M. Parsons Posted September 15, 2006 Report Share Posted September 15, 2006 Found out about this one tonight... www.edmontonbrt.ca Edit: Random thought about BRT... Why does ETS want signs displaying when the next bus is due at the BRT stops? I would hope that because it is BRT, it is frequent enough that you don't care when the next one is because you know it will be along soon. We don't have signs telling us how long until the next LRT is due... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modulator Posted September 15, 2006 Report Share Posted September 15, 2006 I would hope that because it is BRT, it is frequent enough that you don't care when the next one is because you know it will be along soon. Keep hoping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edmontonguy Posted September 15, 2006 Report Share Posted September 15, 2006 Maybe to make it seem more modern or something? In Sydney the rail network has entirely computerized signage that runs on LCD screens, displaying train size, complete list of destinations as well as when it is due, which during rush hour can be only a few minutes. As far as the transportation masterplan goes, they tout it in the video on the website as the end all, be all of transit, personally though it is a consice guide to a vision for the future a lot of the ideas have been around since the early 80's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captaintrolley Posted September 15, 2006 Report Share Posted September 15, 2006 Random thought about BRT...Why does ETS want signs displaying when the next bus is due at the BRT stops? Random answers: Just another item to add to the expense account. Just another thing to break down / go wrong. Because it's ETS we're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Board Admin A. Wong Posted September 15, 2006 Board Admin Report Share Posted September 15, 2006 Because VIVA has it probably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T6H-5307N Posted September 16, 2006 Report Share Posted September 16, 2006 Kind of interesting, in that the video they play gives the textbook definition of BRT, then they proceed to flog an enhanced express service with bus lanes (already have those) and priority jump lights (already have them) and transponder activated lights (ok, we don't have them) and NO private right of way. I'm a wee bit concerned with the thought of using DE's on the BRT though, as Seattle had a few problems with them, in that a DE is best employed in a busy stop & go corridor to allow the regen braking time to charge batteries One ETS staffer mentioned that don't plan to install air conditioning (due to cost), NOT a good plan in my opinion, as how do you lure somebody out of their air conditioned car and onto a hot bus? Other item, how long before the bus only lane becomes HOV or allows busses, taxis and bikes like 109 street northbound, which then totally defeats the whole concept of a bus lane Last item deals with the busses all dropping off passengers at the south campus station and not going into the UofA. Will there be sufficient capacity on the cars to allow new passengers to grab a seat or will it be crammed to the doors with all the new passengers coming from the south? Normally these things would be organsied better, but once again, this is ETS we are talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modulator Posted September 16, 2006 Report Share Posted September 16, 2006 Kind of interesting, in that the video they play gives the textbook definition of BRT, then they proceed to flog an enhanced express service with bus lanes (already have those) and priority jump lights (already have them) and transponder activated lights (ok, we don't have them) and NO private right of way. What I like best is the narrator riding on the LRT explaining how much better buses are "flexibility...at a cost Edmonton can afford!" I'm a wee bit concerned with the thought of using DE's on the BRT though, as Seattle had a few problems with them, in that a DE is best employed in a busy stop & go corridor to allow the regen braking time to charge batteries Yep. Good luck getting that message through though. One ETS staffer mentioned that don't plan to install air conditioning (due to cost), NOT a good plan in my opinion, as how do you lure somebody out of their air conditioned car and onto a hot bus? I don't think A/C is that critical in Edmonton. Besides, this is a rapid bus that's not going to be sitting in traffic...(ha!) Other item, how long before the bus only lane becomes HOV or allows busses, taxis and bikes like 109 street northbound, which then totally defeats the whole concept of a bus lane Already the plan. Not that it matters, since there are few to no bus lanes planned anyway. Last item deals with the busses all dropping off passengers at the south campus station and not going into the UofA. Will there be sufficient capacity on the cars to allow new passengers to grab a seat or will it be crammed to the doors with all the new passengers coming from the south? It'll be even worse at the U of A if trains are arriving full and then being filled with students. Why not just build LRT to the west? Oh, right, because then we'd have to actually spend money on transit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Parsons Posted September 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2006 Last item deals with the busses all dropping off passengers at the south campus station and not going into the UofA. Will there be sufficient capacity on the cars to allow new passengers to grab a seat or will it be crammed to the doors with all the new passengers coming from the south?