Montréal-Ouest AMT security guard harasses photographers

[emdx]

Last tuesday late afternoon, I was at Montréal-Ouest with a friend from France and we took pictures of commuter trains.

We arrived by foot from the north from Westminster avenue, and we first shot a Delson train from the west end of the westbound platform where it meets the Westminster avenue sidewalk.

At this place, we are both on the train platform (where you can be when the crossing gates are down), but outside of the fare control zone (so we don’t need a ticket).

We stayed there for about 20 minutes, in full view of a CP constable who was parked 100 feet west of the old signal tower. After the second train, the constable left without even looking at us.

Eventually, we moved to the east end of the station via Broughton and Hartley (south of the station) and settled on the Elmhurst crossing, where we took pictures from the east end of both platforms. After about 20 minutes, the AMT security guard came and said that it is prohibited to take pictures without a permit.

I say that in the regulations, there is no such prohibition. (And I **KNOW** the regulations look by yourself, and the word photography is not mentionned a single time). Of course, he is not happy and says that he is going to call the police.

I call his bluff: “fine, they will tell you that it is not forbidden to take pictures”. He leaves, and for the next hour and a half we stayed there, no police, neither CP, City nor AMT fare inspectors (who have the status of police on AMT property, and then, solely to enforce the regulations) ever showed up.

So if you know what you can do, make a stand for your rights and do not act foolishly, you ought to be free from interference from clueless employees.

[boo2277]

I've made it a point to clearly read the regulations and no where it states anything about photography so i'm always videotaping and photographing trains without worry.

[joseph99929]

I hate that guy! He was a big, black man right? He made me miss my train once, the f*****! Sorry for my profanity, but when it comes to him, it's definitely warranted.

[emdx]

Well, he's black, yes; which is strange, because blacks don't usually act like douchebags (I like blacks because they're the only ones who will smile back when you smile at them and they are generally cool 99.44% of the time). He was not too obnoxious about it and just let go when I would not cave-in.

If you missed your train because of him, provided you did not do anything unsafe, you should definitely lodge a complaint against him.

[joseph99929]

Well I was walking in from the northeast trying to catch a Saint-Jerome-bound train. I was a bit late and the bars went down. When this happens, I just wait for the train to pass and then run to catch up, and I've always made it. However, at the same time there was a Lucien-L'Allier bound train on the other side of the station coming in, so the bars did not go up in time and he did not let me run for my train. This is stupid, because the only track I have to cross to get to the platform is the Saint-Jerome track, which is obviously safe to cross considering my train just stopped at the station.

[JeremyA]

Well I was walking in from the northeast trying to catch a Saint-Jerome-bound train. I was a bit late and the bars went down. When this happens, I just wait for the train to pass and then run to catch up, and I've always made it. However, at the same time there was a Lucien-L'Allier bound train on the other side of the station coming in, so the bars did not go up in time and he did not let me run for my train. This is stupid, because the only track I have to cross to get to the platform is the Saint-Jerome track, which is obviously safe to cross considering my train just stopped at the station.

Why couldn't you just duck under the bar? I do this all the time if I have to get onto the platform, and not actually cross the track where there's a train...

[joseph99929]

Cause the guy stopped me.. that's what I would have done..

[Mark Walton]

Well I was walking in from the northeast trying to catch a Saint-Jerome-bound train. I was a bit late and the bars went down. When this happens, I just wait for the train to pass and then run to catch up, and I've always made it. However, at the same time there was a Lucien-L'Allier bound train on the other side of the station coming in, so the bars did not go up in time and he did not let me run for my train. This is stupid, because the only track I have to cross to get to the platform is the Saint-Jerome track, which is obviously safe to cross considering my train just stopped at the station.

You never know. Safety Rule # 1: Train time is any time, on any track, in either direction. One train may hide another. Had you been caught, you wouldn't have a leg to stand on!

[joseph99929]

umm... Not really, the only track I have to cross is the track where the train is stopped. I did not have to cross any live tracks.

[Downsview 108]

Thanks for the heads up.

