eja2k Posted January 15, 2012 Report Posted January 15, 2012 last night on TR 548X NONE of the lit maps, nor the next stop signs, were working.. the Audible were, but not the ones for Deaf people.. I got so frustrated, that I got off a Bloor/Yonge, & went & rapped my fist on the Supervisors door, & told them, to PLEASE let the 140 know... I'm not sure what you think a140 would do ... especially considering there isnt one at Bloor when the medic isn't there and the train would have been long gone if you were able to find one... It is more of an issue for the 299, and even then the problem might be something out of the scope of a line mechanic. There is a way to reset the system, but neither of us have a way of knowing if a reset was attempted and if it was or was not successful. Next time rather than storming about the station and knocking on doors and being a pain in the butt... do what you are asked to do on the annoying PA annocments and call 416-393-3030 to report it to customer service... the more info you can give 'em the better (car number, run number, time of day, and direction and location)
Shaun Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 I noticed that a few TR trainsets have flat spots on the wheels. Is this due to over efficient braking like the T1's? Or is it due to the operators being too hard on the brakes?
Turtle Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 I noticed that a few TR trainsets have flat spots on the wheels. Is this due to over efficient braking like the T1's? Or is it due to the operators being too hard on the brakes? What does "over efficient braking" mean?
63 Ossington Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 549X set testing midday today, run 197. Includes door operation testing. It had the scrolling "Testing Train" exposure up on the destos.
Shaun Posted January 19, 2012 Report Posted January 19, 2012 It basically means the brakes are too powerful causing the wheels to lock up creating flat spots.
Turtle Posted January 19, 2012 Report Posted January 19, 2012 It basically means the brakes are too powerful causing the wheels to lock up creating flat spots. That's what I thought you meant. So that's operator error, for applying too much brakes for the rail conditions.
cloudj Posted January 19, 2012 Report Posted January 19, 2012 I believe the breaking strength is all computer calculated based on what standees can handle
Turtle Posted January 19, 2012 Report Posted January 19, 2012 I believe the breaking strength is all computer calculated based on what standees can handle So that's operator error, for selecting a braking position that produces wheel slide. Put it another way, driving your personal car, is it the cars fault that you spin out on ice, or your fault for taking that turn too fast?
Buurin Posted January 19, 2012 Report Posted January 19, 2012 Rode 550x this morning. Took me this long to catch it.
Archer Posted January 20, 2012 Report Posted January 20, 2012 So that's operator error, for selecting a braking position that produces wheel slide. Put it another way, driving your personal car, is it the cars fault that you spin out on ice, or your fault for taking that turn too fast? Because driving your car is just like driving a very large multi-segment rail vehicle, right? Rather than passing judgment for a vehicle that I don't believe you've ever driven, why not let someone who has (rocketdriver, for one) actually comment as to what the problem is. You might be right, I don't know. But it just reeks of arrogance to just sit there and chime "Operator error" over and over without knowing the full details behind what is going on.
Turtle Posted January 20, 2012 Report Posted January 20, 2012 Because driving your car is just like driving a very large multi-segment rail vehicle, right? Uh, yes, both are similar in the way that if you apply too much brakes in slippery conditions, the wheels have a tendency to slide. Leaves, water/snow/condensation, grease from the track lubricators, ... all have an effect on traction. Rather than passing judgment for a vehicle that I don't believe you've ever driven, why not let someone who has (rocketdriver, for one) actually comment as to what the problem is. You might be right, I don't know. But it just reeks of arrogance to just sit there and chime "Operator error" over and over without knowing the full details behind what is going on. So you mean that an operator being overly aggressive on the brakes in slippery rail conditions isn't the cause for wheel slide and flats? I know that during my training I was told numerous times how to prevent wheel slide in weather on stops in the open cuts. If you can find me at work one day when it's just started to rain or snow, I can demonstrate how this works. I can even demonstrate it for you in the middle of winter at St. Patrick southbound on the first trip of the morning out of the yard after a good snow fall. I'll leave it to you to figure that one out.
rocketdriver2019 Posted January 20, 2012 Report Posted January 20, 2012 You're all partially right. Part of it is operators being too aggressive with the brakes, and part of it is the train. A small minority of operators do not compensate for slippery rails and just brake normally into outdoor stations. Basically if it doesn't cause an overshoot it's fine by them. It's wrong and annoys me to no end, but it is what it is. However, you will find a much higher occurrence of flats on T1s and TRs compared to H5s... so part of it is also that the braking systems on the newer trains are "over efficient", making it easy to flatten the wheels. While H5's aren't immune to flats, they are much less prone to them, and they are driven by the same operators so there is something in the braking system of the H5s that they got right in this regard. It is my belief that trains should be designed to take aggressive braking in mind (after all, sometimes it's unavoidable, like a malfunctioning signal in a winter storm tripping the train), and if it's that easy to put flats on a train, than it isn't a particularly well designed braking system.
