New Flyer D60LF Retirement / Storage watch

[Xcelsior Bus Fan]

1 hour ago, northwesterner said:

Based on..... ?

Mileage. I have been doing a mileage check on every D60LF I ride lately and both of those have clocked over 1 million km. Last time i checked the mileage on 8023 it has clocked 36,704 km. Being a 1999 bus the odometer has most likely reset itself adding an invisible 1 in front of the 0, making it 1,036,704 km

[Michael Marriott]

1 hour ago, Xcelsior Bus Fan said:

Mileage. I have been doing a mileage check on every D60LF I ride lately and both of those have clocked over 1 million km. Last time i checked the mileage on 8023 it has clocked 36,704 km. Being a 1999 bus the odometer has most likely reset itself adding an invisible 1 in front of the 0, making it 1,036,704 km

So, you don't have an actual basis for your speculation.  Buses do not hit a magic mileage number and then get retired, there are lots of other factors in play, such as body condition, engine performance, reliability and so on, most of which are not obvious or on display to the general riding public.  

Also, I wouldn't expect many more D60LF's to get retired, given that all the 2016 XDE60's are in service, and we've already seen about 20 D60LF's parked at OTC.

[Xcelsior Bus Fan]

7 minutes ago, Michael Marriott said:

So, you don't have an actual basis for your speculation.  Buses do not hit a magic mileage number and then get retired, there are lots of other factors in play, such as body condition, engine performance, reliability and so on, most of which are not obvious or on display to the general riding public.  

Also, I wouldn't expect many more D60LF's to get retired, given that all the 2016 XDE60's are in service, and we've already seen about 20 D60LF's parked at OTC.

Currently 19 D60LF's have been retired. 21 XDE60's entered service and from what I heard those 21 are to replace 21 buses in the worst condition. Therefore, 2 more buses could get retired unless they are staying as part of fleet expansion. 

[Express691]

The counting process for replacements is quite tricky. This is how I see it.

We only had 98/100 D60LF before 8055 was sent away. Since 8054 was replaced in the 2007 order, we could say we had 99/100.

Including 8055 as a retired unit for the 2016 order, we have 99 units, 19 retired, 21 brought in, which is 101 total within that sector.

[Xcelsior Bus Fan]

30 minutes ago, Express691 said:

The counting process for replacements is quite tricky. This is how I see it.

 

We only had 98/100 D60LF before 8055 was sent away. Since 8054 was replaced in the 2007 order, we could say we had 99/100.

 

Including 8055 as a retired unit for the 2016 order, we have 99 units, 19 retired, 21 brought in, which is 101 total within that sector.

So from your point's view having 19 retired was the plan as the replacement for 8055 was included in the 2015 XDE60 order? Also seems like we are back to 100 artics in the fleet as 19 retired, 1 replaced 8055 which means 1 extra was gained

[Express691]

37 minutes ago, Xcelsior Bus Fan said:

So from your point's view having 19 retired was the plan as the replacement for 8055 was included in the 2015 XDE60 order? Also seems like we are back to 100 artics in the fleet as 19 retired, 1 replaced 8055 which means 1 extra was gained

The extra could be the replacement for 8049. Its all complicated to be honest.

[Xcelsior Bus Fan]

56 minutes ago, Express691 said:

The extra could be the replacement for 8049. Its all complicated to be honest.

Do you happen to know where 8056 is? Heard some say its retired while some say its at BTC overhaul

[northwesterner]

15 hours ago, Michael Marriott said:

So, you don't have an actual basis for your speculation.  Buses do not hit a magic mileage number and then get retired, there are lots of other factors in play, such as body condition, engine performance, reliability and so on, most of which are not obvious or on display to the general riding public.  

Also, I wouldn't expect many more D60LF's to get retired, given that all the 2016 XDE60's are in service, and we've already seen about 20 D60LF's parked at OTC.

I'd also like to point out a couple more issues...

Drivetrain overhauls do not all occur at a certain specific point in a vehicle's life. While TL has a regular overhaul program with triggers that are somewhat opaque to us, we certainly know that not every vehicle goes in at the same time. Additionally, there can be unexpected failures that can lead to a new engine/transmission since that last major refurb.

Additionally, while it would be wonderful if odometers actually displayed lifetime mileage, the readings should not be taken literally. I worked at a place where the vehicles were equipped with Argo Tachographs. They were modular units (for lack of a better term) and the odometers could be replaced independently of the rest of the unit. They could also be "set" to read the lifetime mileage of the vehicle. Thus, all our Argo Tachograph equipped coaches displayed their lifetime mileage, because shop procedure called for setting the odometer. 

The smaller, Dixson speedometers that are common in heavy vehicles these days, are essentially sealed units. If something breaks in the head unit, you replace the whole thing. You can't "set" the odometer, so a newly installed unit will read 000000.0. The example you gave above about 8023 reading 36,704km could mean that the vehicle has 1,036,704km lifetime (and has its original speedometer in the dash), or that it has done 36,704km since the speedometer was replaced (making the lifetime mileage a mystery to everyone without access to CMBC's maintenance computer - otherwise, all of us). 

