Spadina Subway Extension

[Ed T.]

Given the discussion in the York Region thread about the changes anticipated in Vaughan with the opening of the Sheppard Subway, let's discuss what you think the map will look like on the TTC side.

I propose the following:

35A/B/C – rerouted to end at Pioneer Village Station

41 – rerouted to end at Pioneer Village Station

60 – I would split it into a Finch Stn - Pioneer Village Station branch and Pioneer Village Station – Highway 27 branch with the hope that this will improve reliability on both sides of the route

84A/D – extended east to Pioneer Village Station

108 – potentially extended to Pioneer Village Station

165 – all service terminated at Steeles or potentially extended east to Pioneer Village Station

Why the love for Pioneer Village station? I assume that all of those routes will also go to York U station, otherwise you have the strange result of forcing a one-station transfer on all the passengers who currently simply get off at York U. If you have to have them go to one of the stations, York U is the obvious one. How many riders really want to go to Pioneer Village?

[IRT_BMT_IND]

Why the love for Pioneer Village station? I assume that all of those routes will also go to York U station, otherwise you have the strange result of forcing a one-station transfer on all the passengers who currently simply get off at York U.

York wants most of the buses off its campus when the subway opens.

[nfitz]

Why the love for Pioneer Village station? I assume that all of those routes will also go to York U station, otherwise you have the strange result of forcing a one-station transfer on all the passengers who currently simply get off at York U. If you have to have them go to one of the stations, York U is the obvious one. How many riders really want to go to Pioneer Village?

Why the love? Because that's where the bus terminal is. I don't think they've made allowances for a single bus to go to York University station. Edited February 4, 2014 by nfitz

[IRT_BMT_IND]

Why the love? Because that's where the bus terminal is. I don't think they've made allowances for a single bus to go to York U.

AFAIK the only buses left on the York campus when the subway opens will be the 106 and maybe the 107 and 41.

[Gil]

AFAIK the only buses left on the York campus when the subway opens will be the 106 and maybe the 107 and 41.

YRT still has the 3 THORNHILL, 20 JANE, 22 KING CITY and the new 101 to Richmond Hill Centre serving both York University and Pioneer Village. Using the current looping pattern through campus, the 3 and 20 loop clockwise, while the 22 and (although it's not inidcated, I'll assume) 101 loop counter-clockwise. You'll also still have a few TTC routes like the 106 YORK UNIVERSITY and probably the 41 KEELE running as well. I doubt ALL GO Transit routes will get booted as well. Most will probably get cut back to either 407 or Pioneer Village, but I can see select routes or trips continuing. Unless the TTC adopts a co-fare system with PRESTO you'll get a lot of angry students being forced to pay another full fare just to get to campus!

[nfitz]

AFAIK the only buses left on the York campus when the subway opens will be the 106 and maybe the 107 and 41.

I was thinking about York University station, rather than the entire campus. Presumably there'd still be service on Pond Road, and perhaps part, or even all, of Ian MacDonald Blvd. But that there would be no contingency for any platforms at the station itself, with the platforms all at Pioneer Village station near Ian MacDonald and Northwest Gate.

I don't know what they are planning, but if it was me, I'd simply run 106 (or something like it) up Sentinel Road, clockwise up Pond Road and Ian MacDonald, and up Northwest Gate into the TTC platforms station. I'd eliminate 107, and replace it by a YRT service (which presumably would start at the YRT platforms at Pioneer Village, run on Steeles to Keele, and north on Keele. perhaps the 107 service between Finch and Sheppard would be combined with the 106.

And 41, I'd simply run up Keele, and terminate at Finch West station (or perhaps all the way along Keele to Steeles, and into Pioneer Village station, or if necessary along Chimneystack and Ian Macdonald to Pioneer Village - but is there the demand?). Presumably there's be a local service somewhere, looping from that station, along Canartic, Petrolia, etc., and perhaps along Steeles to the TTC platforms at Pioneer Village.

Should there be service on Ian MacDonald between Chimneystack and Pond Road? Not sure ... what does York U envision? If there was, I guess there'd be a surface stop near the station.

[torontottc7]

York U would want absolutely no bus traffic in the campus loop with the exception for their shuttles.

