OPUS/Magnetic Card Discussion

[mtltransitguy]

If your card needs reloading you won't be able to get in anyways.

True enough--assuming the card presented to the inspector is the one that was actually used to go through the turnstile, and not a clone created by a hacker which the person being inspected has hidden on his or her person. (The use of such clones have already been well-documented elsewhere).

Scenario:

The hacker, approaching the turnstile/reader, uses his clone to get through and waits on the platform. As luck would have it, a transit inspector appears somewhere during the trip and the clone holder is asked to show his card.

The clone card holder, obviously not wanting to reveal it, instead presents to the inspector a legitimate, but unreloaded card which he has retained for just such an eventuality, but is now of course forced to play dumb, pretending that the real but unreloaded card somehow got him through the turnstile/reader.

A savvy inspector will realize something is suspicious and that the individual has probably used a clone to access the platform.

So...is it "strip-search" time?

Oh, what a wicked web we weave, when first we practice to deceive...

At least innocent riders shouldn't fall into that trap! If fare-evaders figure out how to do that, they should get caught!

[Tranzit]

At least innocent riders shouldn't fall into that trap! If fare-evaders figure out how to do that, they should get caught!

True enough.

If you care to dig through Google, you will stumble across the story of the guy in France who cracked the RFID Smart Card code, used his local transit for free, and then reported his findings to the authorities, thinking that he would be congratulated for coming forward and admitting his misdemeanors.

No such luck! Apparently they threw the book at him. No respite from the heartless. I think I would have been a little more lenient in his case, but that's just me.

Now, just imagine how many other hackers may be out there doing their thing and keeping their mouths shut.

[glaframb]

At least innocent riders shouldn't fall into that trap! If fare-evaders figure out how to do that, they should get caught!

True enough.

If you care to dig through Google, you will stumble across the story of the guy in France who cracked the RFID Smart Card code, used his local transit for free, and then reported his findings to the authorities, thinking that he would be congratulated for coming forward and admitting his misdemeanors.

No such luck! Apparently they threw the book at him. No respite from the heartless. I think I would have been a little more lenient in his case, but that's just me.

Now, just imagine how many other hackers may be out there doing their thing and keeping their mouths shut.

If he was so smart, he will first meet them and present himself as the CEO of a information security company and propose to test the security of the faring system. Because he has a strong believes that they system could be fraud easily. He wan't to makes sure that the system is more secure. If not thank you for your time and bye bye !

[Mystic]

If he was so smart, he will first meet them and present himself as the CEO of a information security company and propose to test the security of the faring system. Because he has a strong believes that they system could be fraud easily. He wan't to makes sure that the system is more secure. If not thank you for your time and bye bye !

Ever since I heard about the STM getting smart cards I kept thinking to myself, this is an old technology, and it has already been hacked into years ago, why would the STM be investing millions on such a system then? Sure they can have validators check every single passenger, but those people that aren't paying now, still won't pay with the new system, and now this opens up to a whole new hackers realm; a new challenge some might say. Atleast with cold hard cash and tickets for fare, there is no higher technology involved, you buy it, and you spend it...

We'll have to wait and see what emerges from all of this. I know that there is no air tight fare system unless they have a 1 to 1 ratio on inspectors to passengers to watch over each of their shoulders, but I would have loved if they could have invested in some sort of newer, but tested and solid, fare technology.

[Tranzit]

I agree, but presumably this is the best they can do for the moment. Naturally, there will always be those who want to beat the system, and "there is nothing new under the sun", as they say.

I can only assume the STM had made serious studies of other cities Smart Card systems before committing themselves. Apparently, Lyons had an even worse fare-evasion problem before upgrading to Smart Cards. Yes, time will indeed tell.

I suppose the very best way would be to make boarding public transit free and have taxpayers calculate it at the end of every year--just like Medicare.

Say...I'm glad I was the first to think of that!

[Mystic]

I agree, but presumably this is the best they can do for the moment. Naturally, there will always be those who want to beat the system, and "there is nothing new under the sun", as they say.

