Victoria Regional Transit System

[captaintrolley]

2 hours ago, Blake M said:

Yes Edmonton tried switching to Saturday schedules and failed miserably due to the crowding

Edmonton is just a mish mash of service now.

[CV92]

7 hours ago, SomeIslandKid said:

Edit: How does this work with the D40LFs?

Driver can override standard door operation.

[InfiNorth]

On 3/19/2020 at 3:39 PM, SomeIslandKid said:

Edit: How does this work with the D40LFs?

Doesn't the driver still have a rear door control? Considering that not all D40LFs have the push-bars, I am wondering if driver control is universal.

[Transit geek]

6 hours ago, InfiNorth said:

Doesn't the driver still have a rear door control? Considering that not all D40LFs have the push-bars, I am wondering if driver control is universal.

In pretty much everywhere in Europe and Asia, the driver has full control of the rear door. There's even an audible alarm when the closing signal is activated, and I've regularly seen passengers call out for the driver to reopen the door, especially on double-deckers. Not in North America, though.

[Matt Dunlop]

Regarding the rear-door operation of the Flyers, there is a very small toggle switch covered by a red flap. I suppose the operators would eventually get used to where it is during a shift and naturally just flip it all the time to open the rear door. 

[InfiNorth]

On 3/20/2020 at 11:05 PM, Transit geek said:

I've regularly seen passengers call out for the driver to reopen the door, especially on double-deckers. Not in North America, though.

Then you've never been in Victoria, because the number of idiots unobservant people who think that you have to yell at the driver to get the back door open is quite staggering. 

[SomeIslandKid]

15 hours ago, InfiNorth said:

Then you've never been in Victoria, because the number of idiots who think that you have to yell at the driver to get the back door open is quite staggering. 

Calling people idiots for that is a bit harsh. The D40LFs are the only buses that explicitly need the passenger to do something to open doors. The only indication that the push bars open the door is an often peeled off and unreadable sticker. The Novas, double deckers, Vicinities and community shuttles all have what appear to be driver controlled doors. I got confused the first time I rode a bus in Vancouver because I was used to the back door just opening for me and not being a touch sensor (or IR?). And that's me a low tier transit nerd (Routing/service level stuff >>> Vehicles personally) who takes 3 buses one way in a daily commute. Most people don't care about transit except for the speed, frequency, and service span to their destination(?). Few people are watching how people get off the bus since it's not something anyone expects to be a challenge.  If a large number of people are confused in the same way it's a design flaw, not a user flaw.

Then you have the vast majority of trips made by Transit in Greater Victoria are done on a single route no transfer (See 2017 CRD Origin Destination Survey for stats), which reduces the chances someone would be exposed to a D40LF. Before COVID shut everything down I could easily go days without riding a D40LF on a 3 bus one way commute. And that's for semi regular riders. Transit ridership has rapidly grown (till COVID) with an almost 10% increase in boardings between September 2018 and 2019, lots of people are taking transit for what could be the first time in their life, or at least in months or years. Plus Victoria is both rapidly growing, and has a decently high transit mode share for North American cities, so anyone moving/visiting here from a small town or much of the US could have even barely seen buses in their hometown, let alone rode them.

Language barriers can also be a thing, like once I had an awkward time on a bus in Wuhan while trying to pay via WeChat when it turns out Aliplay was the only accepted phone based option. I didn't, and still don't, speak Mandarin so oh dang that was a time and a half. I lived there for 3 months and never actually figured out how to find bus schedules and just relied on dropping location pins on a Chinese map app I couldn't read, high frequency service, and a couple cases a bit of luck. It's an extreme case, but a bus systems in an unfamiliar city can be overwhelming. Also the crush loading there is like actual crush loading where you're squeezed against other people while here drivers stops boarding short of that. They also seemed to assign buses to specific routes, so the 801(?) always had a different model of bus with far superior grab poles that didn't hurt compared to most other routes. I gotta say I appreciate Canadian buses more for having comfortable to hold bars and straps. Anyway that was a tangent.  

