last place I worked had a time clock and we had people punch out at their usual time and then stay and do three hours overtime because they felt guilty that they hadn't done enough work in the day already. How is anyone supposed to compete with that?

On one morning a union set up along our driveways to hand out literature with the goal of starting a union in our plant. I watched workers (again mostly recent immigrants) exit the bus and actually climb a snowbank and walk through the prickly bushes to avoid being seen talking to these union people for fear that doing so could affect their employment in a negative way.

It would be nice if those public service unions could give us in the private sector a little bit of a bump, help us out a bit with some press. The chances of many folks in the private sector improving their lot in life through any sort of labour movement in this economy is slim to none. Any tips or advice that the ATU and OPSEU and the other lucky ones out there can give would be appreciated.

The most frustrating thing is that we could unionize and picket and the majority of consumers don't know or don't care. They will continue to find products (or alternate ones) when they shop. Just by the way things work out the ATU and other frontline government workers have a much better chance of getting whatever they want because they withdraw services and people suffer greatly. It's a great perk that is almost a license to print money.

[Waiting for 30 Minutes]

BS is an acronym that can stand for many things. It does not have to be a vulgar word. Whereas Mr. MSM however, it was spelt full out. So I'm sorry to ruin your day 63 Ossington. And in fact, BS as a vulgar word is the third last of the list of BS on Wikipedia. Don't believe me? Check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BS

Oh boy! Wikipedia links! Boy, do we trust you now.

[* Mr. Black *]

WTF is your problem with this board having bus drivers on here? I was a bus enthusiest LONG before I became a driver for Transit. I think your comment is very rude and uncalled for.

+1

I must admit, that this is a very interesting thread to read... But I cant be bothered to get my Blood Pressure up over it.... yet...

[The Canadian Roadgeek]

WTF is your problem with this board having bus drivers on here? I was a bus enthusiest LONG before I became a driver for Transit. I think your comment is very rude and uncalled for.

I have no problem with having bus drivers on here. I'm pointing out the truth that this board has a significant number of bus drivers. What's wrong with that? It's not rude, it's saying the truth. Many of your comments here are very rude and uncalled for in terms of the rest of the Torontonians. Most of the Torontonians think the same way, especially people who choose to drive because the TTC is not appealing.

Well, then, tell me another way to get money to fund the infrastructure, other than privatizing. The city is broke, the provincial government doesn't care, and the federal has too much other things to care about anyways. How else? Donations?

[BCT-3122-D800-10240]

I have no problem with having bus drivers on here. I'm pointing out the truth that this board has a significant number of bus drivers. What's wrong with that? It's not rude, it's saying the truth. Many of your comments here are very rude and uncalled for in terms of the rest of the Torontonians. Most of the Torontonians think the same way, especially people who choose to drive because the TTC is not appealing.

Huh? Where do I have rude comments on here? BTW, I do not drive for the TTC.

[The Canadian Roadgeek]

You have less than 180 posts currently on this board, & you have the audacity to come on here spewing the vitrol you do?

Posting on a forum is not a job, experience does not count.

Huh? Where do I have rude comments on here? BTW, I do not drive for the TTC.

Not necessarily you, but you as in the drivers / operators as a collective. Like someone said before, get your head out of your ***, or something like that. Go search for the previous posts and you'll see what I mean.