Alternatives in the core

[Canucktunes]

Vancouver's city experts claim tunneling would likely cost 600 million while an Edmonton's transit expert claims it would be best to avoid tunneling because of the associated costs later on. The downtown business associations don't want LR on Albert and Slater so what other options could there be ?

[captaintrolley]

I like surface LRT, but I do like having it underground through the Downtown core.

[SmallTown]

I like surface LRT, but I do like having it underground through the Downtown core.

I'm trying to call up from memory an engineers report I read many years ago and I seem to recall reading that a subway tunnel through the core was not feasible due to sub surface conditions. The terms I recall were fractured limestone and leda clay. Both very unstable and very expensive to stabilize to allow construction.

[RYANBRT]

I am not sure, but wasn't the original tunnel pegged at $700 million in the late 70/early 80's?

That was a lot then. This tunnel might cost a lot more. Personally I am all for surface LRT. All buses(save for the 95,96,97, and other major routes) need to be taken off the downtown streets. The biggest problem with Ottawa is the excessive number of express buses during rush hours. You have to see it. It's nuts.

Personally, the downtown segment of the Transitway needs to be greatly improved. But I think the city council is going to have a huge problem getting a tunnel built.

[Canucktunes]

I'm trying to call up from memory an engineers report I read many years ago and I seem to recall reading that a subway tunnel through the core was not feasible due to sub surface conditions. The terms I recall were fractured limestone and leda clay. Both very unstable and very expensive to stabilize to allow construction.

The people who worked on the tunneling under the Parliament Buildings said it would be fine in today's citizen. One of the major engineers in the project stated that the core was composed of limestone, shale and an area of mixed shale and limestone. And that it was "favourable for tunnelling". He also claimed the canal "would pose no great problems".

[Canucktunes]

I am not sure, but wasn't the original tunnel pegged at $700 million in the late 70/early 80's?

They want to have two small tunnels instead of one big one, so they can use the smaller tunnel boring machines , enabling them to work on several tunnels at once.

Personally I am all for surface LRT. All buses(save for the 95,96,97, and other major routes) need to be taken off the downtown streets. The biggest problem with Ottawa is the excessive number of express buses during rush hours. You have to see it. It's nuts.

Surface LRT cannot circumvent problems in front of them like busses can. All of the following would cause significant problems :

• Stalled vehicles
• Accidents in intersections
• Careless drivers who change lanes without signalling or run lights
• Careless pedestrians and bicyclists
• Couriers and delivery vehicles that park in bus/LRT only lane

I've been on buses in the core that were delayed by all of the above problems, none of which would be major problems underground. Or perhaps in a monorail type system...

[RYANBRT]

How many times will a vehicle block the tracks? It is not going to be a daily occurence. Of course it MIGHT happen. But it is not going to happen so much, that people are going to be annoyed.

Accidents in intersections are going to affect traffic regardless of LRT, or BRT.

I do not know if you drive, but careless drivers are EVERYWHERE. They affect other drivers. Not just LRT. You cannot escape the occasional retard behind the wheel.

The chances of a cyclist, or pedestrian being hit by a LRV is low, compared to being hit by a car.

In Ottawa, I have yet to see delivery vehicles, or couriers that park in the Bus lanes during peak hours. Late night, I have, but Albert, and Slater Streets are so dead at night, it does not really make a difference.

[ikarus8737]

How many times will a vehicle block the tracks? It is not going to be a daily occurence. Of course it MIGHT happen. But it is not going to happen so much, that people are going to be annoyed.

Accidents in intersections are going to affect traffic regardless of LRT, or BRT.

I do not know if you drive, but careless drivers are EVERYWHERE. They affect other drivers. Not just LRT. You cannot escape the occasional retard behind the wheel.

The chances of a cyclist, or pedestrian being hit by a LRV is low, compared to being hit by a car.

In Ottawa, I have yet to see delivery vehicles, or couriers that park in the Bus lanes during peak hours. Late night, I have, but Albert, and Slater Streets are so dead at night, it does not really make a difference.

Ottawa has frequent incidents of gridlocked intersections on the streets bisecting Albert and Slater. The intersection of Waller and the Transitway westbound is a big problem during the afternoon rush hour which would cause problems even if the traffic on the transitway was limited to trains. Traffic turning right, deliveries, taxi's, hotel pick up zones, pedestrians and parking cause major problems on Albert and Slater, all of which would at some point cause trains to pile up on each other in one direction or another. It was insane to think that the train would work in addition to the buses in those corridors, in the same lane, no less.

If a tunnel can't be built, a surface network could work if all traffic (turns, parking, deliveries) were removed from the right side of Albert/Slater, plans put in place to prevent gridlocked intersections during high traffic events in the core (maybe police directing traffic at major trouble spots) and the Waller/Transitway/Nicholas/MacKenzie King Bridge intersection redesigned to prevent backups delaying transit. The line through the core (whether it's in a tunnel or not) should be tied to the East/West line not the North/South and needs to reach at least Hurdman station in the east to be viable.