P.S. 1,036,704km is 644,178miles (that's the way I think - sorry). Given the crazy utilization these D60LFs have seen over the course of their life, I would actually tend to believe that 644,178miles is low for a 17 year old coach. That's only about 38,000miles a year, which seems really low for a vehicle with its usage and utilization history.

[Express691]

41 minutes ago, Xcelsior Bus Fan said:

Do you happen to know where 8056 is? Heard some say its retired while some say its at BTC overhaul

I started that speculation and yet I still dont know where it is.

[Brando737]

Milage isn't the only thing to consider.  Our artic's are put through some very tough work compared to many other cities.  Full trips for the entire route on the 99, full trips on the 145/135 going up and down SFU.  Long routes with heavy loads on the 160 and 701.  Not to mention the weather takes a toll on the body.

[Xcelsior Bus Fan]

1 hour ago, Brando737 said:

Milage isn't the only thing to consider.  Our artic's are put through some very tough work compared to many other cities.  Full trips for the entire route on the 99, full trips on the 145/135 going up and down SFU.  Long routes with heavy loads on the 160 and 701.  Not to mention the weather takes a toll on the body.

Not every 160/701 is done using artics. I've seen days where both the 160/701 are mainly 40 foot buses or 100% 40 foot buses. Shouldn't the 620 also be on the list as that route has full/heavy/overcrowding loads almost every trip from the the ferry to Bridgeport as well as runs on the highway.

[Express691]

40 minutes ago, Xcelsior Bus Fan said:

Not every 160/701 is done using artics. I've seen days where both the 160/701 are mainly 40 foot buses or 100% 40 foot buses.

He mentioned nothing about what goes on the 160 or 701. He was saying that the characteristic of those routes is what causes an early retirement age.

 

Nonetheless, artics booked on a 160 or 701 all day, or even a 143, are likely to run N9s later. Similar idea goes with all other articulated nightbus routes. The fact that some of these buses are out for 22-24 hours a day only adds to these factors of shortened artic lifes.

 

Check this block on 8099 from May 8. http://tcomm.bustrainferry.com/mobile/block/1469825

[northwesterner]

14 minutes ago, Express691 said:

He mentioned nothing about what goes on the 160 or 701. He was saying that the characteristic of those routes is what causes an early retirement age.

 

Nonetheless, artics booked on a 160 or 701 all day, or even a 143, are likely to run N9s later. Similar idea goes with all other articulated nightbus routes. The fact that some of these buses are out for 22-24 hours a day only adds to these factors of shortened artic lifes.

 

Check this block on 8099 from May 8. http://tcomm.bustrainferry.com/mobile/block/1469825

This ^^^^. 

I usually to defer to Brando737 because he brings a lot of great posts to this board however I will object that the weather and climbing hills lead to earlier retirement of these artics. 

The weather in Vancouver is wet, but not snowy. So while there is some rust and corrosion, there is much much less than what comparable vehicles see throughout North America where salt is used for months at a time to keep the road clear. Also, climbing hills like up to SFU is well within the design specs of these vehicles, and again, happens elsewhere. Sometimes I hear these things tossed out in regards to Vancouver's fleet, and my response always is - what is your baseline? Every agency has unique geography and weather conditions ... unless your baseline is Phoenix (which also has light loads), then I don't think there is much special with these items. 

Where I am in agreement with both Brando737 and Express691 is the workdays these artics are put through. The 99 B-Line is the single busiest bus route in North America, and the old 98 wasn't a lightweight either. These buses see absolute crush loads day in and day out, and CMBC's scheduling department keeps them out on extremely long runs. That one you linked to where the vehicle is out for 19 hours is a great example. Another egregious use of the equipment came from sending the oldest coaches to Surrey to run on the 96, a route that doesn't have trippers. No wonder reliability was in the toilet. 

Because of the CMBC/TL planning philosophy which has most routes that run with artics 100% artics (with the idea being they can stretch the headway when all artics are assigned, and potentially eliminate a block or two), there are comparatively few trippers with this equipment. I don't agree with the planning philosophy to begin with, and the reliability, usage, and utilization problems with the equipment under that philosophy is one of reasons why.

And finally, I see around these parts many claims of "early retirement." How long do you want these buses to last? 18 years? 20 years? 22 years? Personally, I think the ones getting retired at 17 years are pretty impressive, and the am not surprised to see 16 year old coaches put out to pasture. These vehicles are used extremely hard just based on the routes they run, and the expectation that they last as long as a similar vehicle used in a lower usage and utilization environment is just ludicrous. 

