King County Metro - Seattle, Washington

[roamer]

On 5/28/2017 at 0:46 AM, Atomic Taco said:

It was difficult to get to a spot where I was close enough to the action and out of the sunlight.  Obviously I failed the second part, but in my haste to complete the first I didn't quite notice but it looked like one of the poles was on a wire.  It may have re-wired on to the wrong wire, which explains why it would be off the wire by the time I snapped the photo.

Understood, thanks for the explanation. 

[anonymous guy]

One thing I noticed over the Memorial Day weekend is that many trolleys lowered their poles entering 3rd and Pike northbound, while trolleys would lower their poles around 3rd and Cedar coming in southbound.

Does the 3rd and Virginia construction project have anything to do with this?

[David Brown]

1 minute ago, anonymous guy said:

One thing I noticed over the Memorial Day weekend is that many trolleys lowered their poles entering 3rd and Pike northbound, while trolleys would lower their poles around 3rd and Cedar coming in southbound.

Does the 3rd and Virginia construction project have anything to do with this?

 Yes it does the overhead wires have been deenergized for construction so operators are supposed to drop their poles at 3rd and pike heading towards queen Anne and their are pans to allow the operator to flip a switch and if aligned right the poles would reconnect without the operator having to get out and these are at 1st and broad st i believe and the same for going the opposite direction drop poles at 3rd and cedar and raise at 3rd and union in front of Benoroya Hall

[pnwelevator]

I kid you not, 1108 was on an all day Rt. 271... Were they really that strapped on Phantoms/XDE40s today???

[coordinator47]

On ‎6‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 5:26 PM, pnwelevator said:

I kid you not, 1108 was on an all day Rt. 271... Were they really that strapped on Phantoms/XDE40s today???

Yes.  Bellevue Base has very few spares right now.  1108 was all that was left for a yard change at pull out time. 

[rickycourtney]

So pictures of Metro's new "suburban" XDE60 coaches are starting to pop up online. 

So what makes these coaches "suburban?" No center door and whopping 4 extra seats. That's it. Same thin cushion seats as the urban coaches.

A Metro bus costs about 4¢ per second to operate. So let's say that losing one door means that a bus spends an extra 30 seconds per hour stopped at the curb waiting for passengers to exit. If that bus is on the street 16 hours a day, 250 days a year, for 12 years... that's roughly $57,600 dollars in additional operating costs over the life of the coach... or $5,760,000 for all 100 buses in this order.

All that so 4 more people can sit when the bus is full.

I realize that Metro's long range plan has the agency operating more all-day express routes... and that asking passengers to stand is unreasonable on these high-speed, long distance routes. That's why Sound Transit tries to keep standees to a minimum on their express routes. But because the routes are high-speed, long distance... Sound Transit also equips their coaches with much nicer seats, overhead luggage racks and reading lights.

Just thinking out loud... I'd enjoy hearing input from other members... especially those of you who may have some knowledge of Metro's thinking. 

[dancingfatpotato]

10 hours ago, rickycourtney said:

So pictures of Metro's new "suburban" XDE60 coaches are starting to pop up online. 

So what makes these coaches "suburban?" No center door and whopping 4 extra seats. That's it. Same thin cushion seats as the urban coaches.

A Metro bus costs about 4¢ per second to operate. So let's say that losing one door means that a bus spends an extra 30 seconds per hour stopped at the curb waiting for passengers to exit. If that bus is on the street 16 hours a day, 250 days a year, for 12 years... that's roughly $57,600 dollars in additional operating costs over the life of the coach... or $5,760,000 for all 100 buses in this order.

All that so 4 more people can sit when the bus is full.

I realize that Metro's long range plan has the agency operating more all-day express routes... and that asking passengers to stand is unreasonable on these high-speed, long distance routes. That's why Sound Transit tries to keep standees to a minimum on their express routes. But because the routes are high-speed, long distance... Sound Transit also equips their coaches with much nicer seats, overhead luggage racks and reading lights.

Just thinking out loud... I'd enjoy hearing input from other members... especially those of you who may have some knowledge of Metro's thinking. 

Where can I find these images?

[aznichiro115]

7 hours ago, dancingfatpotato said:

Where can I find these images?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/NorthwestBusFans/

[roamer]

Can somebody point me to where I can find those photos of some of the 8100s on the BusFans facebook page?  I'd like to see them too.  Wasn't able to find them quickly scanning through the page. Thanks.

[rickycourtney]

http://www.facebook.com/groups/1469406910034771?view=permalink&id=1665548940420566

You might have to be a member of the group to see anything at the link. 

[roamer]

2 hours ago, rickycourtney said:

http://www.facebook.com/groups/1469406910034771?view=permalink&id=1665548940420566

You might have to be a member of the group to see anything at the link. 

Ok, I see it in this link but didn't in the other.  Thanks.

 

[anonymous guy]

Coach 6864 spotted on route 128 - this route is typically serviced by 40 ft coaches/Orion VIIs. 

[Culver]

Is there any reason why the Ballard express routes - 15,17,18 - are all very late (or just don't show up in the 40's case) starting their runs in the PM rush? OBA will show either of the 15,17,18 idling at the first stop for a good 15 minutes and start running 5-10 minutes late.

