General BRT discussion

[downbeat]

On 11/4/2022 at 4:22 PM, downbeat said:

And at one point in the afternoon peak, there are buses scheduled one minute apart going EB at SAIT.

It just occurs to me the gap between buses immediately before this … is 11 minutes. They could have spaced them out evenly at 6 minutes like the buses that come before but it seems this arrangement is likely more useful/appropriate to pick up all the people leaving the post-secondaries at that hour, or to accommodate whatever else along the route. Anyway, all that to say I'm glad to see what appears to be an attempt to respond to riders' needs.

[Transit Fan]

17 hours ago, downbeat said:

A recent positive change for MAX Orange seems to have occurred with little fanfare: the peak hour service frequency has dropped to as low as 5 or 6 minutes. And at one point in the afternoon peak, there are buses scheduled one minute apart going EB at SAIT. This is absolutely fantastic.

Very interesting that between the BRTs that launched in 2018 and 2019, MAX Orange has the least amount of special custom built BRT infrastructure yet is also the one currently offering the highest frequency at some points of the day. (And by that I mean no transitways or fancy stations.)  

* I do concede MAX Purple and Route 1 together do offer decent all-day service, all week long on 17 Ave SE.

I’ve seen some pretty full MAX Orange buses on holiday days and weekends … perhaps that can be next in the list of service increases? 

It's nice to see that there is enough demand on the MO to warrant the increased service levels.

I think the MO has the most long term potential out of all the current MAX routes. Once the Green line is built, it'll connect 3 of our LRT lines. It also connects to significantly more major destinations in the city compared to any other MAX route: 3 hospitals, University & SAIT, 2 malls, travels along multiple major corridors in the city (16th Ave, 36th St and 52nd St) and connects to a large section of NE Calgary which typically sees pretty high higher transit ridership.

It really is a shame a route like this doesn't have any dedicated lanes at all.

[downbeat]

Just found another unannounced improvement in schedules, this time on MAX Yellow where headways are down to about 10 minutes at times during peak hours. 

[PartiallySD]

Transit Priority signals have just gone up over the new queue jump at NB Shaganappi and Hidden Valley Dr over the weekend as part of the upgrades with the new bridge.
 

Can’t find anything on the upgrade being directly related to future NW BRT upgrades but it seems slightly overkill at the moment for just the 82 and it’s 30 minute frequency. 

[PartiallySD]

Here’s the new TPS, ironically enough on an 82 that’s not using it

[Mark Walton]

16 hours ago, PartiallySD said:

Transit Priority signals have just gone up over the new queue jump at NB Shaganappi and Hidden Valley Dr over the weekend as part of the upgrades with the new bridge.
 

Can’t find anything on the upgrade being directly related to future NW BRT upgrades but it seems slightly overkill at the moment for just the 82 and it’s 30 minute frequency. 

Is it a "candlestick" signal?

[PartiallySD]

1 hour ago, Mark Walton said:

Is it a "candlestick" signal?

I wouldn’t know because every bus I’ve taken past it has failed to use it…

looks identical to the ones on 17th so probably

[downbeat]

On 11/4/2022 at 4:22 PM, downbeat said:

A recent positive change for MAX Orange seems to have occurred with little fanfare: the peak hour service frequency has dropped to as low as 5 or 6 minutes.

I have just noticed more unadvertised changes on MAX Orange since the last time I used the route, which was maybe a month or so ago. The headway at peak times is now 8 minutes as its best.

Departing Saddletowne, buses leave every 8-15 minutes from 5:34 until 9:24 a.m. The 8-minute headway is from 6:29 to 7:41 a.m. Departing Brentwood, buses leave every 8-15 minutes from 1:52 until 4:54 p.m., with 8-minute headway is from 3:20 to 4:08 p.m. FWIW, buses reach Centre Street about 30 minutes after leaving either endpoint, to give you an idea of how the timings are for this major transfer location.

