DavidH Posted October 21, 2008 Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 Even while public meetings continue, internal progress on the RTP proposals is continuing. Some interesting points are in agenda documents for Friday's Metrolinx board meeting. Specifically, a review of Benefits Case Analysis progress on several major projects indicates the following: SRT Replacement/extension - conversion to grade-separated LRT is on the table. If so, extension past McCowan would be partially grade-separated. - If not converted to LRT, there are options being considered to get to Malvern via the Sheppard East LRT. with the SRT only going to Markham/Sheppard. - should get info at November board meeting and a decision in January Yonge North Subway - options for four or six stations being considered - recommendation to board in November Eglinton Crosstown - Transit City, TC plus extended tunneled section, or fully-grade separated LRT all on table - note that for conspiracy theorists, the term "LRT" is used for all options. - mentions bundling with SRT as a single line - presumably if SRT is converted to LRT as there is no discussion of building Eglinton using ALRT technology. -decision in January Sheppard / Finch - options for keeping separate routes, continuous corridor via Sheppard West, continuous corridor via Finch East and Don Mills, or extending the Sheppard subway to Downsview and Consumer's Road and using the LRTs in between. - decision in January Lakeshore GO electrification - options to electrify existing service for improved train performance, or to electrify and expand to significantly improve service levels and capacity - latter seems to be an early start for regional express -decision in January Analysis is being done by Steer Davies Gleave (SDG), a transportation consulting firm. Overall, it seems as if Metrolinx is bringing some good options onto the table that were not fully considered by Transit City and other plans. The timelines are fairly tight indicating that these should not be massive additional planning exercises on top of the EAs. Of course, they are - in some cases - overriding decisions already made at the TTC level. We'll have to see what the City of Toronto reaction is to these things. In most cases, they are looking at sensible things - connecting Finch West and Sheppard East, converting SRT to LRT technology, and considering whether Eglinton should serve as a true crosstown route without reverting to local operations on the end segments outside of the proposed tunnel. All of these could be useful changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion9131 Posted October 21, 2008 Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 Even while public meetings continue, internal progress on the RTP proposals is continuing. Some interesting points are in agenda documents for Friday's Metrolinx board meeting. Specifically, a review of Benefits Case Analysis progress on several major projects indicates the following: SRT Replacement/extension- conversion to grade-separated LRT is on the table. If so, extension past McCowan would be partially grade-separated. - If not converted to LRT, there are options being considered to get to Malvern via the Sheppard East LRT. with the SRT only going to Markham/Sheppard. - should get info at November board meeting and a decision in January I am shocked that Metrolinx is considering LRT conversion. I have a feeling the TTC won't argue, if someone else is picking up the tab for the conversion. I have ridden the latest ART technology(JFK skytrain), and it's great. But I doubt the TTC will ever go to full automation. I honestly think LRT would be the best answer for Scarborough. It's easier to build a network out there with LRT. Yonge North Subway- options for four or six stations being considered - recommendation to board in November VivaNow already handed in their report to Metrolinx? Eglinton Crosstown- Transit City, TC plus extended tunneled section, or fully-grade separated LRT all on table - note that for conspiracy theorists, the term "LRT" is used for all options. - mentions bundling with SRT as a single line - presumably if SRT is converted to LRT as there is no discussion of building Eglinton using ALRT technology. -decision in January This is going to cause the most debate. The city has been clear, that it sticking with LRT, regardless of what Metrolinx thinks. Maybe Metrolinx would be wise to not even decide on this issue? Sheppard / Finch- options for keeping separate routes, continuous corridor via Sheppard West, continuous corridor via Finch East and Don Mills, or extending the Sheppard subway to Downsview and Consumer's Road and using the LRTs in between. - decision in January What? Extend the subway to Downsview, and Consumers Rd, and use LRT on the surface? Or in the subway? Lakeshore GO electrification- options to electrify existing service for improved train performance, or to electrify and expand to significantly improve service levels and capacity - latter seems to be an early start for regional express -decision in January They need to move on this option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidH Posted October 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 What? Extend the subway to Downsview, and Consumers Rd, and use LRT on the surface? Or in the subway? It sounds as if that is what they are talking about, although the wordings in the summary document are confusing. We'll have to wait for the detailed report to hit the Metrolinx board agenda in a few months, I guess. This is going to cause the most debate. The city has been clear, that it sticking with LRT, regardless of what Metrolinx thinks. Maybe Metrolinx would be wise to not even decide on this issue? I'm not sure what your concern is here - Metrolinx's options are