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South LRT Update


Mud

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Thats strange, Calgary shuttles 6 car U2s and 6 car SD160 from Anderson Garage to Haysboro storage with not problems (they may use half power though) and don't have the 3rd wire. Today I experienced driving a U2 (3 car in Calgary) with one of the south sub stations down for maintenance and the train performed very well. Later in the I drove a SD160 in the same area and I lost power, lights, bells and whistles were going off in my cab, I later used half power and still had some power issues. I ended up using 1/4 power and the train barley got up to 40km/hr as soon as I got to the other end of the block it performed normally.

Maybe ETSs SDs draw more power with the air conditioning systems.

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Thats strange, Calgary shuttles 6 car U2s and 6 car SD160 from Anderson Garage to Haysboro storage with not problems (they may use half power though) and don't have the 3rd wire.

I'm not sure about the mechanics behind why or why not the 3rd wire is needed, but there is at least one section between 76 Ave and South Campus that doesn't require "boosters" or a 3rd wire. Maybe it has something to do with a sections location relative to a substation, as 76 Ave and South Campus both have substations and is a kind of short distance between them, while the section section north from 76 Ave doesn't have another substation until University, and then from South Campus to Southgate (next substations) it is a good distance.

I assume that when Calgary moves 6 car trains it's during off peak?

I would imagine that a 4 car SD-160 could run. It's just it wouldn't be able to do it during the peaks hours when it's needed.

My understanding this is the case with 5 car U2's and the one 6 car U2 movement from DLM to Clareview I saw once or twice- it's possible, just not during peak hours when there's multiple trains in any given substation territory.

Of course, since Calgary doesn't run revenue service 4 car trains, ETS might not have been able to learn from Calgary's experience with the SD-160's.

And certainly, Edmonton's should have additional power draw for the A/C. They apparently should have a better heating system- warm wall. I have not noticed this the few times I've been in our SD-160's. It wouldn't be a stretch that Edmonton might have a better heating system in our cars regardless of warm wall or not. How many years did it take for CT to adopt the warm wall heating system on the D40LF's that ETS helped pioneer in 1998? :(

On another note, I was trying to find out what Frankfurt may or may not have in the way of a signal system... figuring there's at least a chance Edmonton's components may have been designed for their system, if that quote is indeed true.

While I didn't find what I was looking for, I did discover a book was recently published (Sept. 2008) on Frankfurt's U-Bahn network so that has been ordered!

Now to get my hands on a San Diego book, and I'll have publications on all systems with U2's... which are my favorite LRV... quite possibly favorite transit vehicle.

I'll let you guys know more about the book when it arrives!

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Shuttling the 6 LRV's is usually off peak, but only just. I've seen it done as early as around 6pm.

I'd suspect its probably due to the distance between substations, the area where they shuttle in Calgary is between the current main LRV facility and the storage facility, with only a short distance between. I'd imagine that just due to the uses that that particular area probably has more power available to it the the rest of the system. The newer extensions in Calgary have gotten a lot more put into them in terms of the number of substations, the extension to Crowfoot, which is about 4km, will have 4 sub stations along it (the existing one at Dalhousie tail track, then one at Sarcee Trail, one half way between Sarcee and Nose Hill Drive and another at the Crowfoot station)

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I assume that when Calgary moves 6 car trains it's during off peak?

Last week one rolled into Haysboro storage around 18:30ish and theres a few a day that do this

While I didn't find what I was looking for, I did discover a book was recently published (Sept. 2008) on Frankfurt's U-Bahn network so that has been ordered!

Can you let me know where you got the book? I would be interested in a copy?

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  • 2 weeks later...
Can you let me know where you got the book? I would be interested in a copy?

Sorry, didn't see this message until now.

http://www.robert-schwandl.de/frankfurt/

That link should help!

Anyways, back to signals....

Signals have sprout up just south of HSS. Kind of threw some of my early speculation out the window...

They are 3 light signals. It's very likely the bottom is a white lunar signal, while the top two are the regular red and green block signals.

So... as a bit of an update to my earlier post... yes, University crossovers does have all diverging routes indicated by lunar signals. One on each track at University Station, one on each track on the bridge.