I tried to videotape the ride out of Lucien L'allier but an inspector said I couldn't film. I stopped filming because I wasn't 100%.

[emdx]

Print the regulations, study them, bring them with you. At least, be 100% on them!!!

In my opinion, the best rolling stock for filming in the front is the old CPR 900 gallery cars; the front window has no cab behind or besides it, no crewman needs to go there to operate the train, and you do not stand in the way of anyone when doing so. Any other kind of rolling stock leaves you an a murky legal zone.

Note, IANALLL, so the following shall not be construed as legal advice, but merely what I would do in such a case.

Did you study the regulations? No? Then go back to the top of this post.

At all time, if you have baggage, you will keep it securely zipped-up. Nothing inside shall be visible for outside.

When confronted, keep the camera running. Do not tell the inspecteur you are still filming. You may pretend to stop the camera. You may want to setup your camera strap so, if let down, it will hang from your neck with the lens up; before doing so, you will hit the zoom switch to wide angle. Practice, practice, practice. Before you leave the house, if the camera has a blinking light when recording, you may want to cover it with electrical tape.

If you are with someone else who is not the target of the inspecteur's wrath, have him observe everything, preferably from a nearby seat; if he can film or record what happens stealthily, so much the better, but do not count on it. He should not intervene in any way whatsoever; if you get off the train, have him follow you. Do not say anything to him.

Ask the inspecteur to show you which regulation prohibits that (DO NOT BRING YOUR COPY OUT!!!).

Did you study the regulations? No? Then go back to the top of this post.

If he has no copy of the regulations on him, do not say anything but "as there is no regulation against that (there is none - you will have studied the regulations), I will continue filming". At that time, you could pull out the regulations and ask him which regulation is broken. He will probably dismiss the printout. In such a case, do nothing about it. Pocket it back, you do not want to be fined for littering. When you open your bag, you never let the inspecteur look into it. Not even a side glance.

At no time you will shout; this comes under the handy catch-all label of "disorderly conduct". You keep your voice perfectly normal, the more so if you are shouted at. And you keep looking the inspecteurs in the face, keeping a neutral face. Do not let your gaze wander at any moment.

Did you study the regulations? No? Then go back to the top of this post.

If he insists, note down his badge number, and say you will complain for harassment. At this point, this will likely escalate, which is why you keep filming/recording.

If he asks for identification, you will ask if you are arrested or detained, and for which infraction. At that point, you do not say anything else at all. Keep filming all the time. If you are not told why, under which regulation, ask again.

If he says why (probably for obstruction, either of justice or of the aisle), STFU and do not say anything **AT ALL** except "I do not consent to talk to you". Have him write you the ticket. DO NOT SAY ANYTHING AT ALL, NOT EVEN "thanks" FOR THE TICKET. You always keep recording. When contesting the ticket in court, you will have the tape to prove that you were harassed while doing something that is not prohibited. If the tape is confiscated, lodge a complain for theft; and make sure the fact that a tape has been confiscated is written on the police report (of which you will, of course, demand a copy).

They cannot otherwise touch your camera or threaten you because it is filming. If so, you can complain for "interference to chattels". By now, of course, they will have thoroughly demonstrated the inexistence of a "no film" rule.

In any case, even if you are arrested, if they demand to search your person (frisking IS searching - so is asking "what do you have in your pockets?") or your baggage, you simply state that you do not consent to be searched. If they go ahead, you just keep repeating that you do not consent to be searched (and say nothing else) the whole time. Make sure that your refusal to be searched is recorded in the police report. Insist for it.

Refusal to be searched when arrested or not nor to provide identification when not arrested **IS NOT PROBABLE CAUSE TO ARREST YOU FOR WHATEVER**.

At no point you will point out to other passengers that they exagerate; the other passengers are at least as smart as you are, and will have figured this out by themselves. If the inspecteurs behave like arses, well, they will have figured that out, too. You totally ignore the other passengers, even if you feel you are an arse (don't worry, the inspecteurs are bigger arses than you are).