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[shambala]

York U would want absolutely no bus traffic in the campus loop with the exception for their shuttles.

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Good on them, as well they should. With a new subway stop on their doorstep, absolutely no need for any superfluous buses inside the property anymore!.

[Gil]

Good on them, as well they should. With a new subway stop on their doorstep, absolutely no need for any superfluous buses inside the property anymore!.

You'll probably still have an outcry of students who are forced to make a transfer to the subway for a single stop for the "last mile" of their trip! YRT still plans on running a few routes into York, but the vast majority of them will get rerouted to the Pioneer Village station where they can make the transfer if they don't want to pay the TTC fare for a one stop ride.

[Mike]

You'll probably still have an outcry of students who are forced to make a transfer to the subway for a single stop for the "last mile" of their trip! YRT still plans on running a few routes into York, but the vast majority of them will get rerouted to the Pioneer Village station where they can make the transfer if they don't want to pay the TTC fare for a one stop ride.

Either that or York will decide to run those buses of theirs on a fixed schedule from Pioneer village YRT bus station into campus and ban all buses from campus (similar to how they run now from the GO Station)

[smallspy]

It looks like at this point the 106 will be the only TTC bus running onto the University's property. YRT will have a couple of routes, but nothing substantial.

As for "the last mile" on the subway, there are discussions still on-going for that.

Dan

[UrbanToronto]

I think the 41 should still serve the campus, even just on a one-way loop via The Pond or York Blvd, Ian MacDonald and Founders, laying over off campus; it wouldn't be spending much time on the property. I think the 60C/F should as well, but it's much more doubtful. It's entirely possible that the 41 could end up terminating at Finch West and a shorter route given responsibility of serving Petrolia etc.

I'm really curious as to what the TTC will figure out with its plans for route reorganization in that area. I'm hoping for improvements to the 84 Sheppard West once the 196 is eliminated; the crowding and long waits can be brutal between Downsview and Sheppard-Yonge.

[collegekid13]

New pictures of Parc Downsview Park Station (from the TTC:)

http://www.ttc.ca/Sp...roject_News.jsp

[crs1026]

You'll probably still have an outcry of students who are forced to make a transfer to the subway for a single stop for the "last mile" of their trip! YRT still plans on running a few routes into York, but the vast majority of them will get rerouted to the Pioneer Village station where they can make the transfer if they don't want to pay the TTC fare for a one stop ride.

If TTC could manage a presto reader at Pioneer Village, and one at York U Station......problem solved, assuming said students used presto on yrt, the transfer could be free or minimal charge. Might need some institutional adjustment at TTC, but it's doable.

- Paul

[smallspy]

If TTC could manage a presto reader at Pioneer Village, and one at York U Station......problem solved, assuming said students used presto on yrt, the transfer could be free or minimal charge. Might need some institutional adjustment at TTC, but it's doable.

- Paul

That's actually one of the options that they are looking at.

Dan

[nfitz]

That's actually one of the options that they are looking at.

The TTC's deal that they don't get funding from York Region to run the subway north of Steeles, was that they get the full TTC fare from those getting on the subway on the extension.

If YRT wants to find a way where those that get on the subway at Pioneer Village station and get off at York University station aren't paying an extra fare, they presumably will have to start funding TTC directly. T

hough is it going to worthwhile to take the subway one station for many students? It's only about a 1-km walk from Steeles to the end of the loop at York Blvd - 12 minute walk. If the subway is once every 6 minutes, and it's a 2-minute ride ... and it's still 300 metres (4-minute) back from the York University station to the end of the loop. It's probably a wash, unless your destination is the School of Business or something. I'd expect many to walk, even if the subway is free.

[smallspy]

The TTC's deal that they don't get funding from York Region to run the subway north of Steeles, was that they get the full TTC fare from those getting on the subway on the extension.

If YRT wants to find a way where those that get on the subway at Pioneer Village station and get off at York University station aren't paying an extra fare, they presumably will have to start funding TTC directly.

Oh, I'm well aware. But this has apparently been in discussion for well over a year despite that agreement, and I suspect that Metrolinx has more than just a little to do with it.

