El Dorado National

[MVTArider]

From the press release it mainly sounds like ENC was doing alright but now it's just not worth it for REV to continue running that division due to ongoing supply chain issues and competing against the big guys for limited stock on crucial parts. As others have mentioned they've just never really gotten to the point where they can compete for several large orders at a competitive price either. And their build quality has always been slightly below that of Gillig and NFI as well. (Though IMO the gap was closing on that in the last 5-10 years or so with the Axess)

What will be interesting to watch is how things shake out in the coming years as the remaining fleets of NABI, Novas, Eldos, Orions, etc. continue to come up for replacement along with all the Gilligs and NFIs. I'd say the market is certainly getting more optimal for an outside manufacturer to come in and compete. However it could also be that Gillig and NFI are able to dominate and adapt to the increased demand. Gillig could opt to open another factory in a different state, or expand their current facility a bit. Same for NFI.

The small non-government owned fleets will be the ones to really watch once ENC isn't active. Those aren't bound by Buy America so BYD, Nova, Van Hool, etc. could be suitable options in some cases.

15 minutes ago, FlyerD901 said:

I wonder , will Volvo bring them back in some way shape or form. Or will it just be battery part of the business for their own needs.

 

They don't own the rights to produce the vehicles, that part was sold off to Phoenix Motorcars for $10 million. Now PM could potentially continue to produce them and partner with Volvo (or someone) for EV propulsion. But that remains to be seen. For all I know they may have just blown $10 million on them to pump up their portfolio to woo investors.

[Mike]

4 hours ago, FlyerD901 said:

I wonder , will Volvo bring them back in some way shape or form. Or will it just be battery part of the business for their own needs.

The only thing Volvo can bring back is the battery powertrain components in either Nova or Volvo buses since that is all they bought.  Proterra’s heavy duty bus manufacturing facility was bought by Phoenix Motorcars (which previously manufactured medium duty buses).

[RoseCityBusMan]

18 hours ago, MVTArider said:

Gillig could opt to open another factory in a different state, or expand their current facility a bit.

I would like them to take over the Nova Bus plant in the US since they could start making Articulated buses which is something that Gillig hasn't done yet and could mean competition for New Flyer since they have a monopoly over the 60ft buses (except for electric since they have BYD). New Flyer should make XD30s like how Gillig does their 30ft buses. But I think we need more competition. It's to a point where septic buses are only being offered by one manufacturer. Gillig only makes 30ft Diesel, Hybrid and CNG buses, New Flyer only makes 60ft Diesel, Hybrid, CNG, and Hydrogen Fuel Cell buses. The only competition is 30ft electric buses (Gillig vs BYD). 40ft and 35ft Diesel, Hybrid, and CNG, (New Flyer Vs Gillig). 40ft Electric (BYD Vs New Flyer Vs Gillig). 60ft Electric buses (BYD Vs New Flyer).

 

I wish that Orion, NABI, and Flxible didn't go under.

[FlyerD901]

NFI had the Aroboc 30fts. Clean Diesel, electric and Hybrid I believe. So no real need for the XD30. Too bad the MidI didn't last long under NFI. Plus there's plenty of cutaways available still. 

I think next year will see what happens. 

 

[New Yorker 2001]

18 hours ago, RoseCityBusMan said:

I would like them to take over the Nova Bus plant in the US since they could start making Articulated buses which is something that Gillig hasn't done yet and could mean competition for New Flyer since they have a monopoly over the 60ft buses (except for electric since they have BYD). New Flyer should make XD30s like how Gillig does their 30ft buses. But I think we need more competition. It's to a point where septic buses are only being offered by one manufacturer. Gillig only makes 30ft Diesel, Hybrid and CNG buses, New Flyer only makes 60ft Diesel, Hybrid, CNG, and Hydrogen Fuel Cell buses. The only competition is 30ft electric buses (Gillig vs BYD). 40ft and 35ft Diesel, Hybrid, and CNG, (New Flyer Vs Gillig). 40ft Electric (BYD Vs New Flyer Vs Gillig). 60ft Electric buses (BYD Vs New Flyer).

