Double Decker Bus Order

[BCT-3122-D800-10240]

It is safe to say, that the seats will end up being the same model as the D60LFR, only because they are a very comfortable seat compared to the older model.

How do you know that for sure?

[Enviro_1203]

How do you know that for sure?

Never said I know for sure. I said it is safe to say, speculating that OC would probably order these seats because of their comfort, albeit, suburban coach seats have more comfort, wouldn't they take up more space, reducing the seating capacity.

[M.Wright]

Never said I know for sure. I said it is safe to say, speculating that OC would probably order these seats because of their comfort, albeit, suburban coach seats have more comfort, wouldn't they take up more space, reducing the seating capacity.

In fact I really don't mind those seats at all, I wish the NGs came with them, since the ride would be so much better with those seats. So yes, I agree that I could see OC going with them as well, but do we know for a fact? No we don't. In fact the only reason why I like riding the D60LFRs over any other bus is due to the seats. I did ride one out to Barrhaven from Hurdman on a express once, to the end of the line. I didn't get the usual "pain from sitting too long in the horrible seats of discomfort". I do find this a fair comparison since it's those type of routes that the Enviro 500s will be on once they arrive. I have done the exact same route and distance on a normal D60LF, and I did get the pain that I spoke of earlier.

Not only are they comfortable, but if we went with the same seats, they would allow for future flexibility to put on regular routes as well, since they would run the same risk of vandalism as the D60LFRs (which are put on overnight runs on the 95). But mind you I have yet to see one of those new seats vandalized. I *think* people finally appreciate them after years of discomfort. I know I do. Not to mention should we continue to have these problems with reliability we seem to be having with them, at least by going with the same seats as the D60LFRs, the express commuters won't get used to the suburban seatting and then complain to OC (which would get nowhere anyway) when they don't show up and an Artic shows up instead. At least if substitutes are needed, they will still get the same comfort, seeing as OC seems to think that comfort is important in this order.

Also not to mention once OC decides on something, they tend to stick with it, as history has proven. Look at almost all the buses ordered up until 1993, they all came with the same features and everything, especially 1991 to 1993. We probably would of continued with those specs if we didn't have that funding crisis after 1993. Then from 1998 (not the LFSs, but they come close) to 2004, all the buses then had very similiar specs as well. We are still keeping similiar specs since 2007, with the only difference of the change of seats. These might not of been long periods at a time, but it did prove through different models of buses, we still kept similiar specs. It only makes sense in a varied fleet like ours to at least keep parts standard to make maintenance easier. Of course there are parts that we cannot make standard due to the obvious differences in buses, but if you can make the majority the same, it makes maintenance easier.

Btw Enviro_1203, if you put "I think" in front of your post, that would of probably prevented this "misunderstanding". As I am reading it now and you might not of said that you know for sure, but you really implied it in that post. Too late now but I am letting you know for next time as this seems to be happening fairly commonly. Just remember, two words, "I think". That's all you need.

[BCT-3122-D800-10240]

Btw Enviro_1203, if you put "I think" in front of your post, that would of probably prevented this "misunderstanding". As I am reading it now and you might not of said that you know for sure, but you really implied it in that post. Too late now but I am letting you know for next time as this seems to be happening fairly commonly. Just remember, two words, "I think". That's all you need.

Exactly! Well said, M. Wright.

[M.Wright]

Exactly! Well said, M. Wright.

Your welcome and thanks for the compliment! I appreciate it!

On another topic, since I can't seem to find the double decker spottings thread (I could of sworn we had one that wasn't this one?)

Well anyway, 1201 is dead at Indy requiring work.

[JCL]

Latest word on the double deckers:

Delivery of the new DD's won't begin until September 2012 at the earliest, with delivery continuing into 2013. The reason for the "later than expected delivery" is because ADL was in the process of developing the low-height double deckers, in consultation with OC and GO Transit.

[Cimon8000]

Latest word on the double deckers:

Delivery of the new DD's won't begin would begin in September 2012 at the earliest, with delivery continuing into 2013. The reason for the "later than expected delivery" is because ADL was in the process of developing the low-height double deckers, in consultation with OC and GO Transit.

Thanks JCL, makes sense tho! Given that the fact that they will be the first re-designed Enviro 500 to be built(North America got it even earlier than Asia/Europe did) and the very first low height order as well, plus the fact that they are going to being delivered in kits and assembled in Eldorado plant in California, it will take longer than anticipated time to complete the order..............

this reminds me the delivery of GO Transit's first order.....which takes a long time to complete as well, as they are the very first 12.8m Enviro 500 ever manufactured..............

seems I still have next summer to shoot the remaining orion VI on the road............!!!!