[RYANBRT]

Proper signal priority, and heavy enforcement could help.

By your thinking, the bus lanes on Albert, and Slater should have failed years ago, yet they are respected. Why would people suddenly stop if tracks are added? Makes no sense. Outside rush hour, it is a different story. But during rush hour, the rules are respected.

[ikarus8737]

Proper signal priority, and heavy enforcement could help.

By your thinking, the bus lanes on Albert, and Slater should have failed years ago, yet they are respected. Why would people suddenly stop if tracks are added? Makes no sense. Outside rush hour, it is a different story. But during rush hour, the rules are respected.

The rules are moderately respected at best and not necessarily more so during rush hour. The bus lanes are delayed everyday by people who don't respect the rules and there is very little enforcement.

What I'm talking about, though, are the frequent heavy traffic occurences (brought on by weather, protests, construction, closures in other parts of downtown etc.) that occur maybe 40 days per year during the rush hours. These events will cause disruptions for the trains. This will happen far more frequently with horrible results if the trains are mixed with buses in the core.

[M. Wright]

The rules are moderately respected at best and not necessarily more so during rush hour. The bus lanes are delayed everyday by people who don't respect the rules and there is very little enforcement.

What I'm talking about, though, are the frequent heavy traffic occurences (brought on by weather, protests, construction, closures in other parts of downtown etc.) that occur maybe 40 days per year during the rush hours. These events will cause disruptions for the trains. This will happen far more frequently with horrible results if the trains are mixed with buses in the core.

If you have Traffic Giant and have a major bus road (like albert and slater) than you add just ONE streetcar line, it disrupts the flow of everything, including cars. Trust me, I did that and it was a big mistake. I ended up having to replace the Streetcar line with buses inorder to relieve traffic.

[RYANBRT]

Right.

Because Traffic Giant is much better than experienced engineers!

The downtown core has too many buses as it is. This is why OC Transpo has moved some routes out to Hurdman, and Lebreton in recent years.

THe number of buses in the downtown MUST be reduced, no matter if rail is installed or not. I looekd at some figures for the bus lanes. 180buses/hr!! Nuts!

OC Transpo is not stupid, they know those lanes are very close to capacity. In my opinion, only the major trunk routes should be allowed to enter the downtown core. The express buses need to be moved to stations closest to areas they serve. The downside, is that it adds a transfer to passengers.

Events, protests already cause disruption on the central transitway. Buses are affeced too by these disruptions.

Your conclusion about the EW/NS line does not make sense. If the EW line is going to cut through the downtown, core anyways, what is the big deal about the NS line going to the downtown core? Same tracks.

The bottom line is, buses are no longer a viable solution. Ottawa is reaching the point where buses are not going to be reliable. There is going to be a point where the number of buses, in the core are going to cause major traffic problems. With, or without rail.

[Canucktunes]

Proper signal priority, and heavy enforcement could help.

By your thinking, the bus lanes on Albert, and Slater should have failed years ago, yet they are respected. Why would people suddenly stop if tracks are added? Makes no sense. Outside rush hour, it is a different story. But during rush hour, the rules are respected.

Busses aren't stuck on tracks, so they can drive around most of the problems they do face each day.

More cars are being driven into the core and the replacement of a few busses with large LR vehicles in the core's streets will only worsen the situation in the long run.

With an underground system, more express busses could be diverted to stations outside the core. Lebreton, for example, could be the transfer point for most of the express routes from the western portion of the city, while Ottawa U or the most eastern station, could be the transfer point for express routes originating from the eastern portion of the city.

[M. Wright]

Busses aren't stuck on tracks, so they can drive around most of the problems they do face each day.

More cars are being driven into the core and the replacement of a few busses with large LR vehicles in the core's streets will only worsen the situation in the long run.

With an underground system, more express busses could be diverted to stations outside the core. Lebreton, for example, could be the transfer point for most of the express routes from the western portion of the city, while Ottawa U or the most eastern station, could be the transfer point for express routes originating from the eastern portion of the city.

You hit the hamer on the spot there.

I've seen buses go outside of their ROW because of idiot drivers many of times. But stuff keeps flowing. (This is backing up your statement there)

[ikarus8737]

Right.

Because Traffic Giant is much better than experienced engineers!

The downtown core has too many buses as it is. This is why OC Transpo has moved some routes out to Hurdman, and Lebreton in recent years.

THe number of buses in the downtown MUST be reduced, no matter if rail is installed or not. I looekd at some figures for the bus lanes. 180buses/hr!! Nuts!