Downsview 108 Posted January 21, 2012 Report Posted January 21, 2012 I believe the breaking strength is all computer calculated based on what standees can handle Really? How does that work?
Archer Posted January 21, 2012 Report Posted January 21, 2012 Uh, yes, both are similar in the way that if you apply too much brakes in slippery conditions, the wheels have a tendency to slide. Leaves, water/snow/condensation, grease from the track lubricators, ... all have an effect on traction. Yes, I know. I'm not stupid. The point I was trying to make was that a car at several metric tonnes is vastly different in how you have to handle the braking compared to that of a complete TR trainset at 202 metric tonnes. So you mean that an operator being overly aggressive on the brakes in slippery rail conditions isn't the cause for wheel slide and flats? I never said that, so don't be putting words into my mouth. I'm only saying (which was confirmed by rocketdriver) that it isn't necessarily the only cause of wheel slides and flats, not denying that it is a cause. All it takes is for the wrong brake pads, ones with a high coefficient of friction to be used, and you can easily get into a situation where they cause the wheel to stop turning before the train is stationary, even at minimal braking pressure.
Turtle Posted January 21, 2012 Report Posted January 21, 2012 However, you will find a much higher occurrence of flats on T1s and TRs compared to H5s... so part of it is also that the braking systems on the newer trains are "over efficient", making it easy to flatten the wheels. There is more than the 1 TR set that has flats? So if the braking system on the TR is "overly efficient", say compared to the H5, how would you explain all the platform overshoots operators have been getting with the TRs this month? Slower train, more overshoots? That doesn't make sense. While H5's aren't immune to flats, they are much less prone to them, and they are driven by the same operators so there is something in the braking system of the H5s that they got right in this regard. Probably has a lot to do with wheel composition, vehicle weight, and the fact that the H5's aren't jumpy at slow speeds. It is my belief that trains should be designed to take aggressive braking in mind (after all, sometimes it's unavoidable, like a malfunctioning signal in a winter storm tripping the train), and if it's that easy to put flats on a train, than it isn't a particularly well designed braking system. How about the operators take possible rail conditions into account and drive accordingly like they drill into us in training? Yes, I know. I'm not stupid. The point I was trying to make was that a car at several metric tonnes is vastly different in how you have to handle the braking compared to that of a complete TR trainset at 202 metric tonnes. Over 5x longer stopping distance for the train, but you don't have to worry about steering input on the train. Actually, the nicest thing about stopping the train is braking performance generally doesn't diminish on good rail with more weight, but my personal car takes longer to stop with a heavy load in it.
rocketdriver2019 Posted January 21, 2012 Report Posted January 21, 2012 There is more than the 1 TR set that has flats? Yes there is. I've heard plenty of flats on the TR sets. Including a couple that are annoyingly right under the operator's cab So if the braking system on the TR is "overly efficient", say compared to the H5, how would you explain all the platform overshoots operators have been getting with the TRs this month? Slower train, more overshoots? That doesn't make sense. Two ways... only one of which I will explain on a public forum. The over efficient braking causes the wheels to lock more easily on slippery rails, which causes the train to slide for longer distances (hence the flats) and overshoot... in other words, the same reason why most road vehicles these days have ABS brakes. Probably has a lot to do with wheel composition, vehicle weight, and the fact that the H5's aren't jumpy at slow speeds. So then why aren't the newer trains designed the same way? It worked on the H5's. How about the operators take possible rail conditions into account and drive accordingly like they drill into us in training? Agreed. But we both know not all operators are going to heed that advice, so why not at the same time make it harder to put flats on these trains, thus saving the commission money on by not having to constantly grind down or change out wheels due to flats?