EDIT: I know the 40 isn't an express route, but mentioned it since it also seems to suffer from chronic lateness

[northwesterner]

15 minutes ago, Culver said:

Is there any reason why the Ballard express routes - 15,17,18 - are all very late (or just don't show up in the 40's case) starting their runs in the PM rush? OBA will show either of the 15,17,18 idling at the first stop for a good 15 minutes and start running 5-10 minutes late.

EDIT: I know the 40 isn't an express route, but mentioned it since it also seems to suffer from chronic lateness

Most likely late arriving to the terminal from the previous trip. 

[dancingfatpotato]

Spotted something very peculiar, a DE60LFR serving on 246, a route that is usually run by Bellevue Base 30' phantoms. 

[pnwelevator]

4 hours ago, dancingfatpotato said:

Spotted something very peculiar, a DE60LFR serving on 246, a route that is usually run by Bellevue Base 30' phantoms. 

That is a Newport High School Take Home Tripper, they need that bigger bus to take all the high schoolers home, departs 3:40PM from the north side of the school and then serves the rest of the Somerset leg of Rt. 246 to Eastgate P&R

[roamer]

14 hours ago, pnwelevator said:

That is a Newport High School Take Home Tripper, they need that bigger bus to take all the high schoolers home, departs 3:40PM from the north side of the school and then serves the rest of the Somerset leg of Rt. 246 to Eastgate P&R

Exactly right.  That trip has been run for years (actually, for decades now) with an artic although the route was not always called or apart of the 246.  In fact, I can remember working it myself with D60s, Bredas, and MANs.  It usually is tacked on to the beginning of a longer tripper and that part only runs when Newport High is in session. 

eta:  Correction, apologies.  Now that I'm thinking harder about it, I don't think the Newport to Somerset trip was run for that long.  Although I'm certain that it was when I retired in 2005 when the 246 used Champion vans and that particular Newport High to Somerset trip usually had a D60 assigned.  I was thinking of another school trip that started at Newport and did a similar route back in the 90s..

[anonymous guy]

I have heard criticisms of the 2800s running sluggishly and underperforming in comparison to the 2600s lately. 

Not knowing much about the inner workings of the coaches, I would have assumed that the 2800s would be similar, if not better, in terms of performance due to the lack of heavy battery. Is there a reason for the discrepancy between the two?

[Atomic Taco]

48 minutes ago, anonymous guy said:

I have heard criticisms of the 2800s running sluggishly and underperforming in comparison to the 2600s lately. 

Not knowing much about the inner workings of the coaches, I would have assumed that the 2800s would be similar, if not better, in terms of performance due to the lack of heavy battery. Is there a reason for the discrepancy between the two?

Being "sluggish" could mean a lot of things, but if it refers to the acceleration the 2600s have a huge advantage with the electric motors.  An electric motor can provide all its torque immediately, which means it's easier to turn the wheels and get moving.

[northwesterner]

10 hours ago, roamer said:

Exactly right.  That trip has been run for years (actually, for decades now) with an artic although the route was not always called or apart of the 246.  In fact, I can remember working it myself with D60s, Bredas, and MANs.  It usually is tacked on to the beginning of a longer tripper and that part only runs when Newport High is in session. 

eta:  Correction, apologies.  Now that I'm thinking harder about it, I don't think the Newport to Somerset trip was run for that long.  Although I'm certain that it was when I retired in 2005 when the 246 used Champion vans and that particular Newport High to Somerset trip usually had a D60 assigned.  I was thinking of another school trip that started at Newport and did a similar route back in the 90s..

At one point, these two routes with "regular" route numbers covered Newport High School. Don't know the equipment they used...

https://web.archive.org/web/20000824172914/http://transit.metrokc.gov:80/bus/schedules/s207_0_.html

https://web.archive.org/web/20000824172919/http://transit.metrokc.gov:80/bus/schedules/s208_0_.html

[anonymous guy]

3 hours ago, Atomic Taco said:

Being "sluggish" could mean a lot of things, but if it refers to the acceleration the 2600s have a huge advantage with the electric motors.  An electric motor can provide all its torque immediately, which means it's easier to turn the wheels and get moving.

Thanks for the explanation - in context, I believe the criticism of the 2800s being "sluggish" was in the acceleration of the 2800s from a dead stop, and how much energy it sounded like the C9 engine was exerting just to get the coach moving.

I understood that the electric motor assisted the 2600s in climbing steep hills over the 2800s, but did not know how much it benefited acceleration.

[roamer]

10 hours ago, anonymous guy said:

Thanks for the explanation - in context, I believe the criticism of the 2800s being "sluggish" was in the acceleration of the 2800s from a dead stop, and how much energy it sounded like the C9 engine was exerting just to get the coach moving.

I understood that the electric motor assisted the 2600s in climbing steep hills over the 2800s, but did not know how much it benefited acceleration.