OC Transpo is not stupid, they know those lanes are very close to capacity. In my opinion, only the major trunk routes should be allowed to enter the downtown core. The express buses need to be moved to stations closest to areas they serve. The downside, is that it adds a transfer to passengers.

Events, protests already cause disruption on the central transitway. Buses are affeced too by these disruptions.

Your conclusion about the EW/NS line does not make sense. If the EW line is going to cut through the downtown, core anyways, what is the big deal about the NS line going to the downtown core? Same tracks.

The bottom line is, buses are no longer a viable solution. Ottawa is reaching the point where buses are not going to be reliable. There is going to be a point where the number of buses, in the core are going to cause major traffic problems. With, or without rail.

That's right, that's what I and most other people are saying: ALL buses should be eliminated from Albert and Slater except for maybe one or two routes to serve as a locals. You were arguing fervently in favour of Chiarelli's disaster in waiting plan with buses and trains mixed in the core before. Good to see you've come, somewhat, to your senses.

The downtown core should be tied to and E/W system because the N/S line has a circuitous route to downtown. Very few people who use the current O-Train transfer to go downtown from Bayview, the majority are going west, the few people going downtown off the N/S line would have an easy transfer to an east-west train at Bayview. The proposed N/S line will not be heavily used outside of rush hour.

95's are busy 24/7 and the majority of the transit coming into the core is East-West therefore it makes much more sense to tie the busiest corridor (downtown) to the busiest feeders (east-west). The N/S line is a natural fit to continue across the Prince of Wales Bridge to Gatineau so it shouldn't be linked up to go into the core.

[RYANBRT]

See.. YOu people just do not get it. Buses DO get stuck in traffic. ALl the time. I sense bias in all your posts.

You are basing these scenarios on the assumption that OC Transpo, and the city is just going to sit around and let traffic get worse.

Even without LRV's in the downtown core. The core is going to get worse. Frick. Access to downtown from the Queensway is a pain as it is. This is likely why the core is so congested. Too many one way streets, and few points of access to the highway.

The bottom line is, that the number of vehicles in the core is going to have be reduced. The bus lanes are pretty much at capacity, and ridership is still growing.

This is the way I see it:

Limit the express routes to Hurdman, and Lebreton. Improve these stations to handle the extra buses. You can either build rail in the core, or not. Either way, the number of buses in the core MUST be reduced. That is the bottom line. Your claim of buses being able to divert is only in the worse case scenario, and how would they pikc passengers up?

With a tunnel, you pretty much solve the traffic problem. The buses, and LRV's are moved underground completely seperated from traffic. You do not need to limit buses to the outer stations. They can run unimpeded. There is no reason too, if they have their own ROW. But a tunnel is not going to happen anytime soon. So you have to look at solutions now.

And a viable solution is(was) reducing the number of buses in the core, and replacing most(not all) of those buses with LRV's. One single LRV has the capacity of roughly 2.5 articulated buses. And that is before you make a train. In ottawa, the blocks are long enough in that you could make a 3 car train, if possible. This is the trick. Maintain, or increase capacity, while reducing the number of vehicles in the core.

Buses can only carry so much, before you have to move to a higher capacity system.

*NOTE*

This was directed to M. Wright, and Canucktunes.

Not Ikarus. Ikarus understands.

That's right, that's what I and most other people are saying: ALL buses should be eliminated from Albert and Slater except for maybe one or two routes to serve as a locals. You were arguing fervently in favour of Chiarelli's disaster in waiting plan with buses and trains mixed in the core before. Good to see you've come, somewhat, to your senses.

The downtown core should be tied to and E/W system because the N/S line has a circuitous route to downtown. Very few people who use the current O-Train transfer to go downtown from Bayview, the majority are going west, the few people going downtown off the N/S line would have an easy transfer to an east-west train at Bayview. The proposed N/S line will not be heavily used outside of rush hour.

95's are busy 24/7 and the majority of the transit coming into the core is East-West therefore it makes much more sense to tie the busiest corridor (downtown) to the busiest feeders (east-west). The N/S line is a natural fit to continue across the Prince of Wales Bridge to Gatineau so it shouldn't be linked up to go into the core.

That's true.

But there are people from Barrhaven, who actually might use the line to go downtown to avoid the crush on the 95, and the extra express fare.

[ikarus8737]

But there are people from Barrhaven, who actually might use the line to go downtown to avoid the crush on the 95, and the extra express fare.

True

[OC 8208]

I am not sure, but wasn't the original tunnel pegged at $700 million in the late 70/early 80's?

That was a lot then. This tunnel might cost a lot more. Personally I am all for surface LRT. All buses(save for the 95,96,97, and other major routes) need to be taken off the downtown streets. The biggest problem with Ottawa is the excessive number of express buses during rush hours. You have to see it. It's nuts.

