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Orion VIII

King County Metro - Seattle, Washington

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Thanks for that contribution! That adds a lot of necessary context for Seattle.

You have an incredible transit system region-wide. And out of necessity (congestion) it has to get even better.

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I am really excited for the new Madison BRT. If I'm right, this will be replacing the 11 and 12, or just the 11? What I saw in the photo gallery is that the 2 and 12 bus stops on Union Street and 12th/13th avenues had red express lanes and stations for the BRT.

Will 13 XT60's be enough for this line? I know that the H line is followed after the G, but I'm really fascinated that these will be the first ever trolley rapidride buses; currently, we know that all of the rapidride fleet is hybrid-electric. This might have been asked or maybe it hasn't been, but what possibly could be the fleet numbers of these 13 new XT60's?

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1 hour ago, MetroFan6774 said:

I am really excited for the new Madison BRT. If I'm right, this will be replacing the 11 and 12, or just the 11? What I saw in the photo gallery is that the 2 and 12 bus stops on Union Street and 12th/13th avenues had red express lanes and stations for the BRT.

Will 13 XT60's be enough for this line? I know that the H line is followed after the G, but I'm really fascinated that these will be the first ever trolley rapidride buses; currently, we know that all of the rapidride fleet is hybrid-electric. This might have been asked or maybe it hasn't been, but what possibly could be the fleet numbers of these 13 new XT60's?

Other than your last question, everything else can be answered from this document.  Note it's preliminary and subject to change.

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6 hours ago, northwesterner said:

Probably both. They're an oddball fleet but they also operated as an isolated fleet at Ryerson Base for a decade - assigned to fill day base runs on the 120 and 48  seven days a week with very little tripper service.

 

I wouldn't be shocked if the fleet as a whole was substantially higher mileage than the 2600s.

Makes perfect sense. These days they appear to rotate with D60s and XDE60s rather than shouldering the burden. 

Some of the ridership on the 120 and 48 couldn't have helped much either. 

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19 hours ago, northwesterner said:

They're an oddball fleet but they also operated as an isolated fleet at Ryerson Base for a decade - assigned to fill day base runs on the 120 and 48  seven days a week with very little tripper service.

For the record, the 120 is now an Atlantic Base route (the only non-trolley route at the base).

But you're right, until the XDE60 coaches came online, the D60LF coaches saw very heavy use on day base runs on the 11, 24/124, 26/28/131/132, and 45/48. The use of the D60LF coaches seemed to become even more intense in the last couple of years when the DE60LFR coaches were moved to East. 

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1 hour ago, rickycourtney said:

For the record, the 120 is now an Atlantic Base route (the only non-trolley route at the base).

But you're right, until the XDE60 coaches came online, the D60LF coaches saw very heavy use on day base runs on the 11, 24/124, 26/28/131/132, and 45/48. The use of the D60LF coaches seemed to become even more intense in the last couple of years when the DE60LFR coaches were moved to East. 

Right, but the 120 only move to Atlantic about 3-3.5 years ago. I was referring to the near-decade between the delivery of those buses and the 120's move.

The roll-out of the 120 happened almost simultaneously with the delivery of the D60LFs in 2004. I don't remember 2300s ever running regularly on the route before the D60LFs. The D60LF fleet was assigned such that all day runs and the handful of trippers on the 120 had a D60LF, and then the remaining balance of coaches were assigned to day runs on the 48. 

And that was it. It was exceptionally rare to see one on any other route (usually, a single trip at the end of a 48 run ... senior operator "Flowers" used to do an A-run that was a 48 but did the last 26 Express of the evening before pulling in. It was always surprising to see that coach on a 26. 

The flip side, is I can only remember seeing a 2300 on the 120 a handful of times from 2004-2012. It was also exceptionally rare to see anything but a D60LF.

Towards the last year the 120 was a Ryerson the assignment logic changed and they just mixed the D60LFs in with 2300s. No obvious patterns in assignments, but as I've noted before, if you have a small oddball fleet and treat them separately, you'll abuse them. If you mix them in with what is the majority of the fleet and treat them as like vehicles, you'll spread the wear and tear out over a larger pool. It appears that's what Ryerson did. 

And then, as you noted, after the DE60LFRs left Ryerson, the usage on these vehicles picked, way way up again.

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If there are still D60's running in service during several times of the weekdays, how come routes 9X and 11 don't or rarely ever use the D60's anymore like they used to not too long ago?

I have also noticed the usage of less D60's on weekends.

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6 minutes ago, MetroFan6774 said:

If there are still D60's running in service during several times of the weekdays, how come routes 9X and 11 don't or rarely ever use the D60's anymore like they used to not too long ago?

I have also noticed the usage of less D60's on weekends.

The simple answer is that Ryerson Base has a substantially newer fleet and far fewer 2300s with the 8000s in service.

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1 hour ago, northwesterner said:

The roll-out of the 120 happened almost simultaneously with the delivery of the D60LFs in 2004.

Spot on; the 120 launched with the September 2004 service change.

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Does anyone know why the 6:00 KCM 246 did not run or show up at somerset this morning? I'm talking about the 246 to Clyde hill, I was 19 minutes Early and waited for 45 minutes, the bus showed it 2 minutes late, so I waited for that time, but after that time, it showed the bus had left, but the bus had not even stopped at my stop. 

As a result I was unable to attend to my classes, and I had to call for an Uber

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RapidRide H line can't come soon enough. 

I've had quite a few instances of afternoon/evening commute hour 120s reporting on time for arrival, inching up later in time - then disappearing from the tracker in favor of "estimated time" only to never arrive leaving large groups of passengers to pack the next coach due for arrival. 