 

I wish that Orion, NABI, and Flxible didn't go under.

Flxible was doomed so there is no way for them to ever return. I believe that Daimler still holds the rights to Orion, so perhaps Daimler might give transit buses another shot in the future for North America. NABI was brought out by New Flyer in 2015, so they are gone for good. Really, only Orion and Neoplan USA could possibly ever comeback as their parent companies still exist while the others no longer does.

I believe Van Hool could too as they are run by ABC companies and still make motorcoaches. 

[FlyerD901]

1 hour ago, New Yorker 2001 said:

Flxible was doomed so there is no way for them to ever return. I believe that Daimler still holds the rights to Orion, so perhaps Daimler might give transit buses another shot in the future for North America. NABI was brought out by New Flyer in 2015, so they are gone for good. Really, only Orion and Neoplan USA could possibly ever comeback as their parent companies still exist while the others no longer does.

I believe Van Hool could too as they are run by ABC companies and still make motorcoaches. 

I thought newflyer took something from Orion, parts business? It's been a while now, can't believe it's over 10 years for Orion. 

Maybe the only part of Orion that Flyer took was the outstanding orders Orion hadn't completed.

I think bus manufactureing will wait till after the Presidential elections to make any decisions. Not just Bus, but many other industry. I don't see anything happening until next year. 

Nova might end up reversing their decision to leaving the States 

[New Yorker 2001]

1 hour ago, FlyerD901 said:

I thought newflyer took something from Orion, parts business? It's been a while now, can't believe it's over 10 years for Orion. 

Maybe the only part of Orion that Flyer took was the outstanding orders Orion hadn't completed.

I think bus manufactureing will wait till after the Presidential elections to make any decisions. Not just Bus, but many other industry. I don't see anything happening until next year. 

Nova might end up reversing their decision to leaving the States 

Yeah, New Flyer only took Orion's parts business. They do not have the right to build fully functional Orion buses of any kind. Orion also gave them their outstanding contracts they didn't want to build as that probably would have otherwise delayed their closure until 2014 or so. Daimler wanted out ASAP (which was a really poor decision).

And you're right about the upcoming election having alot of weight in bus building. If Trump gets back in, the EPA will be severly weaked if not ceasing to exist altogther. That could bring back some interesting old ideas.

[Original_doll]

Whatever happens, I just hope we won't be left with only NFI and Gillig. That would be really boring lol.

[New Yorker 2001]

7 hours ago, Original_doll said:

Whatever happens, I just hope we won't be left with only NFI and Gillig. That would be really boring lol.

It's starting to shape up that way, BTW, why are there two ENC threads?

[FlyerD901]

4 hours ago, New Yorker 2001 said:

It's starting to shape up that way, BTW, why are there two ENC threads?

This subsection of All Vehicles makes more sense to talk about various manufacturers and their products. 

The Admins should move those threads into this subsection . 

Or start new threads with Bus Manufacturers and products in this subsection. But moving them here makes more sense, keep existing convos going. 

12 hours ago, Original_doll said:

Whatever happens, I just hope we won't be left with only NFI and Gillig. That would be really boring lol.

There was a time when it was GM and Flexible. Now, I personally wouldn't mind going back to that. Lol. Two stoke Detroits engines,  Man those were the days. 

But I do agree, wish their were may competition. But at the same time, plenty of transit agencies have to buy local to get funding. So the so called competition won't be there regardless because of that. They can't blind a plant in every State and Province.

[New Yorker 2001]

29 minutes ago, FlyerD901 said:

This subsection of All Vehicles makes more sense to talk about various manufacturers and their products. 

The Admins should move those threads into this subsection . 