[PartiallySD]

On 12/8/2022 at 3:45 PM, PartiallySD said:

Here’s the new TPS, ironically enough on an 82 that’s not using it

Anyone have any insight on why this signal hasn’t been used yet? Heard from an op that they’ve been instructed not to use it and couldn’t possibly imagine why

[2102]

1 hour ago, PartiallySD said:

Anyone have any insight on why this signal hasn’t been used yet? Heard from an op that they’ve been instructed not to use it and couldn’t possibly imagine why

Probably doesn't work

[Vancouver]

On 2/23/2023 at 9:59 AM, PartiallySD said:

Anyone have any insight on why this signal hasn’t been used yet? Heard from an op that they’ve been instructed not to use it and couldn’t possibly imagine why

I saw an 82 use it on Wednesday afternoon, so it is definitely working. It really doesn't save much time though with the 4 through lanes of traffic at that intersection.

[1604]

Quote

Starting in summer 2023 and through 2024, The City will begin construction of remaining short-term North Central BRT projects along the BRT (Centre Street MAX) corridor on Centre Street N. and Harvest Hills Boulevard N. Project areas will be located between 28 Avenue N.W. to Country Hills Boulevard N.E.

Construction at the first project area, the Beddington Trail N.W. bus trap, is expected to begin in July 2023. Remaining projects are expected to begin construction in 2024, however additional project areas may be added in 2023, subject to contractor availability.

Detailed design on medium-term projects is expected to begin in 2024, upon completion of the short-term projects.

 

https://www.calgary.ca/planning/projects/transit-north-central-brt.html

There are some preliminary drawings of the reconfigured streets/intersections/MAX stations.

Looks to be a really nice upgrade for transit!

 

[downbeat]

Random observation: nice to see a fair number of people on Route 305 going eastbound in the afternoon. 

[downbeat]

Partial/part-time Transitway closure this weekend on 17th Ave. S.E. to replace and fix signal loops. (I hope this is a prelude to signal cycle improvements!)

https://www.calgarytransit.com/content/transit/en/home/news/17-ave-transitway-closure.html

[Gsgeek540]

3 hours ago, downbeat said:

I hope this is a prelude to signal cycle improvements!

This work started last month, with signal sequences and signal timings being adjusted/changed at all intersections along the transitway.

[downbeat]

Check out this Twitter thread about a BRT in L.A. … and it clearly demonstrates you CAN have protected crossings and universal bus priority for services like MAX Purple.

 

[Transit Fan]

To my disappointment, whatever "improvements" they made during that May long weekend closure on the MP transitway, I have yet to consistently see any noticable benefits since then.

At the 19, 26 and 28 St SE crossings, buses have a phase in the traffic light sequence where they are allowed to proceed. However, there doesn't appear to be any noticable increase in priority if a bus triggers the induction loop waiting at the intersection. If a bus just narrowly misses its timing to cross, it needs to wait one full cycle until the next opportunity. There's no cutting in line or any actual pre-emption of the traffic signal; it's always the same sequence each cycle and you always have to wait your turn. In other words, I just described how any other traffic light works! There's nothing bus specific about these ones besides the fact that one of the phases allows buses to cross.

For example, at the 19 St SE crossing, buses get their "green" during the last 20-30 seconds of the EB/WB traffic light phase. So right before the light is about to switch to being green for traffic on 19 St. Since most traffic at that intersection is going EB/WB, this is the longest phase in the sequence. I assume the logic in this scenario is that because east-west movements gets the most green time, there is a higher likelihood that a bus will show up at the crossing during that time. When it does, it'll get to proceed during the last couple of seconds before the light switches to NB/SB movements.

However, where this pre-determined sequence falls apart is when buses just end up narrowly missing this opportunity to cross or if they arrive at the intersection too early in the sequence. Now, not only do you have to wait for all NB/SB movements to complete on 19 St, you have to wait for all EB/WB left-turning traffic. Then after all that, even when straight through EB/WB traffic on Blackfoot Tr finally gets a green, you still have to wait until the end of that phase as well. Finally, when that long green phase for EB/WB traffic is about to end, buses finally get their light to proceed.

For the most part, this simple type of traffic light operation works fine along the remainder of the transitway because:

• Traffic along 17th Ave gets a longer green phase at most intersections anyway
• With the exception of being held up by left-turn lights, buses and car traffic travelling straight along 17th ave proceed at the same time

For the 19 and 26 St crossings, as a transit rider, I think the most aggravating part of the experience is when car traffic is zipping along smoothly on 17th Ave/Blackfoot Tr and you're stuck on the bus waiting at the same intersection despite travelling in the same direction as those cars. Why? Just to accomodate a bunch of right-turn movements across the transitway?