Further, as you approach the turnout, a red arrow indicator shows the turnout position. Attached photos show a group of 4 signals on the bridge with the north facing signals having 3 lights which includes the lunar signal, while the south facing switches only have red and green lights. The other photo shows the red arrow signals. Also, note in this photograph the remnants of the University extensions first signal system- the bus shelter.

With only one track installed, and no signal system operational yet, a person was stationed at the switches and manually attached a flag to a train heading to University. If you didn't have the flag, you couldn't proceed.

I'm not sure what the small signal is now in the photo at HSS. I'm starting to think that the two light signal I posted earlier near the pedestrian crossing might in fact be a call on signal. We'll know when the name plates are installed (N or S for a call on signal protecting a crossing, BS or BN indicating a block signal). In that case, I'm not to sure what this small signal would be for, although, I still suspect it relates to crossings.

So, speaking of signals... I went out and took a photo of perhaps the most interesting pair of signals on the system. At Clareview Station the block signals look the same/ similar to everything else on the original line (remember, Clareview was built a few years after the initial system). The lunar signals are something 100% different, however. They consist of a square with 4 white lights. Each light indicates a switch, except that I believe only 2 of those whites lights per signal head are actually used. BN836 will use the two top lights for either the turnout to crossover to the southbound track, or for the turnout to enter DLM. BS836 will use either the top left signal by itself to indicate a turnout set to send a train south on the northbound track, or more commonly both left hand lights lit to indicate a route lined to head into DLM. In the case of BS836 to make use of the right hand lights there should theoretically be a turnout heading to the right!

BN836 could theoretically use the lower right light to indicate the turnout position at the north Belvedere turnout. I'm sure if it is wired up like this or not. This would be a rare movement to encounter. Most certainly, the lower left light is useless. as there is only one turnout a train could encounter that would diverge to the left.

I have attached a diagram showing all routing options and what the corresponding lunar signals should look like at BN and BS836.

Interestingly, at Belvedere BN630 and BS630 both feature lunar signals like the rest of the original LRT line (additional, individual smaller white lights below the main signals). Both signals would have been installed as part of the Clareview extension as track didn't go north of Belvedere as DLM didn't exist at the time. BN630's lunar signal indicates turnout position for a train to enter DLM from the south, while BN630's signal covers a crossover, and then the route into DLM from the south.

Attached are photos showing:

BN836 displaying a green with upper right lunar for a in service train to switch to the southbound track

BN and BS630

As another interesting note. All 3 of these signals (and others along the original line) appear to have a signal filled in below the green signal. I have no idea if ETS originally used this and later sealed it off, or if it was never needed by ETS, but was originally a part of this signal system that ETS apparently ended up with.

As a bonus: BN836 more or less all dark. Just a pretty lucky shot right between the signals changing.

I should probably write this up some more and stick it on Barp. There's some excellent write ups on Toronto's and New York's signal systems. Edmonton's pales in comparison to those, but, there are always references in city budgets to upgrade the signal system. Not sure if that means outright replacing signals, but it could be the system that exists today will be a thing of the past. Certainly modifications will be needed Downtown to allow more frequent train service if/ when NAIT is built, and even into the northeast as there will be an increased volume of train movements as trains will be needing to get to the NAIT line.

DSC07945.jpg

DSC07977.jpg

DSC00897.jpg

BN836DSC01028_December152008.jpg

BN836DSC01032_December152008.jpg

BN630DSC01016_December152008.jpg

BS630DSC01015_December152008.jpg

BSBN836routings.JPG

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  • 5 weeks later...
Sorry, didn't see this message until now.

http://www.robert-schwandl.de/frankfurt/

That link should help!

Anyways, back to signals....

Signals have sprout up just south of HSS. Kind of threw some of my early speculation out the window...

They are 3 light signals. It's very likely the bottom is a white lunar signal, while the top two are the regular red and green block signals.

So... as a bit of an update to my earlier post... yes, University crossovers does have all diverging routes indicated by lunar signals. One on each track at University Station, one on each track on the bridge.

Further, as you approach the turnout, a red arrow indicator shows the turnout position. Attached photos show a group of 4 signals on the bridge with the north facing signals having 3 lights which includes the lunar signal, while the south facing switches only have red and green lights. The other photo shows the red arrow signals. Also, note in this photograph the remnants of the University extensions first signal system- the bus shelter.