We all have unique perspectives on life. There's other places in life that all of us would be called idiots for missing something that's obvious to the adept. A classic XKCD comic sorta touches on it, indirectly. Also this was way too long a reply for a minor thing, and maybe you meant it in jest, but this was fun to write so

 

Also thanks Matt, cool to know about the manual controls! I was under the impression they didn't exist since I've seen drivers get up to show someone how to open the back door before lol

[Dane]

Amazing even with service reductions by both schedule and employee unavailability due to Covid-19 restrictions at the moment... 9753, the ex TransLink D40LF that actually started it's life with GVRD BC Transit, runs on! 

[Matt Dunlop]

7 hours ago, Dane said:

Amazing even with service reductions by both schedule and employee unavailability due to Covid-19 restrictions at the moment... 9753, the ex TransLink D40LF that actually started it's life with GVRD BC Transit, runs on! 

Oh yes... that bus will remain like CMBC's 7115 - which lived on for a LONG time as well until being retired late last year. 

[SomeIslandKid]

You know I'm getting curious what's gonna happen with the summer service change. Will they still add the extra 47 and 48 trips? Then long term, will the September and January expansions happen? Those last two are definitely dependant on COVID so I'm guessing that's a big pile of IDK on BC Transit's part as with everything for everyone. I just hope Westshore routes aren't further delayed in hopefully getting a much needed service span extension since many start too late and end too early to hit a lot of low skill jobs. The last 53 leaving the Langford exchange is at 7:30pm weekdays which is insanely early especially since Walmart is open till 11pm. The 52 is the only that runs late enough to even have a chance at getting the closing shift home. Weekends are worse, not even the 52 operates with an adequate span for it. Also for stores that start shifts at 7am many local routes fail to reach central Langford early enough, which further erodes the social equity portion of the transit system and forces people to buy cars they may not be perfectly able to afford. Frequency for all the local routes is also important and lacking, but I still personally find the limitations of span a bit more concerning since bar overcrowding it is possible to plan around. It sucks and I know living it, but the lack of span just closes doors entirely without access to a car. IDK there's supposed to be 5500 expansion hours for Westshore local routes, we'll see what they do with them eventually hopefully.

Obviously dealing with COVID is more important. I just have time to think being stuck at home everyday

[Matt Dunlop]

17 hours ago, SomeIslandKid said:

You know I'm getting curious what's gonna happen with the summer service change. Will they still add the extra 47 and 48 trips? Then long term, will the September and January expansions happen? Those last two are definitely dependant on COVID so I'm guessing that's a big pile of IDK on BC Transit's part as with everything for everyone. I just hope Westshore routes aren't further delayed in hopefully getting a much needed service span extension since many start too late and end too early to hit a lot of low skill jobs. The last 53 leaving the Langford exchange is at 7:30pm weekdays which is insanely early especially since Walmart is open till 11pm. The 52 is the only that runs late enough to even have a chance at getting the closing shift home. Weekends are worse, not even the 52 operates with an adequate span for it. Also for stores that start shifts at 7am many local routes fail to reach central Langford early enough, which further erodes the social equity portion of the transit system and forces people to buy cars they may not be perfectly able to afford. Frequency for all the local routes is also important and lacking, but I still personally find the limitations of span a bit more concerning since bar overcrowding it is possible to plan around. It sucks and I know living it, but the lack of span just closes doors entirely without access to a car. IDK there's supposed to be 5500 expansion hours for Westshore local routes, we'll see what they do with them eventually hopefully.

Obviously dealing with COVID is more important. I just have time to think being stuck at home everyday

Well, in about a week there should be a new schedule change (Apr 6). However, with many many drivers and office staff calling in, expect the usual daily cancellations. 

Nobody really knows how long this COVID-19 thing will go on for, one could only hope the virus settles down and stops spreading by summer. 

As far as the Rt 47/48 trips, transit can barely even keep those running as it is, I often notice on NextRide that one trip on the 48 is a no-show or 47 in the afternoon doesn't show. I'm sure the demand is there but if a driver calls in, there isn't really enough people on the spareboard to justify keeping that route going. Maybe in the fall they may add more trips if demand justifies. 