Meanwhile you can spot steady streams of RapidRide Cs moving on by. 

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On ‎2‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 11:31 AM, anonymous guy said:

Out of curiosity, are the the 2800s considered higher mileage coaches? The 30 units are being marked for retirement while there will still be 3600s and 2600s roaming the streets. 

Or is it just a case of them being the oddball smaller numbered fleet of coaches?

 

On ‎2‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 11:41 AM, northwesterner said:

Probably both. They're an oddball fleet but they also operated as an isolated fleet at Ryerson Base for a decade - assigned to fill day base runs on the 120 and 48  seven days a week with very little tripper service.

 

I wouldn't be shocked if the fleet as a whole was substantially higher mileage than the 2600s.

Lifetime mileages on the 2800s are mostly in the upper 300K with a few in the 400K up to 422K.

Lifetime mileages on the 2600s are mostly in the 400K.  A few are in the 500K up to 561K.  North Base 2600s are in the 300K.

The 2800s are on the way out because their fuel economy average is 2.8 MPG, lower than any other fleet type.  The Ryerson Base 2300s in comparable service average 3.5 MPG.  2800s start running out of fuel at about 230 miles, or 15 hours of service.  6th gear is not enabled on their Allison B500 transmissions (Allison refused to enable 6th gear on any of the Caterpillar C9-engined coaches; it is not that Metro didn't want 6th gear).  Because their drivetrains have to work harder they wear out faster.

This information was derived from monthly coach inspection reports for January and February.

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Just now, MetroFan6774 said:

Somehow I just spotted 9541K on the 255. How is that's possible if that rout is hybrid only?

Mis-assigned; it'll probably run on the surface inbound and hopefully get swapped out for a tunnel coach at IDS.

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20 hours ago, coordinator47 said:

 6th gear is not enabled on their Allison B500 transmissions (Allison refused to enable 6th gear on any of the Caterpillar C9-engined coaches; it is not that Metro didn't want 6th gear).  Because their drivetrains have to work harder they wear out faster.

This information was derived from monthly coach inspection reports for January and February.

What was the reasoning for this on Allison's part? Power or torque curve?

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4165 and 4188 have found a home at the Renton fire training center.  They are being used for training for mass casualty incidents.  No idea why they have trolleys instead of diesels.

Gillig Trolleys at Renton Fire Training Center

 

Gillig Trolleys at Renton Fire Training Center

 

Have always wondered, what was with the bar above the rear door?

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I believe the bar is to keep the trolley poles from damaging the body when they are brought down to have their shoes replaced. There was a fire station along Rainier I think it was that had a number of 900s sans traction gear post retirement for similar training. As for why they have trolley coaches instead of motor coaches, for their purposes a bus body is a bus body and when they push them around the lot and tip them over, cut them up, or whatever it is they will do the propulsion package wont really matter. One benefit however, will be there are less fluids to drain prior to training and recycling. No diesel fuel tank to empty, no engine or transmission fluids to drain.

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I always assumed they had to be some sort of feature for trolley maintenance. I recall seeing bars mounted above the rear doors on the Bredas and MAN trolley coaches as well. 

I also thought Metro would have scavenged the trolley poles and destination signs for parts. 

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Just now, busdude.com said:

As for why they have trolley coaches instead of motor coaches, for their purposes a bus body is a bus body and when they push them around the lot and tip them over, cut them up, or whatever it is they will do the propulsion package wont really matter.

Figued it'd be easier to drive them around rather than tow them around; who knows if their Gradall (which was a rental) can lift a bus.

Just now, anonymous guy said:

I also thought Metro would have scavenged the trolley poles and destination signs for parts. 

The new trolleys are using different poles and all the new vehicles are using newer/brighter destination signs.

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10 minutes ago, anonymous guy said:

I always assumed they had to be some sort of feature for trolley maintenance. I recall seeing bars mounted above the rear doors on the Bredas and MAN trolley coaches as well. 

I also thought Metro would have scavenged the trolley poles and destination signs for parts. 

While they look similar, they are in fact totally different systems. 12+ years of new technology.

 

9 minutes ago, Atomic Taco said:

Figued it'd be easier to drive them around rather than tow them around; who knows if their Gradall (which was a rental) can lift a bus.

I'm sure they probally hire out a wrecker to come pull it to its final spot and help tip it over or whatever they do. a couple hundred dollars for a wrecker for this expensie vs the time and expense of trying to make the bus run those last twenty feet to its final resting spot after sitting for however long in whatever condition (often time they take non running equipment just because it does not matter for their training) is chump change in the cost of these exercises. And who knows, once you get the brakes released it doesn't take much to push a bus around, they could have a little tug from the maintance shop or something they use for that purpose as well.

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2 hours ago, Atomic Taco said:

 

 

 

 

Have always wondered, what was with the bar above the rear door?

The shop truck carries a ladder that has a set of hooks in the back side. The hooks fit onto that bar and allow the ladder to be secured to the side of the bus so that a mechanic can access the roof.

The bar + ladder set up replaces the tiny flip down steps present on the first generation trolley coaches.

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7 hours ago, anonymous guy said:

I always assumed they had to be some sort of feature for trolley maintenance. I recall seeing bars mounted above the rear doors on the Bredas and MAN trolley coaches as well.

The new XT40 and XT60 coaches have the bars too, but they're mounted aft of the rear door.

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On ‎3‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 10:23 PM, Culver said:

What was the reasoning for this on Allison's part? Power or torque curve?

None of my contacts in Fleet Engineering gave me a reason.  You'd have to ask Allison.

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