Or start new threads with Bus Manufacturers and products in this subsection. But moving them here makes more sense, keep existing convos going. 

There was a time when it was GM and Flexible. Now, I personally wouldn't mind going back to that. Lol. Two stoke Detroits engines,  Man those were the days. 

But I do agree, wish their were may competition. But at the same time, plenty of transit agencies have to buy local to get funding. So the so called competition won't be there regardless because of that. They can't blind a plant in every State and Province.

Nova might want to reconsider moving back to Canada.

[FlyerD901]

1 hour ago, New Yorker 2001 said:

Nova might want to reconsider moving back to Canada.

You mean staying in the US? They'll do fine at least in Quebec. 

They've always been in Canada.

 

 

 

[jdbraun]

44 minutes ago, FlyerD901 said:

You mean staying in the US? They'll do fine at least in Quebec. 

They've always been in Canada.

 

 

 

I think New Yorker 2001 was refering to Nova rethinking their choice to pack up and leave the United States and go back to Canada. Not to speak for him but that's how I read it. 

[FlyerD901]

49 minutes ago, jdbraun said:

I think New Yorker 2001 was refering to Nova rethinking their choice to pack up and leave the United States and go back to Canada. Not to speak for him but that's how I read it. 

I figured. I was thinking the same thing.

They still have all of this year to think about it. And a Presidential election to ride out. 

[MVTArider]

12 hours ago, New Yorker 2001 said:

Nova might want to reconsider moving back to Canada.

I doubt they would. Once you announce as a corporation you're leaving a market, closing production and a plant, etc. it's done. ENC wasn't really direct competition for Nova anyways. Pace and LACMTA aside, the bulk of the 40' units ENC built were targeted more towards airport and university systems. Nova never really seemed to gain any popularity with those market types.

Another thing to consider is the total amount of heavy-duty transit buses in the US market may be in a gradual decline for the next decade. Many systems have not seen their Weekday 9-5 commuters return to post-pandemic beyond perhaps 30-60%. Most systems have also not seen regular ridership return to 100%. That translates in many cases to less of a need for a high peak number of service blocks, which means less buses overall needed to maintain the new levels of regular service. Longer term of course we'll likely see an upswing again as transit (hopefully) becomes more popular and grows again, thus driving up demand for more vehicles to be added to fleets. There's probably just going to be a lull in the meantime with Gillig and NFI filling most or all of the US orders.

I do find it interesting that REV opted to shut down ENC vs. selling them. I wonder if they are holding onto the rights and may start them up again in a few years if market conditions improve?

[FlyerD901]

Interesting take, and a lot of truth. A lot of transit systems have not returned to 100% prepandemic levels. And it sure is a reflection in the need for the same fleet levels as well. 

I just don't get how Nova thinks they can survive solely on the Canadian market. The US market is a bigger market overall.  Unless this is a slow kill for nova over a period of time? 

[Glennwood Road Ent.]

https://www.metro-magazine.com/10214675/rev-group-to-wind-down-enc-bus-operations?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Eldorado National has plenty bus orders left of this year to complete before October 2024 deadline. Unsure who will be the last customer for the ENC order before ceasing operations. 

[edison]

On 2/6/2024 at 2:31 AM, MVTArider said:

I doubt they would. Once you announce as a corporation you're leaving a market...

Another thing to consider is the total amount of heavy-duty transit buses in the US market...

I do find it interesting that REV opted to shut down ENC vs. selling them. I wonder if they are holding onto the rights and may start them up again in a few years if market conditions improve?

After REV took over, we really saw a lot of changes. Eldorado Kansas was sold to Forest River. Then the selection of models built in Riverside was reduced. It was just the Axess and EZ-Rider at the end.