With only one track installed, and no signal system operational yet, a person was stationed at the switches and manually attached a flag to a train heading to University. If you didn't have the flag, you couldn't proceed.

I'm not sure what the small signal is now in the photo at HSS. I'm starting to think that the two light signal I posted earlier near the pedestrian crossing might in fact be a call on signal. We'll know when the name plates are installed (N or S for a call on signal protecting a crossing, BS or BN indicating a block signal). In that case, I'm not to sure what this small signal would be for, although, I still suspect it relates to crossings.

So, speaking of signals... I went out and took a photo of perhaps the most interesting pair of signals on the system. At Clareview Station the block signals look the same/ similar to everything else on the original line (remember, Clareview was built a few years after the initial system). The lunar signals are something 100% different, however. They consist of a square with 4 white lights. Each light indicates a switch, except that I believe only 2 of those whites lights per signal head are actually used. BN836 will use the two top lights for either the turnout to crossover to the southbound track, or for the turnout to enter DLM. BS836 will use either the top left signal by itself to indicate a turnout set to send a train south on the northbound track, or more commonly both left hand lights lit to indicate a route lined to head into DLM. In the case of BS836 to make use of the right hand lights there should theoretically be a turnout heading to the right!

BN836 could theoretically use the lower right light to indicate the turnout position at the north Belvedere turnout. I'm sure if it is wired up like this or not. This would be a rare movement to encounter. Most certainly, the lower left light is useless. as there is only one turnout a train could encounter that would diverge to the left.

I have attached a diagram showing all routing options and what the corresponding lunar signals should look like at BN and BS836.

Interestingly, at Belvedere BN630 and BS630 both feature lunar signals like the rest of the original LRT line (additional, individual smaller white lights below the main signals). Both signals would have been installed as part of the Clareview extension as track didn't go north of Belvedere as DLM didn't exist at the time. BN630's lunar signal indicates turnout position for a train to enter DLM from the south, while BN630's signal covers a crossover, and then the route into DLM from the south.

Attached are photos showing:

BN836 displaying a green with upper right lunar for a in service train to switch to the southbound track

BN and BS630

As another interesting note. All 3 of these signals (and others along the original line) appear to have a signal filled in below the green signal. I have no idea if ETS originally used this and later sealed it off, or if it was never needed by ETS, but was originally a part of this signal system that ETS apparently ended up with.

As a bonus: BN836 more or less all dark. Just a pretty lucky shot right between the signals changing.

I should probably write this up some more and stick it on Barp. There's some excellent write ups on Toronto's and New York's signal systems. Edmonton's pales in comparison to those, but, there are always references in city budgets to upgrade the signal system. Not sure if that means outright replacing signals, but it could be the system that exists today will be a thing of the past. Certainly modifications will be needed Downtown to allow more frequent train service if/ when NAIT is built, and even into the northeast as there will be an increased volume of train movements as trains will be needing to get to the NAIT line.

interesting signal system, clagarys is a lot different i think, well from what i know

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interesting signal system, clagarys is a lot different i think, well from what i know

Yup, we have ABS (automoic block signals) signals along the main line and interlocking signals at powered switch locations along the main line (double towers) One day if I have time, I'll take some pics and explan it to the Edmonton guys (and gals)

Sorry, didn't see this message until now.

Me Too!! :)

The new signal at Health Science looks identical to a Calgary Transit ABS signal!

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I was just going ask about where you got the book.

Yes.

Robert Schwandl does write some great books. Lots of picture, and a detailed descriptions of the system. Due to the cost, I usually can only buy a couple a year, since I spend a lot of money on Tramways and Urban Transit Magazine. I have the Metros in Britain, France, and Spain.

M. Parsons:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/091...andiegohistoric

Book on the San Diego Trolley

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Yes.

Robert Schwandl does write some great books. Lots of picture, and a detailed descriptions of the system. Due to the cost, I usually can only buy a couple a year, since I spend a lot of money on Tramways and Urban Transit Magazine. I have the Metros in Britain, France, and Spain.

I do plan to buy some more of his books after getting this Frankfurt book. My interest I suspect is going to mainly remain in Germany. I think largely because I keep on becoming more and more intersted in Duwag products.