Believe me, there's a significant difference between a non -hybrid high numbered 2800 and a hybrid 2600 pertaining to acceleration from a dead stop.  This was true even when they were brand new.  It may be even worse today because nowadays, drivers are used to driving a variety of newer hybrids so getting behind the wheel of a non-hybrid 2800 may seem frustrating to drive. 

 

 

 

 

13 hours ago, northwesterner said:

At one point, these two routes with "regular" route numbers covered Newport High School. Don't know the equipment they used...

https://web.archive.org/web/20000824172914/http://transit.metrokc.gov:80/bus/schedules/s207_0_.html

https://web.archive.org/web/20000824172919/http://transit.metrokc.gov:80/bus/schedules/s208_0_.html

Thank you!  Yes, that does jog the memory a bit.  I remember working some of the Newport trippers using 2000 coaches.  I believe those are the ones you have pointed out.

I even remember driving a Breda on one of the Newport trippers.  I don't remember if it was a one-time event but it seems to me that for one for shakeup, they used a Breda on one of the Newport trippers that was tacked on, from my recollection, a 225 or 229 tripper.

Of course, they attempted to be careful on where they ran the Bredas because of their weight.  I believe that's why that particular piece of work only used a Breda for one schedule period  ...maybe because of complaints?  I remember once having a Breda all day (by some kind of mistake  ...shortage of equipment, coach change earlier, etc.) on a 235 that went through  Beaux Arts and they received complaints of the bus shaking the ground as it maneuvered though their narrow and windy road as it went through the neighborhood. 

[anonymous guy]

You could always "feel" the heft when a Breda dual mode bus went rumbling by. A Breda would buckle freshly laid asphalt within days. 

[northwesterner]

2 hours ago, roamer said:

Thank you!  Yes, that does jog the memory a bit.  I remember working some of the Newport trippers using 2000 coaches.  I believe those are the ones you have pointed out.

I even remember driving a Breda on one of the Newport trippers.  I don't remember if it was a one-time event but it seems to me that for one for shakeup, they used a Breda on one of the Newport trippers that was tacked on, from my recollection, a 225 or 229 tripper.

Of course, they attempted to be careful on where they ran the Bredas because of their weight.  I believe that's why that particular piece of work only used a Breda for one schedule period  ...maybe because of complaints?  I remember once having a Breda all day (by some kind of mistake  ...shortage of equipment, coach change earlier, etc.) on a 235 that went through  Beaux Arts and they received complaints of the bus shaking the ground as it maneuvered though their narrow and windy road as it went through the neighborhood. 

I suspect the Eastside was more sensitive to the use of the Bredas (on non-tunnel routes) than other areas. But was it really a factor when it came to scheduling? Who knows. The last one ran on the 73 over 12 years ago, and almost all those schedulers are retired.

But I do know that they were under pressure to use them as little as possible. Pull them off evening runs after the tunnel closed if they could (ie, have a standard diesel pull out in PM peak and do tripper service, then take over in evenings once the tunnel closed), etc.

I don't recall North Base ever really regularly assigning them to non-tunnel route trips (except for two or three shakeups with a single 358 PM Peak trip... I have a picture, somewhere). South Base used them as day base on the 174 regularly, especially before the 2300s were delivered, as they didn't have enough 2000s to cover all the runs. The other choice was a non-accessible 1400 (which did happen, but obviously was problematic ... have a photo of that around here somewhere too). East occasionally had them scheduled on some 252 and 257 trippers. Typically though, any of these trips where the Breda was standard equipment was part of a tripper that also did a tunnel trip on another route. 

Central had a creative scheduler in the early 2000s and used them the most off of their regular routes. For a couple of years there was a PM Peak 18X that deadheaded to CPS for a 106. Later that assignment switched to a 15X. Certainly the Blue Ridge and North Beach residents didn't appreciate the weight and shaking either, but that didn't force Metro to change equipment type. There were also many AM Peak trippers, often on the 15X/18X/21X. Remember the 71-family day base frequency didn't really ramp up until 9AM back then (when the 73 Cowen Park turnbacks started operating), so some of these AM trippers could have been the front end of a day base run on the 71. There was also, circa 2001, a Saturday run that did 71-series all day, then around 6PM deadheaded from Jackson Park (IIRC) to Shoreline Community College and did an inbound 5 local, and a roundtrip on the 54 before terminating downtown around 9PM. I also recall a regular AM tripper on the 36 with a Breda for a shakeup or two ... it was attached to the ferry terminal shuttle, the 98. That was probably around 2000 (pre-695).

[roamer]

No, you're right, it may not have factored into how work was cut.  I was just assuming that if there happened to be lots of input coming from residents of a particular neighborhood complaining the bus as shaking their house as it ran past on a non-arterial roadway, then I have to assume that the scheduler would then get a directive to re-assign the type of equipment used on that piece of work.

I'm not sure if that's what happened on the Newport trip that was tacked on to a tunnel tripper but from my recollection, it didn't last long.   Hypothetically, if a Breda happened to be assigned to one trip on, let's say, a 235 going through Beaux Arts and it was scheduled to go through there at the same time daily, if enough complaints from residents were received, then I'd have to believe that coach assignment would be taken off the next shakeup if not sooner.