Route 52 is the only "shuttle route" that runs fairly late. Route 53 has likely the lowest ridership (aside from East Sooke) so it doesn't run very late. Some trips actually run totally empty. Route 56/57 can be a little busy at times and those only go til 10:15. The local Langford routes start around 6am or so, which is early enough for most people to get to work for 7 or 7:30. I know off hand the 52 leaves Bear Mtn at 5:38, Colwood Ex at 6:15, 53 leaves Langford Ex at 6:20, 54 starts at 5:50, and the 56 starts at 5:43. 

Yes, transit doesn't exactly cater to the Westshore, unless you live on the main 50 route. 

[InfiNorth]

On 3/28/2020 at 6:21 PM, SomeIslandKid said:

Then long term, will the September and January expansions happen?

I'm really curious about this. Will BC Transit hold off until schools reopen? UVIC Exchange is a ghost town, which is great for social distancing but at some point UVIC- and Camosun-focused routes will need to be cut back. For one thing, UVIC is officially closed to all now, not just to undergrad students (grad students have been kicked out of their offices as well, all buildings closed). I should hope that we see a return to more normal life by January of 2021 but who knows... hopefully people make good decisions in terms of social responsibility.

[Dane]

Noticed today that a couple of the tighter space bus stops got closed downtown today. A good idea. 

[Matt Dunlop]

17 hours ago, InfiNorth said:

I'm really curious about this. Will BC Transit hold off until schools reopen? UVIC Exchange is a ghost town, which is great for social distancing but at some point UVIC- and Camosun-focused routes will need to be cut back. For one thing, UVIC is officially closed to all now, not just to undergrad students (grad students have been kicked out of their offices as well, all buildings closed). I should hope that we see a return to more normal life by January of 2021 but who knows... hopefully people make good decisions in terms of social responsibility.

As long as people stay home (unless absolutely necessary) this virus should go away. I work for an essential service but even then they are giving less hours and encouraging employees to stay home. 

[Matt Dunlop]

Some more new CNG Flyers must have entered service recently. 1170 is out on the Rt 46 to Westhills Exchange. 

[SomeIslandKid]

On 3/29/2020 at 9:07 PM, InfiNorth said:

I'm really curious about this. Will BC Transit hold off until schools reopen? UVIC Exchange is a ghost town, which is great for social distancing but at some point UVIC- and Camosun-focused routes will need to be cut back. For one thing, UVIC is officially closed to all now, not just to undergrad students (grad students have been kicked out of their offices as well, all buildings closed). I should hope that we see a return to more normal life by January of 2021 but who knows... hopefully people make good decisions in terms of social responsibility.

For the expansions targeted to address crowding and pass ups on UVIC focused routes it's likely. For the 1500 hour expansion to peak hour 50 trips, it depends since some of the peak ridership is UVic and especially Camosun Landsdowne students. However for the 5500 hours of Westshore local routes it appears likely to proceed as planned in January since the extra 47 and 48 trips appeared on the new schedule despite service reductions elsewhere. Both have an extra evening trip leaving downtown after 5pm, and an extra morning trip. The span of service has increased for both the morning and evening periods. The 48 still has the issue of trips reaching the Colwood exchange a minute after a 51 though, ugh. Hope that changes before UVic resumes session since going to Uptown for a 16/26 is slower. The 51 is the greatest route I never catch since transfers to local routes are almost always timed abysmally.

Now my curiosity shifts to what the plan on reinstating service is if social distancing starts to be lifted right after a service change. Some routes are extremely gutted which makes sense now, but what if things improve in late August after the fall service change has been internally confirmed? Some hourly routes are now bi hourly or worse and waiting for the Holidays or January would be quite painful for anyone relying on them if things are mostly normal by September. Though I imagine that's what will happen, infrequent service until the next scheduled service change regardless of how much ridership returns.