I can only assume the STM had made serious studies of other cities Smart Card systems before committing themselves. Apparently, Lyons had an even worse fare-evasion problem before upgrading to Smart Cards. Yes, time will indeed tell.

I suppose the very best way would be to make boarding public transit free and have taxpayers calculate it at the end of every year--just like Medicare.

Say...I'm glad I was the first to think of that!

It's true that it was considered once before that they allow everyone to ride the public transportation for free, and a newer, higher gas tax would cover the costs entirely. It would be nice though to not have to worry about transit fees, but the problem is that people that do not benefit from public transit will note appreciate this new imposed tax, and an election is always around the corner with our minority governments as of late...

[Tranzit]

Not to mention that the homeless would no doubt plague the system, driving away the general public.

[kellergraham]

There will be a whole new psychology regarding how Montrealers travel by bus and Metro once OPUS and the new "6-token" magnetic card system is in place.

For one thing, contrary to how it has been since 1966, everyone standing on a Metro platform or bus will now be considered "guilty" until proven otherwise, as plainclothes ticket inspectors (but carrying badges) will have the authority to question anyone at random to produce their card or ticket. I see some hassles ahead, as it will take some time for everyone to get used to this--like it or not.

We already have that type of system on the commuter trains in Montreal. I don't think Proof of Payment inspection is the same thing as "guilty until proven otherwise". If you have your card and pay for it you've got nothing to worry about. The average law-abiding person won't have a phony OPUS card with them. And if it does happen that they forget to reload it, they'll be stopped in their tracks before boarding the metro or bus. You guys will have it much easier than on the train where if you do legitimately forget it, your still subject to a fine because there's nothing preventing you from boarding or reminding you that you haven't topped up your card.

Frankly, I don't see the need for POP inspection on the bus and metro as everyone needs to "pay" before they enter.

Alex

[Tranzit]

Frankly, I don't see the need for POP inspection on the bus and metro as everyone needs to "pay" before they enter.

I agree. Too bad the transit authorities don't see it that way. Basically, all they will be doing is adding another intimidating factor to what ought to be a smoothly operating process.

In any event, the STM has only itself to blame for incorporating a Metro fare-payment and transfer system in 1966 which was clearly full of holes.

Another factor which makes me suspicious about the entire issue is how "reluctant" the STM originally proclaimed itself to be when asked to employ armed transit police (not to be confused with ticket inspectors) in the Metro following some incidents of violence. Then, suddenly the next thing we hear is that they were going ahead with it, thus calculatingly preparing us for the next, imminent phase, namely ticket inspectors.

And what ever happened to the Metro's Guardian Angels? Remember them? Despite one well-publicized incident involving a bad member, they never seemed to generate enough interest and vanished from the scene. Not sure how successful they've been in other cities in recent years.

[Tranzit]

Over the past several days I have noticed the Metro transfer machines are printing a 2-hour grace period and not the previous 90 minutes--all in line with the already existing ticket/transfer "combo-card" grace period, such cards which are currently only on sale in east end Green Line stations for the time being.

A visit to the busy, pre-rush hour H-Beaugrand yesterday was quite enlightening. There was a lady STM employee outside the changeur's glass booth helping passengers use their 6-ticket/transfer--which I then myself used in the Metro for the first time as well, already having used it on a bus a few weeks ago. I was unable to purchase the standard pink adult tickets since they didn't offer any. I only saw the orange tickets on the changeur's counter.

I see the STM has decided to put those old ticket boxes to good use again outside changeurs' glass booths, which is a good idea. Those boxes look indestructible. Whoever invented them was pretty, uh, well--Smart!

The staff in the nearby "Blue Box" were looking at a computer screen and handing out the two existing brochures explaining the OPUS Smart Card and the 6-ticket/transfer combo-card to anyone who requested them--although thus far only the large dark blue brochure is available in English.

As I expected, they confirmed that there is a cautionary heads-up regarding the use of the OPUS Smart Card on busses, whereby if it happens that you place your OPUS card on the bus card validator twice, it will therefore deduct two fares--something which cannot happen on the Metro validators where there is a 20-minute delay before that same card can be used again in that same Metro station in order to prevent card-sharing.