all LRT - at least they use that phrase exclusively. They are considering having a longer completely-private ROW (ie. tunnelled longer) as well as connecting it to a converted SRT to allow through trips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion9131 Posted October 21, 2008 Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 My apologies. I misread it. You're right. There is no concern. And if the SRT is converted to LRT, making it a seamless line should make the pro-ART crowd happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Articulated Posted October 21, 2008 Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 Not quoting the entire post, so... -Yonge subway extension: VIVAnow (as you've put it) has said they're putting in all 6 stations on the line. Why do they need to keep studying this? -SRT extension: Uh-oh, this override won't be pretty... the TTC's been fighting for the SRT extension and NOT an LRT conversion, if Metrolinx overrules them then there will be more bad blood between the two agencies (as if there isn't enough already). -Eglinton LRT: I'm glad that they removed the option of ALRT or SRT technology. Although combining the Eglinton Line with the SRT is a good idea, IMO it would be smarter to combine it with the Scarborough-Malvern LRT, which continues east on Eglinton. -Sheppard/Finch: Disappointed to see more subway extensions on the table. I can see Metrolinx is trying to rectify the situation about the gap between Sheppard East and Finch West LRTs, so kudos to them for thinking of the bigger picture, but IMO their solutions are still iffy. I can see problems with extending Finch LRT east along Finch, which will provide both bus and LRT service (39 will still have to go to Finch Stn to connect with Yonge subway, passengers won't like the extra transfer) and problems with people having to guess which arrives first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidH Posted October 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 I'm glad that they removed the option of ALRT or SRT technology. Although combining the Eglinton Line with the SRT is a good idea, IMO it would be smarter to combine it with the Scarborough-Malvern LRT, which continues east on Eglinton. Scarborough-Malvern is a lower priority project, though, and won't have the private ROW. I think Metrolinx is trying to have Eglinton be an LRT but also serve a longer-distance purpose than the other LRT lines. Disappointed to see more subway extensions on the table. I can see Metrolinx is trying to rectify the situation about the gap between Sheppard East and Finch West LRTs, so kudos to them for thinking of the bigger picture, but IMO their solutions are still iffy. I can see problems with extending Finch LRT east along Finch, which will provide both bus and LRT service (39 will still have to go to Finch Stn to connect with Yonge subway, passengers won't like the extra transfer) and problems with people having to guess which arrives first. Well, it's good to have options on the table for this, since the Finch/Sheppard split is the single biggest problem with Transit City. I suspect that they will end up running Finch over to Don Mills and down to Sheppard there, but that's just a guess. We'll see in a few months. As for the subway extensions - I'm happy that they are considering it. I'm not sure it makes sense, but subway options should not be placed off the table when doing these kinds of analyses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion9131 Posted October 21, 2008 Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 The Yonge North extension makes better sense than the Spadina extension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Articulated Posted October 21, 2008 Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 Scarborough-Malvern is a lower priority project, though, and won't have the private ROW. I think Metrolinx is trying to have Eglinton be an LRT but also serve a longer-distance purpose than the other LRT lines.Well, it's good to have options on the table for this, since the Finch/Sheppard split is the single biggest problem with Transit City. I suspect that they will end up running Finch over to Don Mills and down to Sheppard there, but that's just a guess. We'll see in a few months. As for the subway extensions - I'm happy that they are considering it. I'm not sure it makes sense, but subway options should not be placed off the table when doing these kinds of analyses. As far as I'm aware of, all the TC lines will be built with their own ROW in the centre of the street. The only problem with the subway extensions is that either the TTC will jump towards it as usual, the Province finds they can have a nice ribbon-cutting ceremony before an election (better with a subway than an LRT line) or else counselors complain that their ward isn't getting proper service without a subway. It's happened so many times in the past, and this is why TC was such a miracle, we've finally moved away from subways and into something more sustainable! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronaldmcgddonald Posted October 21, 2008 Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 If the province is willing to foot the bill for a subway on Eglinton, then I think the TTC should stop complaining and thank them for it. It's better to spend $10 billion on a subway now than to spend $2 billion to install inferior LRT technology, only to have it removed in 20 years and replaced by a subway because of overcrowding. Subways are just getting more expensive to build, the sooner we get them finished, the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion9131 Posted October 21, 2008 Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 If the province is willing to foot the bill for a subway on Eglinton, then I think the TTC should stop complaining and thank them for it. It's better to spend $10 billion on a subway now than to spend $2 billion to install inferior LRT technology, only to have it removed in 20 years and replaced by a subway because of overcrowding. Subways are just getting more expensive to build, the sooner we get them finished, the better. Whoa!! Expert alert here!