[Matt Dunlop]

2 hours ago, SomeIslandKid said:

For the expansions targeted to address crowding and pass ups on UVIC focused routes it's likely. For the 1500 hour expansion to peak hour 50 trips, it depends since some of the peak ridership is UVic and especially Camosun Landsdowne students. However for the 5500 hours of Westshore local routes it appears likely to proceed as planned in January since the extra 47 and 48 trips appeared on the new schedule despite service reductions elsewhere. Both have an extra evening trip leaving downtown after 5pm, and an extra morning trip. The span of service has increased for both the morning and evening periods. The 48 still has the issue of trips reaching the Colwood exchange a minute after a 51 though, ugh. Hope that changes before UVic resumes session since going to Uptown for a 16/26 is slower. The 51 is the greatest route I never catch since transfers to local routes are almost always timed abysmally.

Now my curiosity shifts to what the plan on reinstating service is if social distancing starts to be lifted right after a service change. Some routes are extremely gutted which makes sense now, but what if things improve in late August after the fall service change has been internally confirmed? Some hourly routes are now bi hourly or worse and waiting for the Holidays or January would be quite painful for anyone relying on them if things are mostly normal by September. Though I imagine that's what will happen, infrequent service until the next scheduled service change regardless of how much ridership returns.

The problem is, transit hasn't even been able to keep those two 47/48 trips going. I notice on NextRide that quite often one or the other is missing in the afternoon. Like today, the afternoon 48 leaving around 16:40 was a no-show. They need to actually make sure they have the operators before scheduling all this stuff. Sparebord is probably completely tied up now with so many drivers booking off due to COVID-19. 

[SomeIslandKid]

58 minutes ago, Matt Dunlop said:

The problem is, transit hasn't even been able to keep those two 47/48 trips going. I notice on NextRide that quite often one or the other is missing in the afternoon. Like today, the afternoon 48 leaving around 16:40 was a no-show. They need to actually make sure they have the operators before scheduling all this stuff. Sparebord is probably completely tied up now with so many drivers booking off due to COVID-19.

But isn't that the point of gutting some routes for the time being? It's unexpected that the expansion happened still, but in contrast the 6:40am 60 no longer exists shorting span of service on Triangle Mountain, and the combined 59/60 frequency is now every 2 hours in the morning after rush hour. I haven't checked many specifics, but I'm sure most routes have experienced additional cuts on top of the normal seasonal UVic and Camosun route cuts. Without COVID the addition of 2 buses running to the Westshore would be more than offset by the elimination of the 16, downtown only 14s, service every 10 or 15 minutes instead of every 5 on the 4, etc. The reduction this summer is far more significant than normal due to COVID so hopefully there will be enough drivers able to work

[Matt Dunlop]

16 hours ago, SomeIslandKid said:

But isn't that the point of gutting some routes for the time being? It's unexpected that the expansion happened still, but in contrast the 6:40am 60 no longer exists shorting span of service on Triangle Mountain, and the combined 59/60 frequency is now every 2 hours in the morning after rush hour. I haven't checked many specifics, but I'm sure most routes have experienced additional cuts on top of the normal seasonal UVic and Camosun route cuts. Without COVID the addition of 2 buses running to the Westshore would be more than offset by the elimination of the 16, downtown only 14s, service every 10 or 15 minutes instead of every 5 on the 4, etc. The reduction this summer is far more significant than normal due to COVID so hopefully there will be enough drivers able to work

Are you sure the 6:40am Rt60 wasn't there? I mean, I was at the exchange around 6:38am coming off a Route 57 heading to get groceries, and noticed a Vicinity 4064 parked in the 60's zone, so unless it ran early? I know the rest of that paddle is still going because it does 53's for the rest of the day before heading to East Sooke at 12:42pm. It's possible that they couldnt' find a driver until 7:00 or so when it does the 53s though. 

I wish transit would stop catering to the UVIC crown, i mean, why should people in the Westshore wait an hour or two for a bus (if it shows up) while they get buses every 5-10 minutes? 

[SomeIslandKid]

3 hours ago, Matt Dunlop said:

Are you sure the 6:40am Rt60 wasn't there?