Dan

[nfitz]

Oh, I'm well aware. But this has apparently been in discussion for well over a year despite that agreement, and I suspect that Metrolinx has more than just a little to do with it.

They need to figure out fare integration GTHA-wide ...

[Guest]

They need to figure out fare integration GTHA-wide ...

Implement Presto card across the TTC system and get co-fare agreements signed between all GTHA systems. Then you're done.

[smallspy]

Implement Presto card across the TTC system and get co-fare agreements signed between all GTHA systems. Then you're done.

It's not even remotely close to being that easy.

For instance, what is going to happen with all of the lost revenue? Who's transfer system are we using, or are they going to be all kept independent of each other? Are the different properties going to keep running overlapping routes?

And those are only the questions I can think of with 6 seconds of thought.

Dan

[Guest]

It's not even remotely close to being that easy.

For instance, what is going to happen with all of the lost revenue? Who's transfer system are we using, or are they going to be all kept independent of each other? Are the different properties going to keep running overlapping routes?

And those are only the questions I can think of with 6 seconds of thought.

Dan

I wasn't trying to imply that it was easy. Revenue could be boosted by having transfers automatically calculated by tapping a Presto card; more people would transfer between services if it was easy. Route configurations and how revenues charged/distributed between systems would have to be hashed out in co-fare negotiations. The negotiations would be far from easy, but if they could be successfully done, fare integration would be as simple as a tap for the rider, much like it is now between GO and most GTHA systems.

[smallspy]

The negotiations would be far from easy, but if they could be successfully done, fare integration would be as simple as a tap for the rider, much like it is now between GO and most GTHA systems.

Fare integration to an end user like you or me is that simple, yes.

It takes several years of negotiation between the agencies before we ever see it however.

Dan

[nfitz]

Revenue could be boosted by having transfers automatically calculated by tapping a Presto card; more people would transfer between services if it was easy.

Calculating the revenue is easy. It's the policy. Currently when someone transfers from MiWay to TTC, TTC get's either $3 cash or a $2.70 token.

How will TTC get a minimum of $2.70 in the future? If they don't get $2.70, who is going to provide the missing revenue?

[Guest]

Calculating the revenue is easy. It's the policy. Currently when someone transfers from MiWay to TTC, TTC get's either $3 cash or a $2.70 token.

How will TTC get a minimum of $2.70 in the future? If they don't get $2.70, who is going to provide the missing revenue?

This is why I'm saying "revenue could be boosted", it's an economic argument.

If you don't adjust the $2.70-$3 fare the TTC would collect on the transfer, making it payable through Presto reduces the inconvenience (known as a "transaction cost" in economic terms) to the user, which would encourage more riders to consider taking transit across the Mississauga-Toronto border (instead of driving).

If you set up a co-fare agreement where there is a discount for taking both the TTC and MiWay together (which would be the rational thing to do), this is very basic economic forces: reduced cost = increased demand. This means more riders contributing fare and boosting total revenue, making up for the lost revenue on each trip (if the price points were set correctly).

If anyone needs elaboration/clarification on these arguments just ask.

[Ed T.]

This is why I'm saying "revenue could be boosted", it's an economic argument.

If you don't adjust the $2.70-$3 fare the TTC would collect on the transfer, making it payable through Presto reduces the inconvenience (known as a "transaction cost" in economic terms) to the user, which would encourage more riders to consider taking transit across the Mississauga-Toronto border (instead of driving).

If you set up a co-fare agreement where there is a discount for taking both the TTC and MiWay together (which would be the rational thing to do), this is very basic economic forces: reduced cost = increased demand. This means more riders contributing fare and boosting total revenue, making up for the lost revenue on each trip (if the price points were set correctly).

If anyone needs elaboration/clarification on these arguments just ask.

Since every fare requires a subsidy, increased demand = increased cost. Or is your claim that increased riding will reduce the farebox subsidy requirement? If so, the TTC went from a ridership in the 300 millions back in the late 90s to over 500 million now. Yet the need for subsidy persists. And I doubt that region-wide fare integration will add more than a few million rides to the TTC. MiWay is happy to have 50 million riders; YRT is around 22 million. Fare integration may be a big boost to ridership on the 905 transit agencies, but it won't do much more for TTC than overload already crowded routes.