[Enviro_1203]

Latest word on the double deckers:

Delivery of the new DD's won't begin would begin in September 2012 at the earliest, with delivery continuing into 2013. The reason for the "later than expected delivery" is because ADL was in the process of developing the low-height double deckers, in consultation with OC and GO Transit.

Any idea how many will be on each shipment, as they would be shipped across the ocean.

[JCL]

Any idea how many will be on each shipment, as they would be shipped across the ocean.

That level of detail was not given. The information comes from Mr. Mercier himself during today's special budget meeting.

[M.Wright]

Any idea how many will be on each shipment, as they would be shipped across the ocean.

As the post above yours stated, they will be assembled in California.

So I don't think the amount being shipped will really matter, since then they'll have to be transported across the states to California to be assembled.

Then once they are built, they will probably be driven from California up here, since also these will be the exact same height as a transport truck (13 feet, 6 inches is the standard height of a truck, and that of a new Enviro 500. Look it up if you don't believe me). So if anything these things will be regulated like a transport truck. Meaning no special treatment like we've had to do with the old ones.

Besides, if trucks were regulated in the same fashion our current Enviro 500s are, our economy would be nothing, since nothing would be able to get transported very easily.

[Cimon8000]

As the post above yours stated, they will be assembled in California.

So I don't think the amount being shipped will really matter, since then they'll have to be transported across the states to California to be assembled.

Then once they are built, they will probably be driven from California up here, since also these will be the exact same height as a transport truck (13 feet, 6 inches is the standard height of a truck, and that of a new Enviro 500. Look it up if you don't believe me). So if anything these things will be regulated like a transport truck. Meaning no special treatment like we've had to do with the old ones.

Besides, if trucks were regulated in the same fashion our current Enviro 500s are, our economy would be nothing, since nothing would be able to get transported very easily.

Exactly, the chassis with engine/transmission installed will be built up in UK, while body kits will be delivered in CKD form(completely knocked down), then assembled in California in order to make them "build in America". I would not worry about the delay in building the chassis up at Falkirk, UK as the huge plant there has a seperate assembly line for North America orders, but I would worry about the delay in building up the body kits by Eldorado in California.............see how long it takes them to build up the 23 buses order for Community Transit?..........holy............

[Centralsmt]

Exactly, the chassis with engine/transmission installed will be built up in UK, while body kits will be delivered in CKD form(completely knocked down), then assembled in California in order to make them "build in America". I would not worry about the delay in building the chassis up at Falkirk, UK as the huge plant there has a seperate assembly line for North America orders, but I would worry about the delay in building up the body kits by Eldorado in California.............see how long it takes them to build up the 23 buses order for Community Transit?..........holy............

The chassis aren't built in Falkirk, they are built at Guildford in Surrey, England, the bodywork will be built (or the kits will be) in Falkirk.

[Cimon8000]

The chassis aren't built in Falkirk, they are built at Guildford in Surrey, England, the bodywork will be built (or the kits will be) in Falkirk.

o yes nevermind I almost forgot that, Guildford plant for Chassis while the ADL body is finished at Falkirk, in case if the OC and GO Transit orders are being finished at California, then only the chassis will be built up at Guildford and no need to go all the way up Falkirk for body assembly.

attached is a photo of ADL Enviro 500 chassis being shipped to Hong Kong, while the body is sent in CKD form for local assemby

[Centralsmt]

It has been confirmed that the buses (and those for GO) will be bodied in Falkirk and shipped to Canada.

[Cimon8000]

It has been confirmed that the buses (and those for GO) will be bodied in Falkirk and shipped to Canada.

absolutely a good news on that..........then there's hope of delivering on time..........

[MCIBUS]

So if they 'are' delivered to Canada fully built, I'm assuming either they'll arrive either in Halifax or Montreal via a cargo ship.From there they'll be driven to OC. One catch since they have to travel from either Montreal or Halifax are they going to need "special permits" to travel to Ottawa?

[Centralsmt]

So if they 'are' delivered to Canada fully built, I'm assuming either they'll arrive either in Halifax or Montreal via a cargo ship.From there they'll be driven to OC. One catch since they have to travel from either Montreal or Halifax are they going to need "special permits" to travel to Ottawa?

They are shipped to Halifax and driven to Ottawa.

[MCIBUS]

They are shipped to Halifax and driven to Ottawa.

But do they need "special permits to be driven here? "

[jlarocque2005]

But do they need "special permits to be driven here? "

At bare minanum they should have temp licence plates before being fully commissioned in Ottawa.

[general682002]

But do they need "special permits to be driven here? "

I've told the new lower height DD will match the Transport Truck height, so special permit won't be required. Previous delivery for BC Transit may have told the delivery drivers where they go.

I'm surprise the full assembly are to be build in Scotland, I guess they decided not to share build with the US.

[MCIBUS]

I've told the new lower height DD will match the Transport Truck height, so special permit won't be required. Previous delivery for BC Transit may have told the delivery drivers where they go.