M. Parsons:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/091...andiegohistoric

Book on the San Diego Trolley

Yeah, apparently a friend already has that book. Although, at that price I might have to go and pick it up! Thanks!

Anyways...

About this 2nd messenger wire on the SLRT, and sometime similar/ exactly the same being installed on the NE line... The plans have been out for a long time I'm sure for the SLRT wire. I would *assume* this is because ETS was aware that they would need extra power for the SD-160's.

If so, why did transit spring the need to upgrade the NE line on council in 2008 as the SD's were being delivered?

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Maybe because they were futureproofing the south end, and didn't know about the NE line until they actually tried running them?

It could be. I don't believe Vancouver realized they had to upgrade their ETB substations until they actually had the new trolleys out running in force? Can anyone confirm or deny that?

Calgary's also only had experience running 3 cars, as have most/ all other Siemen's AC users in North America. Very few cities use 4 cars trains. I believe I have seen some 4 car pics in San Diego (although, I don't believe they were AC cars).

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Went and paid a visit to the SLRT from HSS to 76 Ave.

ETS crews were out removing snow from the track around University Ave.

New signals at HSS have been turned around so that they are facing south, instead of north. I believe I noted most/ all crossing signals and arms installed except for one pedestrian crossing. I like the crossing signals over top of the road at University Ave/ 114 St EB.

Call on signals at the pedestrian crossing south of HSS were engergized and displaying yellow.

Messenger wire is strung up to the location for the balance weight assemblies at the switches south of HSS.

Bel/ Mac station has electronic signs to indicate train direction, instead of light up boards like all other stations up to HSS. LRT route maps are also installed showing South Campus as the end of line.

Track being removed from Cromdale yard

Not nessessarily related to SLRT, but, I noticed a rather new looking U of A sign at Univeristy Ave/ 114 St which included calling the existing University area "North Campus".

So... the signal system... as some probably know from previous posts... I wasn't exactly sure what was going on with all of the signals. I'll have a diagram showing signal locations added to this post a little bit later on tonight.

- signals at HSS are 3 light signals, with a smaller light located below the 3 main lights.

- signals at HSS crossovers appear to be to indicate switch position and are numbers "SWXXX"

- call on signals at pedestrian crossing north and south of crossing, I would assume northbound signals cover pedestrian crossing and 83 Ave, and southbound signals cover pedestrian crossing and University Ave.

- at same location as above, dwarf signals (ground level) postioned behind call on signal. I believe there is one at each signal facing the same direction as that signal (so, 4 total)

- two light signal between University Ave and Bel/ Mac. Supected to be call on signal for Univeristy Ave. Unknown if there is a dwarf signal with it, like the call ons north of 76 Ave.

- Bel/ Mac north, same singal set up as HSS (3 light, smaller light below)

- Bel/ Mac south two light signal. I'm going to assume this is a block signal which would also protect 76 Ave.

I have a theory on the signals at HSS south and HSS north.

Top two lights are the usual red and green block signals.

Bottom light is for the crossover.

It was that small light below that I had no idea what it could be. It occured to me that I have read at some point, somewhere trains might have to stop like regular traffic at University Ave. Perhaps this smaller signal is used to control this? This would allow the train to sit at HSS or Bel/Mac instead of just randomly being stopped outside of a station, and possibly obstructing the pedestrian crossing between University Ave and HSS.

This signal would probably be timed so that a train would get underway and proceed at track speed and reach the intersection in time to make it thru, co-ordinated with 114 St traffic.

It's possible the dwarf signals at the pedestrian crossing could be tied into this, but, I don't see why they would needed for northbound trains.

Photos are:

- messenger wire on northbound track near University Ave

- signage at Bel/Mac

- Bel/Mac northbound/ north track signal. Same signal for northbound/ south track

- crossing signals at University Ave

- call on signals displaying yellow at pedestrian crossing for northbound trains

- call on signal displaying yellow for southbound trains/ north track, with dwarf signal below, and behind call on signal

- 1026 at HSS with signals flipped around. I assume at least these signals aren't supposed to face southbound, and in a prior post I have the signal on the northbound track facing north.

Edit: Attached diagram.