Turtle Posted January 21, 2012 Report Posted January 21, 2012 Agreed. But we both know not all operators are going to heed that advice, so why not at the same time make it harder to put flats on these trains, thus saving the commission money on by not having to constantly grind down or change out wheels due to flats? The only real issue I have with putting "ABS" on the trains is that it has the potential to increase stopping distance in the case of equipment defects, where the systems wrongly detect a truck is spin/sliding. How many T1s have you operated with faulty speed sensors? At least with the T1s when that happens now, that car falls back into ep brakes, instead of lifting them completely. The last thing we need is one more reason for the trains to glide.
vivablue5215 Posted January 21, 2012 Report Posted January 21, 2012 From yrt304: 551x set assembled at Wilson.
smallspy Posted January 21, 2012 Report Posted January 21, 2012 Really? How does that work? First off, it has absolutely no bearing at all with the forces incurred on people inside, but rather is a mechanism to maintain operating characteristics across equipment that is fully loaded or completely empty. On older equipment, it worked as I explained it in this post: http://www.cptdb.ca/index.php?showtopic=8410&view=findpost&p=445172 On the TRs, I don't know how it works. It may work the same, or it may be something solid-state. Dan
Shaun Posted January 21, 2012 Report Posted January 21, 2012 Yes there is. I've heard plenty of flats on the TR sets. Including a couple that are annoyingly right under the operator's cab Two ways... only one of which I will explain on a public forum. The over efficient braking causes the wheels to lock more easily on slippery rails, which causes the train to slide for longer distances (hence the flats) and overshoot... in other words, the same reason why most road vehicles these days have ABS brakes. So then why aren't the newer trains designed the same way? It worked on the H5's. Agreed. But we both know not all operators are going to heed that advice, so why not at the same time make it harder to put flats on these trains, thus saving the commission money on by not having to constantly grind down or change out wheels due to flats? The entire braking system is controlled by computer, which has a software the controlls it. I'm sure that with some fine tune'ing that you would be able to find a sweet spot and prevent the wheels from locking up....at least in Theory. Are the TR trains actually slower than T1's and H5's?
Turtle Posted January 22, 2012 Report Posted January 22, 2012 Are the TR trains actually slower than T1's and H5's? Yes. H5s are fastest in operation, then T1, then TR. A TR is about as fast as a T1 with a full car eco. They aren't governed like the T1s and H5s, but going up hills they fall behind, 10 km/h slower in a lot of places. Doors are slower too. A delay about one second before they open with a good crew, and a couple longer before they close with the proper chime sequence. Some overly sensitive doors screwing things up and slowing things down. Seems like a gust of wind from a train on the opposite platform will make multiple sets of doors recycle. 547x I'm looking at you right now. Don't get me started on those exterior cab doors. Once the line is all TR, this will be irrelevant if they adjust the schedules. Give us reasonable scheduled dwell time at every station, and things will run more reliably. I'm thinking at least 10 extra seconds per stop, and 45 seconds scheduled for interchanges, and set up the system to do more finite headway adjustments. 1
63 Ossington Posted January 22, 2012 Report Posted January 22, 2012 Can't the mechs tinker around with the doors and adjust them to make them mre efficient?
Shaun Posted January 22, 2012 Report Posted January 22, 2012 Is there a HI Rate Switch on the TR's? And when the line is all T1's and TR's will they run train in Hi-rate?
Turtle Posted January 22, 2012 Report Posted January 22, 2012 Can't the mechs tinker around with the doors and adjust them to make them mre efficient? Not with opening. Times will improve with op experience, but there will always be a little delay while you have to wait for the train to be ready to open them. Basically with the T1s, as soon as the train recognizes no motion, you can open them. With the H5s, originally you could open them at any time, but they modified them a few years back to behave similarly to the T1. It turns out with some T1s and H5s, you can open them slightly before the train is completely stopped. The TR has one more safety check, and the operation of the doors is different, both which add varying delays based on both operators on the train. The big delays come from closing problems with over sensitive stubborn doors, and passengers who absolutely have to catch the train regardless of how packed it is, or how far up the stairs they are when the chimes ring. Is there a HI Rate Switch on the TR's? And when the line is all T1's and TR's will they run train in Hi-rate? Only the mechs have access to that. On the TR, it's not a switch, more of a mode you select through the computer. Usually hi rate is used for equipment defects, basically when more than one car has it's traction motors cut out. On the TR, everything is basically automatic, the train will shut down it's problem trucks itself without any op intervention, and will compensate for the lost power with the other motors. The operator probably won't even notice this happening, where on a T1 and H5 it's immediately obvious when you lose a car.
nfitz Posted January 22, 2012 Report Posted January 22, 2012 The big delays come from closing problems with over sensitive stubborn doors, and passengers who absolutely have to catch the train regardless of how packed it is, or how far up the stairs they are when the chimes ring.Passengers? The most blatant example I've seen of this recently, with the person running down the stairs and actually bouncing physically off the door that had just closed, was an off-duty TTC operator!
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