Surely in 2023, we have the technology and can program a traffic light to detect when a bus is approaching or already waiting and temporarily halt those right-turn movements and then resume them once the buses have passed. I'd love to see it but i'm not even suggesting full pre-emption either. If traffic on 19/26 St already has a green or if there is left-turning traffic, fine , let them continue. But as soon as straight through traffic is allowed to move on 17th Ave, buses have got to be able to get moving as well. Having some train-style crossing arms and lights would definitely be a good idea to think about though. I've found that drivers can be really bad at obeying the multitude of "no right on red arrow" and "no right turns allowed" digital signs along 17th Ave.

[downbeat]

4 hours ago, Transit Fan said:

Surely in 2023, we have the technology and can program a traffic light to detect when a bus is approaching or already waiting and temporarily halt those right-turn movements and then resume them once the buses have passed.

Yes: the Dutch have been using "smart" traffic lights for years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knbVWXzL4-4

4 hours ago, Transit Fan said:

I'd love to see it but i'm not even suggesting full pre-emption either.

As I mentioned above, I most certainly am. Yelling this as loud as I can, hoping someone at city hall/Calgary Transit will hear: GIVE BUSES FULL SIGNAL PRIORITY ON THE 17TH AVENUE TRANSITWAY. NOW. Everybody else can wait the 15 seconds (if that) it will take for a bus to cross the intersections.

I mean, we spent almost $100 million for it. Why the hell are we making buses wait? The longer these intentional delays continue, the more I question the wisdom of this project. At this rate, buses would be moving faster if we'd just given them curbside reserved lanes with queue jumps at all intersections. That that would have saved us a ton of money or we could have spent it on more BRT somewhere else.

[Nick B]

Let’s also not forget that a one way westbound trip on MP is currently scheduled at 34 minutes off peak and that a certain insider on this forum indicated that there’s enough slack in the schedule that even a full transitway closure has zero impact on the service…

Might as well demolish the damn thing at this point and revert 17 Ave to its old state difference 3 lanes of traffic each way. The transit customer probably wouldn’t notice a thing!
 

Bus Rapid Transit is seriously such a simple concept, there’s not many ways to get it wrong. Yet we’ve pretty much got them all checked off right here. Granted North Americans have never seemed to have the same amount of skill and expertise in designing transportation infrastructure as Europeans but Calgary in particular somehow manages to embarrass itself time and time again even among other cities on the continent. 

[downbeat]

3 hours ago, Nick B said:

Might as well demolish the damn thing at this point and revert 17 Ave to its old state difference 3 lanes of traffic each way. The transit customer probably wouldn’t notice a thing!

That was not my point, though. Rather: if we're going to spend $96 million of taxpayer money on an impressive piece of infrastructure that's supposed to make bus trips faster and more attractive than they used to be, then we should fully enable that capacity and capability. The transit customer SHOULD notice the difference.

3 hours ago, Nick B said:

Bus Rapid Transit is seriously such a simple concept, there’s not many ways to get it wrong.

IMHO, there's only one thing Calgary got wrong: we continue to be timid relative to inconveniencing auto traffic ever so slightly to help buses move much more efficiently in the transitway.

[Transit Fan]

7 hours ago, downbeat said:

As I mentioned above, I most certainly am. Yelling this as loud as I can, hoping someone at city hall/Calgary Transit will hear: GIVE BUSES FULL SIGNAL PRIORITY ON THE 17TH AVENUE TRANSITWAY. NOW. Everybody else can wait the 15 seconds (if that) it will take for a bus to cross the intersections.

I mean, we spent almost $100 million for it. Why the hell are we making buses wait? The longer these intentional delays continue, the more I question the wisdom of this project. At this rate, buses would be moving faster if we'd just given them curbside reserved lanes with queue jumps at all intersections. That that would have saved us a ton of money or we could have spent it on more BRT somewhere else.