[/color] And not just capacity, but convience. You hop on this express... errr.. BRT bus and ride to South Campus (you're probably a University student. If not, and you're heading Downtown... YOU'RE STUPID because you still probably have the route 100). You then get off, transfer to LRT and ride a whole 3 stops to the University. I would suggest to run BRT to the University... Then down Whyte Ave or something. That would work a whole lot better if you ran down University Ave/ 87 Ave with a new bridge across the river, than to South Campus. Like the LRT is planned. But NIMBY's, money have all but killed the most logical routing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edmontonguy Posted September 16, 2006 Report Share Posted September 16, 2006 Short from running a freeway through the campus the University no matter how you cut it is always going to be a pain to get to. Removing traffic and displacing it is only going to cause jams somewhere else. While building the new LRT line they should have also removed all pedestrian and vehicular crossings of 114th st to ease traffic conjestion down that particular stretch, the light timing is currently what is doing the most damage to traffic flow at peak times, for example, running 76th ave under the lrt line right next to the pedestrian underpass. With the U-pass theoretically only a short undetermined time away, hopefully within a year or two, getting to the university is going to become even harder on transit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modulator Posted September 16, 2006 Report Share Posted September 16, 2006 Short from running a freeway through the campus the University no matter how you cut it is always going to be a pain to get to. Or building LRT right away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted September 16, 2006 Report Share Posted September 16, 2006 My couple things to add.... All the 6 Hybrids (2 orion's 4 new flyers) that we have bought this year will have Air Conditioning. Aparently that is the way they will come along with the brt. This is from a spokesman from ETS who i will leave their name out. however he said it has become part of the industry standard now. My big beef with the BRT that i just cant get out of my head. All this money to spend to give a 3-5 minute lead way. one section area will cost $21 million!!! $21 MILLION DOLLARS FOR 3-5 minutes faster????? id rather spend that money towards new trolleys or work on the LRT. hell im not worried about a trip taking me 3-5 minutes longer. now if it was 10-15 i might be a little more understandable. This one just really bugs me as a taxpayer... i dont want to see the money not go towards transit i just would rather see it made useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captaintrolley Posted September 16, 2006 Report Share Posted September 16, 2006 What bugs me is the unfair comparison. It's slanted right from the beginning. ETS BUYING six hybrids to test for six months or longer. And LEASING one trolley for a couple of weeks. If you want six buses then either BUY or LEASE (but not both) two Orion VIIs, two DE40LF's, and two E40LF's. And test them all for the same period of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Parsons Posted September 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2006 All the 6 Hybrids (2 orion's 4 new flyers) that we have bought this year will have Air Conditioning. Aparently that is the way they will come along with the brt. This is from a spokesman from ETS who i will leave their name out. however he said it has become part of the industry standard now. My big beef with the BRT that i just cant get out of my head. All this money to spend to give a 3-5 minute lead way. one section area will cost $21 million!!! $21 MILLION DOLLARS FOR 3-5 minutes faster????? id rather spend that money towards new trolleys or work on the LRT. hell im not worried about a trip taking me 3-5 minutes longer. now if it was 10-15 i might be a little more understandable. A/C is an industry standard? Heh, name 5 systems in Canada outside of Sothern Ontario who have purchased new buses regularly that have A/C. I guess most Canadian systems are are not part of this "standard"... But, what the hell, lets blow money on something we don't need. I don't know what the frequency will be. I'm sure ETS doesn't either. Lets assume 5 minutes. Probably about 60 minute round trip... 12 buses needed.... 25% spare ratio... 15 buses in total... Maybe even one or two more... Lets assume... $1 million per bus. Probably an artic hybrid with extra features. Regardless of whether or not they hybrid should be the bus of choice... That's $15 million. And then $6 million for some spiffy bus stops, TPM's, a few bus lanes. Maybe some costs for the new Lewis Estates terminal... It's actually not that bad of money use. That stuff will probably be a benefit to regular routes as well. Do I like it? Hell no. Could it get worse? Probably not. But, I think we seem to be getting decent value for our money. The other thing is... it's not just 3-5 minutes faster. Another thing to consider is the headways. Right now, headways aren't attractive to people in cars. They miss a bus, they might have a 15 minute or longer wait, especially look at the 4 right now with it inconsistency! Although 15 minutes isn't bad, 5 minutes is much, much better. They miss a BRT bus during peak hour... maybe 5 minutes to wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Board Admin A. Wong Posted September 17, 2006 Board Admin Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 The thing with bus systems in general is frequency. That's why I rarely ever take the 11 if I don't have to. I have to walk