Personally, the downtown segment of the Transitway needs to be greatly improved. But I think the city council is going to have a huge problem getting a tunnel built.

and peter clark had wanted to build it in the 90's if he got elected mayor, we got a light rail(mayor) junkie instead. now we have the tunnel back on the table and i bet you its 2 to 3 times the cost that clark had quoted.

[Canucktunes]

See.. YOu people just do not get it. Buses DO get stuck in traffic. ALl the time. I sense bias in all your posts.

Bias ?

Anyhow, I doubt busses would go underground with the LRT. They're going for two small tunnels and I doubt they'd be wide enough to accomodate a passing lane.

In response to LRT from the east-west going on Albert/Slater - Why is this absolutely nessesary to force people thru the core ? Doing this with tunnels is accaptable but even then, why must we absolutely force people thru the core, adding time that could be avoided with a more direct route in the existing train corridor.

LRT are more flexible than subways. They aren't bound to one track. There could be two east-west routes - One that goes thru the core and one that goes straight across town via Greenboro.

[OC 8208]

You hit the hamer on the spot there.

I've seen buses go outside of their ROW because of idiot drivers many of times. But stuff keeps flowing. (This is backing up your statement there)

Speaking of buses going out of their rows i once was on a oc bus at elmvale years back must be 20 years ago now that a buse broke drown and the bus driver drover over that island in between the bus only area and the public road only to get stuck there... no word of a lie bus driver claimed he was stuck when the wheels on the left fell off the island on the other side. backed up elmvale for quite some time lol and its easy for a bus to avoid another broken down bus in the buslanes... but what happens if train run 5 breaks down and run 6 arrives?

[M. Wright]

lately i feel older than my 35 years thats what i get for working with 20 year olds... if only i had half their energy i could... rule the world/// ok maybe oc transpo lol ok maybe the ttc

Well atlest we would see our fishies get rebuilds and lifts (because of that 2012 thing) if you ran OC!

[OC 8208]

Well atlest we would see our fishies get rebuilds and lifts (because of that 2012 thing) if you ran OC!

i'd buy up all the fishies in north america even the old oc's whereever they may lie, have a fleet of 1200 fishies all rebuilt and with lifts, and i would paint them in fishie original paint not the horendous front red design blech... i am a traditionalist... though i did not like otc green.

[M. Parsons]

its easy for a bus to avoid another broken down bus in the buslanes... but what happens if train run 5 breaks down and run 6 arrives?

Apparenlty it's not a big deal that a train could break down, otherwise the following systems wouldn't make use of rail transit to help provide public transit:

Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, Toronto, Montreal, New York, New Jersey, Boston, Philidelphia, Baltimore, Cleveland, Buffalo, Huston, Dallas, Los Angeles, San Jose, San Diego, San Fransisco, Miami, Denver, Salt Lake City, Minneapolis, Pittsburg, Portland, Sacramento, Atlanta, Chicago, St. Louis, Washington DC.

Systems have means for dealing with incidents that arise. Electric vehicles seem to go further between breakdowns. It is a rare occurance to have a failure on Edmonton's LRT. Especially when you consider the amount of breakdowns the D40LF's seem to have! Further, to have that break down occur during the 30 hours a week (3 hours a peak hour, 2 peak hours a day, 5 weekdays a week) when the system is at it's busiest out about 140 hours a week that are operated in Edmonton.

[OC 8208]

M. Wright, thanks for another useless post.

Apparenlty it's not a big deal that a train could break down, otherwise the following systems wouldn't make use of rail transit to help provide public transit:

Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, Toronto, Montreal, New York, New Jersey, Boston, Philidelphia, Baltimore, Cleveland, Buffalo, Huston, Dallas, Los Angeles, San Jose, San Diego, San Fransisco, Miami, Denver, Salt Lake City, Minneapolis, Pittsburg, Portland, Sacramento, Atlanta, Chicago, St. Louis, Washington DC.

Systems have means for dealing with incidents that arise. Electric vehicles seem to go further between breakdowns. It is a rare occurance to have a failure on Edmonton's LRT. Especially when you consider the amount of breakdowns the D40LF's seem to have! Further, to have that break down occur during the 30 hours a week (3 hours a peak hour, 2 peak hours a day, 5 weekdays a week) when the system is at it's busiest out about 140 hours a week that are operated in Edmonton.

is your light rail hindered by sharing a lane with buses?

[M. Parsons]

is your light rail hindered by sharing a lane with buses?

Wasn't you example a train breaking down with another train pulling up behind?

However, if we must...

Off hand, Calgary and Pittsburg both share LRV's running in streets with buses in the same lanes.

A friend who is an operator with Calgary Transit hasn't report any problems... either when driving LRT, or bus on 7th Ave.

My own experience with 7th Ave is the same. No problems.