I'd LOVE to see it too but sadly, I think the way the transitway was designed prevents train-like levels of full signal pre-emption. If someone is crossing 17th Ave where there isn't a station, you essentially have to cross the entire length of the roadway (7 lanes) in one shot. There is no island in the median for you to wait at like you would find at the LRT crossings on 36 St NE. If a light just turned green and an elderly person needs to cross all 7 lanes, the lights will typically need to provide enough time for someone walking slowly to make it across in one green phase. But, if they start crossing and a bus comes ripping down 17th Ave, realistically, the pedestrian can't be expected to just suddenly sprint across or turn around to give priority to the bus.

2 hours ago, downbeat said:

IMHO, there's only one thing Calgary got wrong: we continue to be timid relative to inconveniencing auto traffic ever so slightly to help buses move much more efficiently in the transitway.

Obviously, this is probably another huge factor as well. Good effective public transit should be disruptive. It's baffling to me that we end up giving priority to car traffic while a bus carrying more people overall is forced to give way.

What I would love to see in addition to what I described earlier for the 19, 26 and 28 St crossings is priority over the left turning traffic all along 17th Ave. If a bus is already waiting for NB/SB cross traffic, instead of immediately allowing left-turns off of 17th Ave, give buses a couple of seconds to clear the intersection first and then resume left-turn operations. If a bus is approaching while traffic is already turning left, greatly cut down on the green time of the turning phase so buses have little to no waiting time.

If someone were driving down 36 St NE in a car and they wanted to turn left and see a train approaching in either direction, the expectation is that their left turn may be slightly disrupted since a train is crossing. That same expectation should ideally be applied to the transitway as well. Instead, buses have to wait for a bunch of cars to turn left and also quite often, the cars travelling in the same direction going straight get to proceed ahead while the bus is waiting. If this is the priority level we wanted to have, then curb-side lanes and queue jumps would've definitely made more sense if we really valued the ability for car traffic to turn left that much.

We're soon approaching 4 years since the MAX routes started and since then, there's been minimal attempts (at least from the perspective of just a regular commuter and person living in the area) to make any meaningful improvements. I'm sure some operators have addressed some concerns about the wait times at traffic lights over the years as well. But at the end of the day, they're paid to drive the bus and follow a schedule. Whether or not the route is running efficiently or spending too much time at traffic lights is not something they should be expected to care much about. Obviously, I have seen various attempts to tweak the signal sequences somewhat including the recent May long weekend changes but again, nothing meaningful comes out of those adjustments. I would like to hope that behind the scenes that transit hasn't just accepted that this is the best that this service is able to run at and there's not much more they need to or can do.

Obviously those of us on this forum are a bit more vocal and cognizant of these kind of operational issues compared to the general public. As much as it's nice to discuss and share our opinions on this forum about these sort of things, this kind of discussion ultimately falls on deaf ears and isn't targetted anyone that has the ability to take any action. If any transit insiders here have any further insight or maybe suggestions on how we could maybe spark some discussions with the right people, that would be nice if you could share as well.

[CTrainDude]

There’s some great suggestions out there, and some that may not work for various reasons. All I can say is that there’s not many in Transit that would argue, so complaining to Transit likely won’t help much, because they don’t have decision-making over things like signals.  They’re just one voice.   And certainly don’t blame Transit.
 

Your best bet may be to contact your Councillor to start a broader conversation within the City. 

[vicinity]

Delete

[2102]

5 minutes ago, vicinity said:

The following are weekend frequencies for September 4

28/83 -30 minutes 

149 -midday 26 minutes 

This cannot possibly be the best use of resources

[R. Meu]

 

1 hour ago, 2102 said:

This cannot possibly be the best use of resources

Not necessarily related to the BRT Discussion, but ill put in my 2 cents here with that matter: 

 

I still scratch my head with the adjustment..... honestly, the 83 can have no service on weekends at this point (and even teetering that way during the week) while the 28 can keep running at 30 minutes and no one would bat an eye. Just looking at ridership figures from the past year and a half (which I obtained), the 83 is consistently the worst ridership route out of all routes in the entire network bar none (worse than all the shuttle routes for that matter too), while the majority of routes elsewhere have seen rebounds in ridership. Those resources can be better used elsewhere imo. 

 

The 149 change is nice for the weekend, but I still seriously think that the frequency adjustment could have been done in a way that off peak it should not be serving east of 85th Avenue (it's still dead on that section after these years, literally nobody takes it east of Deerfoot Meadows on Saturday).

 

Anyway....