Obviously, since a passenger could need or want to change busses several times, such a 20-minute delay would make your OPUS card useless within that time period should you need, want, or have no choice but to change busses more often--such as after a breakdown, for example.

The current requirement that such potential fare disputes be resolved at specific, designated Metro stations only which may be far out of a passenger's way, is a ticking time-bomb waiting to go off.

Bottom line: pay attention to your card use and keep track of the remaining fares on them--information which is printed on the rear.

As an aside, I'll mention here that the westbound 185 bus service was non-existent at "H-Bo-Bo" yesterday, with dozens of 186-187-189 and their "cousins" 186X, etc. all over the place, which, of course, nobody needed. Why in the hell don't they coordinate busses to avoid overkill on some routes while others are so unreliable! Annoying to say the least! Isn't that what they're supposed to use their radios for?

[glaframb]

Yesterday, when i went back from Montréal, STM people were giving instruction to Laval Customer in order to use the new throw able magnetic card The new card which cost 2,75$ replaced the yellow metro ticket in Laval at 2,75$ and the light blue ticket at 2,75$ in Montréal. The throw able magnetic card act also act as a transfer that is valid for 2 hour after the time it had been first validated which is printed at the back of the card.

The throw able card is a one trip type only. The six ticket card will not be available before another 2 years cause they want all the old ticket gone before that time. Right now if you ask for a 6 tickets book at 12$, they will give you a purple tickets only valid in Montreal and Metro Longueuil-Université-de-Sherbrooke or 6 throw able magnetic card unit at 2,75$ each that are validated later when you need and use them.

[mtltransitguy]

Yesterday, when i went back from Montréal, STM people were giving instruction to Laval Customer in order to use the new throw able magnetic card The new card which cost 2,75$ replaced the yellow metro ticket in Laval at 2,75$ and the light blue ticket at 2,75$ in Montréal. The throw able magnetic card act also act as a transfer that is valid for 2 hour after the time it had been first validated which is printed at the back of the card.

The throw able card is a one trip type only. The six ticket card will not be available before another 2 years cause they want all the old ticket gone before that time. Right now if you ask for a 6 tickets book, they will give you a purple one only valid in montreal and Metro Longueuil-Université-de-Sherbrooke or 6 throw able magnetic card unit that are validated later when you need and use them.

How silly of me! I walked right through Monty yesterday, saw all of this commotion, and it didn't even hit me! I just brushed it off as normal, since I have seen the same thing many times in Montreal already.

So get this, before we had three types of regular fare tickets:

-6 Strip ones worth $2.00/each

-Single fare tickets worth $2.75 each (Only useful purposed is to pre-pay your return, since it is the same price as fare)

-MCC tickets for the Laval metro worth $2.75 each.

Now, since all regular tickets, including tourist passes, is going to be on the magnetic card, there is no need to differentiate the "normal" single fare $2.75 tickets from the MMC Laval ones at the same price, it would be pointless, they cost the same.

What are you talking about with the six ticket card not being available? I bought a pack already, if they don't sell the new tickets, they will have to sell the old ones, and that will only result in even more old ones in circulation. Unless you mean a six pack of single fare/MCC tickets, but still, selling old ones and not new ones only results in more old ones floating around in peoples pockets and purses. When the Bank of Canada issued the new bills, they stopped producing the old ones, if they would have continues printing old ones, and waiting until they were all gone before printing new ones, that makes little sense.

IMO, there should not be a premium for ticker users to pay to enter the metro in Laval. Im not saying accept CAMs just yet, but give us a break on the tickets at least. For someone that travels through everyday they would still have to pay more, Tram3, but at least for those that visit Laval infrequently it would help.

Could future posts and these please appear in the Smart Card thread, and could it also please be renamed to "OPUS/Magnetic Card" please.

[glaframb]

Done MtlTransitGuy,

Alex, can you remove this topic please !

[SMS]

Shucks, no more yellow tickets.

Since Alex is not a moderator, I guess I'll have to move it...

[glaframb]

Thank yous, SMS

[Tranzit]

I'm beginning to notice some passenger confusion and impatience when some of them either don't know how to insert their new ticket/transfer into the validator, or perhaps their tickets are misread or tapped out fare-wise, generating the expected grumbles from those who always seem to need to get somewhere "yesterday".