Like many fleets in the US, RTS in Rochester NY's fleet is smaller than it once was. They are also using cutaways and vans for RTS On Demand, areas that were once served by fixed route (heavy duty buses) IIRC. I do believe ride-sharing has definitely put a dent in public transportation in some cities, especially those where headways are pretty spread out. I don't think college campus bus systems and airports had really any impact from ride-sharing. With that said, I think the transit bus market in the US is really tough for bus manufacturers. Even most of the medium duty buses have disappeared, Blue Bird Ultra LF, Optima, etc... Gillig has been careful how they do business. Which I believe that is why you really don't see their buses in any of the big cities like NY, LA, Chicago. Could you imagine having to deal with the incident like they had in Chicago with the 2003 NABI 60-LFW's in this market today... From what I took out of everything though, REV said the market is really competitive and they had supplier issues. I believe it. Getting parts for existing fleets is more difficult now than it ever has from what I've seen. Parts can be super expensive too.

I was wondering if REV tried selling that part of their manufacturing. Was it known they were selling Collins before it was officially sold?

[Transit Apologist]

On 2/1/2024 at 7:38 AM, New Yorker 2001 said:

Flxible was doomed so there is no way for them to ever return. I believe that Daimler still holds the rights to Orion, so perhaps Daimler might give transit buses another shot in the future for North America. NABI was brought out by New Flyer in 2015, so they are gone for good. Really, only Orion and Neoplan USA could possibly ever comeback as their parent companies still exist while the others no longer does.

I believe Van Hool could too as they are run by ABC companies and still make motorcoaches. 

I have read that Flxible as a brand was still doing well till the end, but they went out of business because their parent company was bleeding money and a deal to sell to Western Star/Orion fell through.

[FlyerD901]

15 hours ago, Transit Apologist said:

I have read that Flxible as a brand was still doing well till the end, but they went out of business because their parent company was bleeding money and a deal to sell to Western Star/Orion fell through.

This makes me wonder , what was GM situation before selling off their bus divsion? They dominated the industry.

Also, do we really believe what they say? When Orion went down, and used the excuse , they don't see a future for many bus purchases, and that's why they left. And there was a boom of purchases after they went down. 

[3we]

On 2/8/2024 at 11:11 AM, FlyerD901 said:

This makes me wonder , what was GM situation before selling off their bus divsion? They dominated the industry.

Also, do we really believe what they say? When Orion went down, and used the excuse , they don't see a future for many bus purchases, and that's why they left. And there was a boom of purchases after they went down. 

GM sold 2495 buses in 1980, but only 660 in 1986. And in 1986 the other builders were Flxible, Gillig, Neoplan, Orion, and  GMD/MCI Classic, (MAN ended production of the Americana in 1987, and Scania ended US production in 1988).  Since bidding and winning FTA-funded bus contracts is price sensitive (but not necessarily low-bid), GM probably found it more difficult to find an adequate return. And it probably saw development of a new model on the horizon and decided to pass.

ENC likely pays more for engines and transmissions than New Flyer, so it's not winning contracts on price.  And the demand for propulsion systems for electric buses is a choking point for NF and Gillig. ENC may not have been able to obtain steady flow of parts to keep a production line moving.

 

[MCIBUS]

Not really in the bus biz, but my thoughts are who has the "Deeper Pockets" by that I mean who can afford to give lower prices if your 'Parent Company' has billions? If Volo as an example sells)in Europe & Noth America and other countries either then the ones I mentioned) cars, trucks(both personal & Commercial), buses(both transit & inter-city/touring coaches) and any other holdings they may have, then it's easier to give lower prices to get the contracts. With both MCI & Nova own by large internation corperations making billions of $$ thru various subs then I can se why they are always winning contracts. IE Provost and the MTA Contract they just won?

 

Like I said not in the bus biz just a fan and could be mistaken on my opion?

[3we]

3 hours ago, MCIBUS said:

IE Provost and the MTA Contract they just won?

The Prevost contract was not competitively bid.

[MCIBUS]

31 minutes ago, 3we said:

The Prevost contract was not competitively bid.

How so?

[3we]

Click on image -