I'm surprise the full assembly are to be build in Scotland, I guess they decided not to share build with the US.

I'm not sure how many systems in Canada are getting the DD buses either then Go Transit, OC & BC,

but perhaps its easier for the OC & GO orders to be built complete in Scotland and ship here, rather then having certain parts shiped from Scotland across the country to California then shipped back across the countruy to OC & GO. Perhaps the BC order may be assemblied in California then shipped up the coast to BC. I'm not sure which way or if it would be cheaper to do it one way or the other?

[general682002]

I'm not sure how many systems in Canada are getting the DD buses either then Go Transit, OC & BC,

but perhaps its easier for the OC & GO orders to be built complete in Scotland and ship here, rather then having certain parts shiped from Scotland across the country to California then shipped back across the countruy to OC & GO. Perhaps the BC order may be assemblied in California then shipped up the coast to BC. I'm not sure which way or if it would be cheaper to do it one way or the other?

Ever since the DD buses have come to Canada, not one was in California final assembly but it would be in the US only because of the local compliant.

[Centralsmt]

I'm not sure how many systems in Canada are getting the DD buses either then Go Transit, OC & BC,

but perhaps its easier for the OC & GO orders to be built complete in Scotland and ship here, rather then having certain parts shiped from Scotland across the country to California then shipped back across the countruy to OC & GO. Perhaps the BC order may be assemblied in California then shipped up the coast to BC. I'm not sure which way or if it would be cheaper to do it one way or the other?

Canadian Spec vehicles do not come under the "Buy America criteria", this only applies to buses built for US operators. Dont also forget Falkirk is actually nearer Canada than California! This information comes direct from ADL themselves.

Remember buses are only assembled in the US, all the parts still come from Scotland and England and have to be shipped there, no parts are actually manufactured by El Dorado.

[M.Wright]

But do they need "special permits to be driven here? "

I've told the new lower height DD will match the Transport Truck height, so special permit won't be required. Previous delivery for BC Transit may have told the delivery drivers where they go.

I'm surprise the full assembly are to be build in Scotland, I guess they decided not to share build with the US.

I know Sherman answered this but I'll add onto it. Basically MTO's Maximum regulated height is 4.15 meters, anything above but still under 4.3 meters requires a special permits. Anything above 4.3 meters is not allowed on any road in the Province of Ontario. Our current Enviro 500s were over 4.15 meters so they required the special permits.

HOWEVER

Our new Enviro 500s are 4.11 meters tall. Therefore they are 0.04 meters under the regulations and can be regulated just like a Orion VI can be regulated. Therefore this also means we shouldn't have any additional rules forced on us (like the no moving while people are standing on the top deck rule, which I hated with a passion). This also should be mean no special training will be required. However I still think OC should run a bit of a training course so drivers get used to having another deck above them, but we won't be required to provide training as to the MTO, these will be just regular buses.

Transport Trucks are also generally 4.11 meters tall as well.

And even though OC Transpo is federally regulated, since our vehicles are licensed in the Province of Ontario, we do have to obey the Highway Traffic Act, which the Maximum Regulated Height is listed under it, available on www.e-laws.gov.on.ca . We also have to obey any other motor vehicle acts (such as the Public Vehicles Act), but when it comes to other stuff such as labor, we do not have to listen to the Province as they are powerless on the issue. Hope this clears up the whole federally regulated issue.

On the topic of buses, did you know under the Highway Traffic Act, you could actually operate a double articulated bus in the Province of Ontario? As I just realized under the length section that last year, they added that

"( an articulated bus that meets the requirements prescribed by regulation may have a length that exceeds 12.5 metres but does not exceed 25 metres. 2010, c. 16, Sched. 12, s. 2 (12)."

In other words, the use of buses 25 meters and under is allowed, which the AGG300 is 25 meters long. (Regular articulated buses for reference are 18 meters generally, so they would fall under this same regulations).

Surprised no one has taken advantage of that yet. But then again there is really no need at any of the transit systems in Ontario, nor does anyone have the facility to service them yet, so that is probably a factor. But this is also very recent because the "2010, c. 16, Sched. 12, s. 2 (12)." indicates when the amendment was made. This would of been handy for OC Transpo back in the 1980s however, not so much anymore since now we're focused on the LRT. Nor will we need them after the LRT opens since regular articulated buses could handle the traffic just fine, since we'll have so many extra buses after it opens.

Either way, now AGG300s are allowed in the Province of Ontario. So I started a discussion here about the issue so we don't go off topic

[MCIBUS]

Ottawa could, if I recall years back OC was going to trial double artics from Reanaut(SP) but the deal fell through. If you go to Merivale you can see where they modified the garage to have hoist for them.

I'll bet you anything if we didn't have snow here we would have double artics today.