about 3 minutes to get to the bloody stop in the first place. Then if I am getting there and the bus passes the stop, now I have to wait 15-30 (usually 30) minutes for the next bus. So there I stand and wait for the whole length of time, it's pointless if I go back home. Although the bus should be on time, stuff happens and sometimes it's early. This is not anyone's fault. Now, if a bus came every 5 minutes, I would easily consider taking that bus on a regular basis. (Yes, I take blame for not getting to the bus stop a few minutes earlier) I know it's not possible to run a 5 minute frequency on every bus route, but services like BRT that have this good frequency will attract riders. Just like LRT has. LRT is still better because it has a much higher capacity than a bus (and unless they use trolleys, then it is much quieter too, except in tunnels ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edmontonguy Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 I'd be all for a terminal and parking facility at Lewis Estates. As it stands i often miss the 4 and face waiting 30 mins for a connecting bus or walking home which takes about 30 mins. By having a frequent headway it'd be extremely attractive for people in my neighbourhood to travel only 4 or 5 minutes by car to the terminal to take public transit then having a quick connection, only marginally slower than taking their car to downtown or the University. As well on the way home or in off peak hours having that frequency means that there'd be little wasted time for connections, one of the biggest turnoffs regarding public transit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Parsons Posted September 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 I'd be all for a terminal and parking facility at Lewis Estates. I believe the terminal is planned regardless of BRT or not. The parking is planned as well I think. Further, I believe there is at least 1 other terminal planned, and a 3rd platform at Stadium. However, that is just planned.... Of course there's a southeast Garage planned, and I've recently heard about a north east one as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captaintrolley Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 I believe the terminal is planned regardless of BRT or not. The parking is planned as well I think. Further, I believe there is at least 1 other terminal planned, and a 3rd platform at Stadium. However, that is just planned.... Of course there's a southeast Garage planned, and I've recently heard about a north east one as well... I thought it was a South West Garage at 156 Street and Ellerslie Road, or in that general vicinity. I could have heard wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Parsons Posted September 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 I thought it was a South West Garage at 156 Street and Ellerslie Road, or in that general vicinity. I could have heard wrong. Yes, south west... that's what I meant... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Board Admin A. Wong Posted September 17, 2006 Board Admin Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 The ETS guy I talked to said NO air-conditioning, so we have two different answers from ETS reps...Was it the same guy we encountered on the Seattle DE60LF? He was on the hybrids yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 Was it the same guy we encountered on the Seattle DE60LF? He was on the hybrids yesterday. interesting because both jason and tim said they would have air conditioning... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Parsons Posted September 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 From what I was told, the demo hybrids will have air conditioning However, the busses that will be ordered for the BRT will not have air conditioning I remember hearing something similar. In the case of the Orion VII's... AFAIK it's an add on to TTC's order... And TTC's have A/C. Maybe they're getting A/C on the Flyer's to make it fair. I was told they will be ETS's usual specs. ETS's "usual" specs is no A/C... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
general682002 Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 I remember hearing something similar. In the case of the Orion VII's... AFAIK it's an add on to TTC's order... And TTC's have A/C. Maybe they're getting A/C on the Flyer's to make it fair. I was told they will be ETS's usual specs. ETS's "usual" specs is no A/C... Demo buses will always have a/c. Don't know why Strathcona buys a/c for their LFS, hardly uses it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Parsons Posted September 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 Demo buses will always have a/c. Don't know why Strathcona buys a/c for their LFS, hardly uses it. It isn't too bad for Strathcona... They seem to do well in the chater business... I'm sure the LFS's could find themselves on local charter. They also probably already have experience, or a contract for A/C maintainence, thanks to the Prevost's in the fleet. ETS... has nothing. And doesn't need it. I'd be more concerned about the heaters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
general682002 Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 ETS... has nothing. And doesn't need it. I'd be more concerned about the heaters! Yeah, that part you'll need that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captaintrolley Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 I'd be more concerned about the heaters! YEAH, WE'RE GONNA NEED THE HEAT TONIGHT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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