If, when asked, he does not says why you are detained/arrested (that's the only occasion you can be legally demanded identification), this is because he clearly knows that there is no such rule. His demand to produce identification is then illegal and you are in no way to obey an illegal order. Of course, at this point, this will most probably end up with the police. In that case, since they want to waste your time, you have a wonderful occasion to waste the time of as many officers as possible by simply refusing to answer any question ("I do not wish to talk to you") and refusing to be searched; in no way such behaviour can be construed as being probable cause to arrest you.

You will probably be forcibly detained and manhandled. The train will also probably be delayed at a station. If they demand you get off before your stop, you will state that you have a ticket to go further, and as you did nothing they could demonstrate to be illegal, you will ask again under which provision of the regulations you are thrown off the train, and say nothing else.

You will probably be gratified by a ticket. This is all that matter of the whole exchange.

At that time, you may seek legal assistance to contest it; if you are a student, your college may have a volunteer legal clinic. If not, your local college will most likely have one. Make good use of it.

You will have, of course, recorded everything and put the whole recording on You Tube.

Did you study the regulations? No? Then go back to the top of this post.

Oh, needless to say, you will also lodge a formal complaint both at the AMT, **AND** the police ethics commission. It is useless to state that fact to the inspecteurs, they do not need to know about that; in fact, it could hinder your chances at successfully resolving your case in front of the commission. (Inspecteurs are legally considered police - only on the transit system - and are thus covered by the police ethics commission). Also, do not ask how to contest the ticket; this will most probably ruin your chances to get it thrown out in court.

THIS IS WHY YOU NEVER TALK TO THE POLICE -

,

(best 45 minutes you can spend on the Internet, and it's even entertaining).

[Downsview 108]

Thank you for that information. I will save this page and a copy of the regulations.

But seeing as my french isn't totally fluent, is there an english copy as well?

Also, since I'm from Toronto, is there any special advice you have for out of towners being detained or arrested falsely and what to do about any court date?

thanks again!

[TheAverageJoe]

Print the regulations, study them, bring them with you. At least, be 100% on them!!!

In my opinion, the best rolling stock for filming in the front is the old CPR 900 gallery cars; the front window has no cab behind or besides it, no crewman needs to go there to operate the train, and you do not stand in the way of anyone when doing so. Any other kind of rolling stock leaves you an a murky legal zone.

Note, IANALLL, so the following shall not be construed as legal advice, but merely what I would do in such a case.

Did you study the regulations? No? Then go back to the top of this post.

At all time, if you have baggage, you will keep it securely zipped-up. Nothing inside shall be visible for outside.

When confronted, keep the camera running. Do not tell the inspecteur you are still filming. You may pretend to stop the camera. You may want to setup your camera strap so, if let down, it will hang from your neck with the lens up; before doing so, you will hit the zoom switch to wide angle. Practice, practice, practice. Before you leave the house, if the camera has a blinking light when recording, you may want to cover it with electrical tape.

If you are with someone else who is not the target of the inspecteur's wrath, have him observe everything, preferably from a nearby seat; if he can film or record what happens stealthily, so much the better, but do not count on it. He should not intervene in any way whatsoever; if you get off the train, have him follow you. Do not say anything to him.

Ask the inspecteur to show you which regulation prohibits that (DO NOT BRING YOUR COPY OUT!!!).

Did you study the regulations? No? Then go back to the top of this post.

If he has no copy of the regulations on him, do not say anything but "as there is no regulation against that (there is none - you will have studied the regulations), I will continue filming". At that time, you could pull out the regulations and ask him which regulation is broken. He will probably dismiss the printout. In such a case, do nothing about it. Pocket it back, you do not want to be fined for littering. When you open your bag, you never let the inspecteur look into it. Not even a side glance.

At no time you will shout; this comes under the handy catch-all label of "disorderly conduct". You keep your voice perfectly normal, the more so if you are shouted at. And you keep looking the inspecteurs in the face, keeping a neutral face. Do not let your gaze wander at any moment.

Did you study the regulations? No? Then go back to the top of this post.

If he insists, note down his badge number, and say you will complain for harassment. At this point, this will likely escalate, which is why you keep filming/recording.