DSC01723_January162009.JPG

DSC01738_January162009.JPG

DSC01769_January162009.JPG

DSC01787_January162009.JPG

DSC01830_January162009.JPG

DSC01845_January162009.JPG

LRT_Signals_HSS_to_76_Ave.GIF

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Bel/ Mac station has electronic signs to indicate train direction, instead of light up boards like all other stations up to HSS. LRT route maps are also installed showing South Campus as the end of line.

Not nessessarily related to SLRT, but, I noticed a rather new looking U of A sign at Univeristy Ave/ 114 St which included calling the existing University area "North Campus".

It's about time - finally took a cue from Calgary!

That sign has been there for a few months at least. Not sure when they first went in, but there is another one at 116 Street and Saskatchewan Drive.

Very nice photos! <_<

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I have a theory on the signals at HSS south and HSS north.

Top two lights are the usual red and green block signals.

Bottom light is for the crossover.

It was that small light below that I had no idea what it could be. It occured to me that I have read at some point, somewhere trains might have to stop like regular traffic at University Ave. Perhaps this smaller signal is used to control this? This would allow the train to sit at HSS or Bel/Mac instead of just randomly being stopped outside of a station, and possibly obstructing the pedestrian crossing between University Ave and HSS.

This signal would probably be timed so that a train would get underway and proceed at track speed and reach the intersection in time to make it thru, co-ordinated with 114 St traffic.

It's possible the dwarf signals at the pedestrian crossing could be tied into this, but, I don't see why they would needed for northbound trains.

The bottom light could be a repeater signal similar to what is NB before Belvedere coming out of the tunnel. What it might be repeating...who knows, not likely a block signal.

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Well, went and wandered around the SLRT extention today. Finally have figured out the signal system. My general idea has probably been right, but seeing a few more crossing, switches and associated signals has more or less confirmed it.

- 3 light signals at HSS south and Bel/Mc north are block signals, and very likely a signal tied into University Ave and it's traffic lights

- 2 head signals are either block signals, or call on signals

- small lights on blocks signals are tied into upcoming switches to indicate their position

- dwarf signals are probably for protecting pedestrian crossings that have crossing protection from lights/ arms

So.... Call on signals in diagram above are likely only to protect University Ave and 83 Ave, while the dwarf signals behind them protect the pedestrian crossing.

From walking the line today...

Signal names are being/ have been installed. Every signal I checked excpect for the reversed HSS south signals had names installed. Centre track at South Campus uses "BPXXX" instead of "BNXXX" or "BSXXX" like regular block signals. I think I've heard the centre track refered to as the pocket track? I would assume that's what the P stands for. There was nothing on Friday!

Crews were south of South Campus using the rented line truck that was at the 95 St incident, the ETS LRT line truck (what T6H-5307N shot), and EPCOR B3600. I would assume EPCOR won the tender for erecting the overhead, considering that line truck was that the 95 St incident with the other EPCOR trucks. I can't help but wonder, instead of leasing that line truck, why not just add rail wheels to the newish trolleybus line truck? They certainly don't seem to be using it much these days.

Contract wire is installed up to the future balance weight assemblies south of HSS. From there to South Campus it's a mix of being supported with s-hook things, dropper wires connected to the messenger wire but just wrapped around contact wire, and complete looking installations.

Still lots of work to be done around balance weight assemblies and any other termination points for contact and messenger wire along the whole extension.

I didn't note any bonds between the 2nd messenger wire and either the messenger wire or contact wire, although, I believe I did note bonds between messenger wire and contact wire south of South Campus.

Didn't see any section isolators ("breakers") so presumably those will be installed later on.

PNR crews had part of the northbound track at 76 Ave ripped up, and , their vehicles did cause for some fun manouvering for vehicle in the vacinity of 76 Ave/ 114 St. This may or may not have contributed to the route 7 taking out a parked cars mirror.

South Campus has fully enclosed shelters on the platform. Bel/Mc might have fully enclosed shelters as well. At least 2 surface stations should be tolerable to wait at now.

Siemens hangers are in use. Also, noted it looked like magnets (yellow boxes between rails that I believe shut trains down if they violate whatever that magnet controls... often block signals... unless a bypass it taken...) have been installed in some locations.

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