[Xcelsior Bus Fan]

Went by OTC today and most of the artics there have a big X on the front window and have a M on the side window by the front doors. From what I heard that indicates that it has been marked for scrap. I find that quite surprising as the trend is usually to try and sell the buses first rather than scrap. Some of the artics at OTC have had its bike racks removed and spotted 3 with some of the seats removed. Not sure if the seats and bike racks were removed for reuse or some other reason

[GoCanGo]

16 hours ago, Xcelsior Bus Fan said:

Went by OTC today and most of the artics there have a big X on the front window and have a M on the side window by the front doors. From what I heard that indicates that it has been marked for scrap. I find that quite surprising as the trend is usually to try and sell the buses first rather than scrap. Some of the artics at OTC have had its bike racks removed and spotted 3 with some of the seats removed. Not sure if the seats and bike racks were removed for reuse or some other reason

I'm trying to recall the last time they were able to actually sell a bus that was listed. They weren't able to sell any of the D40LF's and managed to sell two D40 coaches in 2010. These buses are past their expiration date and have lots of wear in the body/frame.

[Dane]

They sold a lot of D40LFs, most notably to BC Transit where at least eight are still operational. They also sold far more than two D40s. I can off the top of my head think of six, and given I barely follow the specific movement of buses that makes me inclined to believe there were several more. 

[Xcelsior Bus Fan]

4 hours ago, GoCanGo said:

I'm trying to recall the last time they were able to actually sell a bus that was listed. They weren't able to sell any of the D40LF's and managed to sell two D40 coaches in 2010. These buses are past their expiration date and have lots of wear in the body/frame.

 

3 hours ago, Dane said:

They sold a lot of D40LFs, most notably to BC Transit where at least eight are still operational. They also sold far more than two D40s. I can off the top of my head think of six, and given I barely follow the specific movement of buses that makes me inclined to believe there were several more. 

Dane is right here where lots of the D40LF's and D40's have been sold to other operators. Right off the top of my head 11 of the D40LF's have been sold to BC transit where 10 of them are still operational and 1 has been marked for scrapped and being used as a parts bus. I was even able to ride 3 or 4 of the D40LF's that BC transit had purchased down in Victoria and the Fraser Valley. As for the D40's I don't quite remember but quite a number of them have also been sold and I remember 1 was sold to Cypress and being used as a shuttle bus. I wonder if artics on the other hand aren't listed up for sale due to more usage or is it just that no one is interested in buying second hand artics?

[M. Parsons]

23 hours ago, Xcelsior Bus Fan said:

Went by OTC today and most of the artics there have a big X on the front window and have a M on the side window by the front doors. From what I heard that indicates that it has been marked for scrap. I find that quite surprising as the trend is usually to try and sell the buses first rather than scrap. 

As shown by the surplus Ottawa artics, there isn't a large market for used artics, and at least in Western Canada the agencies that did pick up Ottawa artics (Winnipeg and Saskatoon) have had their share of problems with them.

Edmonton's artics of similar vintage have been money pits too. The data is quite dated, but, I recall operating costs of upwards of double compared to a similar aged D40LF. While Edmonton runs theirs day in/ day out on mainline routes, I suspect Vancouver's saw even more service than that. Edmonton's are more or less relegated M-F 0500-1900, although most runs are 14-15 hours with very few peak trippers in the mix.

[Xcelsior Bus Fan]

Any one here know the reason behind bike racks and seats being removed from some of the artics? I thought those were never taking off for reuse. Perhaps reusing bike racks and seats is now a new trend. Does someone know the answer for that

[ConventionalMan]

53 minutes ago, Xcelsior Bus Fan said:

Any one here know the reason behind bike racks and seats being removed from some of the artics? I thought those were never taking off for reuse. Perhaps reusing bike racks and seats is now a new trend. Does someone know the answer for that

I would assume that with bike racks, having a few extras on hand is never a bad thing... I'm sure more than a few are damaged on a regular basis. I may or may not have almost squished a few myself...  

Seats... dunno, maybe the same thing? Spare seat to easily replace slashed, burnt, stained, barfed on nasty ones? Sounds like a good idea to me!

[mira]

there have been reused seats on many fishbowls the flyer E901s D700s nothing new

[ConventionalMan]

6 minutes ago, mira said:

there have been reused seats on many fishbowls the flyer E901s D700s nothing new

Yup. Makes perfect sense. Simple, cheap, quick. Just like me. lol

[Express691]

Confirming 8056 at OTC.

Its hard to see but its top left side R prefix is closer to the ledge and below the orange light.

[Xcelsior Bus Fan]

2 minutes ago, Express691 said:

Confirming 8056 at OTC.

Its hard to see but its top left side R prefix is closer to the ledge and below the orange light.

Where did you spot 8056? I was at OTC twice last week and did close up looks and didn't spot it?

 

[Express691]

58 minutes ago, Xcelsior Bus Fan said:

Where did you spot 8056? I was at OTC twice last week and did close up looks and didn't spot it?

 

Good luck finding it beside 8009. You can only go down the side alley.