If he asks for identification, you will ask if you are arrested or detained, and for which infraction. At that point, you do not say anything else at all. Keep filming all the time. If you are not told why, under which regulation, ask again.

If he says why (probably for obstruction, either of justice or of the aisle), STFU and do not say anything **AT ALL** except "I do not consent to talk to you". Have him write you the ticket. DO NOT SAY ANYTHING AT ALL, NOT EVEN "thanks" FOR THE TICKET. You always keep recording. When contesting the ticket in court, you will have the tape to prove that you were harassed while doing something that is not prohibited. If the tape is confiscated, lodge a complain for theft; and make sure the fact that a tape has been confiscated is written on the police report (of which you will, of course, demand a copy).

They cannot otherwise touch your camera or threaten you because it is filming. If so, you can complain for "interference to chattels". By now, of course, they will have thoroughly demonstrated the inexistence of a "no film" rule.

In any case, even if you are arrested, if they demand to search your person (frisking IS searching - so is asking "what do you have in your pockets?") or your baggage, you simply state that you do not consent to be searched. If they go ahead, you just keep repeating that you do not consent to be searched (and say nothing else) the whole time. Make sure that your refusal to be searched is recorded in the police report. Insist for it.

Refusal to be searched when arrested or not nor to provide identification when not arrested **IS NOT PROBABLE CAUSE TO ARREST YOU FOR WHATEVER**.

At no point you will point out to other passengers that they exagerate; the other passengers are at least as smart as you are, and will have figured this out by themselves. If the inspecteurs behave like arses, well, they will have figured that out, too. You totally ignore the other passengers, even if you feel you are an arse (don't worry, the inspecteurs are bigger arses than you are).

If, when asked, he does not says why you are detained/arrested (that's the only occasion you can be legally demanded identification), this is because he clearly knows that there is no such rule. His demand to produce identification is then illegal and you are in no way to obey an illegal order. Of course, at this point, this will most probably end up with the police. In that case, since they want to waste your time, you have a wonderful occasion to waste the time of as many officers as possible by simply refusing to answer any question ("I do not wish to talk to you") and refusing to be searched; in no way such behaviour can be construed as being probable cause to arrest you.

You will probably be forcibly detained and manhandled. The train will also probably be delayed at a station. If they demand you get off before your stop, you will state that you have a ticket to go further, and as you did nothing they could demonstrate to be illegal, you will ask again under which provision of the regulations you are thrown off the train, and say nothing else.

You will probably be gratified by a ticket. This is all that matter of the whole exchange.

At that time, you may seek legal assistance to contest it; if you are a student, your college may have a volunteer legal clinic. If not, your local college will most likely have one. Make good use of it.

You will have, of course, recorded everything and put the whole recording on You Tube.

Did you study the regulations? No? Then go back to the top of this post.

Oh, needless to say, you will also lodge a formal complaint both at the AMT, **AND** the police ethics commission. It is useless to state that fact to the inspecteurs, they do not need to know about that; in fact, it could hinder your chances at successfully resolving your case in front of the commission. (Inspecteurs are legally considered police - only on the transit system - and are thus covered by the police ethics commission). Also, do not ask how to contest the ticket; this will most probably ruin your chances to get it thrown out in court.

THIS IS WHY YOU NEVER TALK TO THE POLICE -

,

(best 45 minutes you can spend on the Internet, and it's even entertaining).

Good to know since im going to Montreal in November

[emdx]

 

 

Also, since I'm from Toronto, is there any special advice you have for out of towners being detained or arrested falsely and what to do about any court date?

This is where your friendly neighbourhood lawyer has his uses.

[TDE]

I still took the photo after he told me not to. But meh, he turned around just nano seconds after this photo lol.

[ddhomer]

That is nice to know! But, why would they even care that someone takes a picture? They wouldn't want to show their trains/stations or what? Anyways, I'm guessing a lot of people are taking pictures all the time, for example whenever I would ride the GoTrain, there would always be people taking pictures with their friends and so on!

[joseph99929]

Well the guy's no longer there! I take the train daily from Montreal-Ouest, haven't seen him in a while. Another guy replaced him, he's much more polite I find.