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidH Posted October 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 As far as I'm aware of, all the TC lines will be built with their own ROW in the centre of the street. The central part of Eglinton will be in a tunnel, and as I wrote above, Metrolinx is considering extending the tunneled portion of the route - hence it would be in a private ROW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wil9402 Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 SRT Replacement/extension- conversion to grade-separated LRT is on the table. If so, extension past McCowan would be partially grade-separated. - If not converted to LRT, there are options being considered to get to Malvern via the Sheppard East LRT. with the SRT only going to Markham/Sheppard. - should get info at November board meeting and a decision in January Would the bolded be a branch off of the Sheppard East LRT. I know the preferred routing for the Scarborough-Malvern LRT in the northern end is to use Morningside-Sheppard-Nielson to Malvern so would a branch of Sheppard East go up Nielson while the other continues to Meadowvale? I think this would work as there wouldn't much point in running all the Sheppard East LRTs to Meadowvale as not a lot of service is needed east of Morningside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallspy Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 Lakeshore GO electrification- options to electrify existing service for improved train performance, or to electrify and expand to significantly improve service levels and capacity Huh? Wouldn't one indirectly lead to the other, as you now have trains that are able to make more trips in the same amount of time? Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronaldmcgddonald Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 Whoa!!Expert alert here!! I do not feel that snide remarks such as this constructively communicate a difference of opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMS Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 I really disagree with the proposed mode transfer at Don Mills Station. We already know the headache experienced by commuters at Kennedy Station: people leaving the subway for a inferior, smaller, unpredictable, not necessarily reliable, and never as frequent mode of transportation. Why abandon the luxury of a perfectly good subway for LRT. I'm sorry but Sheppard is NOT Eglinton. I feel that if LRT does come about, the whole subway project was done in vain. I don't think I'm the only one here that feels this way but I just don't see how the decision makers can't relate what they will do at Don Mills to what is currently happening at Kennedy (although this example is perhaps a little too extreme). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRT_BMT_IND Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 Huh? Wouldn't one indirectly lead to the other, as you now have trains that are able to make more trips in the same amount of time?Dan I'd assume electrification would mean a service increase, paying a hefty sum to electrify the line and then just running the same services makes no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallspy Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 I'd assume electrification would mean a service increase, paying a hefty sum to electrify the line and then just running the same services makes no sense. There's certainly that aspect of it as well, although one never knows considering the host railroad. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Articulated Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 I really disagree with the proposed mode transfer at Don Mills Station. We already know the headache experienced by commuters at Kennedy Station: people leaving the subway for a inferior, smaller, unpredictable, not necessarily reliable, and never as frequent mode of transportation. Why abandon the luxury of a perfectly good subway for LRT. I'm sorry but Sheppard is NOT Eglinton. I feel that if LRT does come about, the whole subway project was done in vain. I don't think I'm the only one here that feels this way but I just don't see how the decision makers can't relate what they will do at Don Mills to what is currently happening at Kennedy (although this example is perhaps a little too extreme). I definitely see at least one of the plans for Don Mills interchange being a LOT better than the Kennedy interchange; one of the options is to extend the platform at Don Mills east, and have the LRT board right in front of the subway cars. That's an extremely efficient transfer, if there's a waiting vehicle it'll take 30 seconds max (40 if you're really slow). Kennedy you walk up 3 flights of stairs (or two if you get to ride one of the 2 two-story escalators), and even the elevators need two rides to get to SRT level. It'll be better once the rebuilt SRT opens: the SRT tracks will be the same level as the bus terminal, with a corridor from the mezzanine (still two flights of stairs, two elevators, and a longer walk, but that one stair gets removed). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Engineer Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 I really disagree with the proposed mode transfer at Don Mills Station. We already know the headache experienced by commuters at Kennedy Station: people leaving the subway for a inferior, smaller, unpredictable, not necessarily reliable, and never as frequent mode of transportation. Why abandon the luxury of a perfectly good subway for LRT. I'm sorry but Sheppard is NOT Eglinton. I feel that if LRT does come about, the whole subway project was done in vain. I don't think I'm the only one here that feels this way but I just don't see how the decision makers can't relate what they will do at Don Mills to what is currently happening at Kennedy (although this example is perhaps a little too extreme). I agree with you on this one. I think lack of interest with the Sheppard subway comes from the fact that it goes nowhere. If it was completed to its intended length, not only would it eliminate the transfer, but it would provide a faster ride with more capacity that is likely to fill in once people see that the service is there. And even now, one of TTC's proposals is to extend Sheppard line to Consumers road in order to better facilitate the transfer stop. Why not just bring the subway up to what people though it would be?? There's nothing wrong with subways as long as they're needed, and when the original subway opened in 2002, there was sufficient demand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion9131 Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 I really disagree with the proposed mode transfer at Don Mills Station. We already know the headache experienced by commuters at Kennedy Station: people leaving the subway for a inferior, smaller, unpredictable, not necessarily reliable, and never as frequent mode of transportation. Why abandon the luxury of a perfectly good subway for LRT. I'm sorry but Sheppard is NOT Eglinton. I feel that if LRT does come about, the whole subway project was done in vain. I don't think I'm the only one here that feels this way but I just don't see how the decision makers can't relate what they will do at Don Mills to what is currently happening at Kennedy (although this example is perhaps a little too extreme). Riders are already transferring to an inferior mode at Don Mills. The LRT will be an upgrade, and an improvement. The Sheppard Subway WAS done in vain due to inept mayor with powerful friends at the time. The Sheppard Line should not have been built. That being said, I would honestly prefer the subway to be completed to STC, with LRT continuing on Sheppard, from the point where the subway would diverge to STC. I would. But realistically speaking, it's never going to happen. As it stands, you can still design the LRT that you can have transfers on the same platform as the subway. I do not think you can compare Don Mills to Kennedy. Kennedy is cramped, poorly designed, and doesn't have good passenger flow. At least Don Mills is designed better, and the new mode will be considerably better than 1st gen ART tech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronaldmcgddonald Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 The central part of Eglinton will be in a tunnel, and as I wrote above, Metrolinx is considering extending the tunneled portion of the route - hence it would be in a private ROW. So if they're considering extending the tunneled portion, perhaps it would be a good idea to just build an RT line? It's pretty much a waste to spend billions on a tunnel, and then run articulated streetcars through it. If anything, the tunnel should be built with conversion to RT in the future in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Rocket 191 Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 So if they're considering extending the tunneled portion, perhaps it would be a good idea to just build an RT line? It's pretty much a waste to spend billions on a tunnel, and then run articulated streetcars through it. If anything, the tunnel should be built with conversion to RT in the future in mind. Don't forget, the report says that one option could be no tunnel at all (an idea which I don't think will be feasible but is worth studying since it has worked in other cities around the world). In a world with limited resources, we have to balance all the factors that will influence the cost, speed and attractiveness of the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronaldmcgddonald Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 I guess what I've really been wondering the most about all of this is, how much better is LRT over bus service? I've got to check out Spadina to see for myself. I'm curious to see how much better it is from a passenger perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidH Posted October 27, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 Has anyone been to a public meeting yet? I'm planning/hoping on attending tomorrow night in Whitby and wondering if they will have print copies of the draft RTP available. Also, any CPTDB people planning on being there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38 Creditview Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 I guess what I've really been wondering the most about all of this is, how much better is LRT over bus service? I've got to check out Spadina to see for myself. I'm curious to see how much better it is from a passenger perspective. Spadina is SLOW SLOW SLOW. Don't waste your time riding it unless you have like a whole day to waste. Building Scarborough LRT from Don Mills or even from Consumers Road to STC is a big waste of $$$. Would be the biggest mistake the TTC has made since building the SRT. Of course the LRT fanatics on this board would disagree and would rather force a transfer. IMO, Sheppard MUST be extended to STC, as MUST Danforth. Once that is done, I don't think Scarborough will ever need another subway line; LRT would suffice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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