I wish transit would stop catering to the UVIC crown, i mean, why should people in the Westshore wait an hour or two for a bus (if it shows up) while they get buses every 5-10 minutes? 

It won't be on Monday, as I'm talking about the service change. The first 60 will leave at 10:20am starting Monday. Also, I take it you've never been on a UVic route during busy times, less buses would mean more pass ups. They're often full despite the 5-10min service, when UVic and Camosun are in session. They always have worse service in the summer, and it's further reduced for COVID. The majority of Greater Victoria residents live between Saanich, The City of Victoria, and Esquilmalt, these routes are used by far more people than just UVic/Camosun staff and students. The 12 is the only route that is near exclusively useful to UVic trips, everything else hits many key destinations and just terminate at UVic.

Langford has about 40,000 people
Colwood has about 16,000 people
Metchosin about 5000 people
Therefore Westshore totals to roughly 60,000 people
Saanich has over 100,000 people
City of Victoria, over 80,000 people

It's natural for the Westshore to have less service especially with the low density car dependant design (Much of Langford is horrible for pedestrians. Colwood does a bit better). Westshore service expansions have not kept up to population growth, but that does not mean elsewhere is over-serviced. There's lots of expansions in core areas that should happen, as there is in the Westshore. That does not mean equal priority should be given to each expansion of course. Good news though: Westshore local routes are slated for a 5500 annual service hour expansion in January, pending COVID. See 2020/21 Annual Service Plan from the February 25 Transit Commission Meeting (PreCOVID). That's about 15 hours a day more service, which admittly isn't great, but it depends on how it's used. More concrete details should be given in the documents for either the June 16th, or August 11th Transit Commission meeting, depending what happens with them again because again COVID.

I say this as someone who lives in the Westshore and relies an hourly indirect poor span of service route. They're bad and need expansion, but they're not the only lacklustre part of Victoria's transit system. Before COVID closed UVic, I took 3 buses one way, everyday. I've seen that the entire system has problems. Westshore expansions would certainly help me more than other expansions and I have pushed politicians on them, but I understand everything is a trade off.

[Matt Dunlop]

Ironically the new schedules have not come out yet... but yes you're right. Just noticed, no Route 60s before 10:20am, which is quite ironic. 60 is usually busier because people want to get TO the exchange so going through Triangle Mountain first doesn't make sense (59 routing). 

I had no idea that Saanich had more people than Greater Victoria. I guess that explains why the Route 26 has pretty good service, and then the 15 has even better service despite them going to the same terminus (UVic to Dockyard). 

[InfiNorth]

16 hours ago, SomeIslandKid said:

The 12 is the only route that is near exclusively useful to UVic trips, everything else hits many key destinations and just terminate at UVic.

I would even argue that it has more usefulness than that, as it provides an extra layer of service between the residential areas of Gordon Head and University Heights, as well as going past the three main middle schools of the Gordon Head area. So even with the 12, it doesn't exclusively serve UVIC, although certainly the majority of its riders are UVIC students. On a different note, for the record of people digging through this thread in the future, April 3rd, 2020 marks the official complete suspension of Friday/Saturday late-night services by BC Transit due to COVID.

[Matt Dunlop]

Come to think about it, I just looked at the new schedule (no new rider's guide apparently due to COVID-19, although I don't see why they can't make a digital one?) and the Route 52 from Bear Mountain doesn't start up there until 6:38am, Almost 50 minutes later than it normally starts. I don't know how happy those people will be, because there are regulars on the 52. 

 

[InfiNorth]

7 hours ago, Matt Dunlop said:

Come to think about it, I just looked at the new schedule (no new rider's guide apparently due to COVID-19, although I don't see why they can't make a digital one?) and the Route 52 from Bear Mountain doesn't start up there until 6:38am, Almost 50 minutes later than it normally starts. I don't know how happy those people will be, because there are regulars on the 52.

In what world does it make sense to have the printed rider's guide out faster than the digital one?

[Matt Dunlop]

Arboc being used, not a good idea with COVID-19 happening. Passengers boarding and exiting the bus are too close to the operator.