Anyway, the new validators are popping up in more and more stations--even beyond the original east end Green line ones. Only problem is, I have yet to see a working vending machine anywhere other than in those east end stations--Joliette to H-Beaugrand. The new validators seem to be working out okay so far.

For the uninitiated, there are three types of validators in use worldwide with which I am familiar, anyway: our type, which swallows the entire ticket and spits it out through a different slot; then there's the type in other cities which also gulp the ticket but spit it out from the same slot you stuck it in; and finally, there's my favourite type in which you insert your ticket in part way, and the validator verifies it and spits it out with a ding or bleep for "yay, you're valid", or "brzzap", hey, buddy, you ain't goin' no place! At least with that type, your ticket is always visible and doesn't get digested out of reach forever (Boo-hoo-hoo! Not fair!).

As far as the ticket design is concerned, who wants to bet the STM will later begin offering different, more arty designs just as with the CAM cards? Quite frankly, these blue and red ones are kinda boring, but they're probably just being trialed for the initial start-up period.

[kellergraham]

Anyway, the new validators are popping up in more and more stations--even beyond the original east end Green line ones. Only problem is, I have yet to see a working vending machine anywhere other than in those east end stations--Joliette to H-Beaugrand. The new validators seem to be working out okay so far.

The other stations aren't supposed to be working yet. The vending machines that should work now are:

(As of April 28th) Viau, Assomption, Cadillac, Langelier, Radisson, Beaugrand

(As of May 19th) Montmorency, de la Concorde, Cartier, Henri-Bourassa, Sauve, Cremazie, Jarry

And for the record, this is the rest of the roll-out:

June 9th: Outremont, Acadie, Parc, de Castelneau, Jean-Talon, Fabre, Iberville, Saint-Michel, Beaubien, Rosemont

June 30th: Pie-IX, Joliette, Prefontaine, Papineau, Beaudry, Berri, Laurier, Mont-Royal, Sherbrooke, Edouard-Montpetit, Universite de Montreal

July 21st: Frontenac, Saint-Laurent, Place des Arts, McGill, Peel, Guy Concordia, Atwater, Champ de Mars, Place d'Armes, Square-Victoria, Bonaventure, Jean-Drapeau, Longueuil

August 11th: Lionel Groulx, Charlevoix, LaSalle, de l'Eglise, Verdun, Joliette, Monk, Angrignon, Place St-Henri, Vendome, Villa-Maria, Snowdon

September 1st: Cote-Ste-Catherine, Plamondon, Namur, de la Savane, du College, Cote-Vertu.

Every station has working OPUS pass readers and new card readers like this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/kellergraham/2491462094/

I have yet to see any new equipment at train stations

[Tranzit]

Every station has working OPUS pass readers and new card readers...

That's very thoughtful of them, except we OPUS card-holders are, as of this moment, only able to load our cards at the aforementioned east-end Green Line Metro stations where the vending machines are plugged in, which means we have to go out of our way to do so if we don't live nearby.

I can only assume that STM employees have access to such vending machines in their work places.

They might have considered powering up machines at termini like Angrignon, Snowdon, and Longueuil.

Hello, Mr. Rotrand...do you read this forum?

[kellergraham]

That's very thoughtful of them, except we OPUS card-holders are, as of this moment, only able to load our cards at the aforementioned east-end Green Line Metro stations where the vending machines are plugged in, which means we have to go out of our way to do so if we don't live nearby.

In theory, OPUS card-holders should only be employees at this time. And transit nuts who don't mind traveling to Viau or Jarry to top up.

Alex

[Tranzit]

In theory, OPUS card-holders should only be employees at this time. And transit nuts who don't mind traveling to Viau or Jarry to top up.

Alex

Exactly, so it would be foolish for me to waste a ticket for that purpose--particularly since we can currently only load "6 jetons" (6 tokens! ) into the OPUS card until further notice. I would only go out there today if I could load a CAM's worth, monthly amount. Until then, I will use up my remaining "jetons" sparingly.

Clearly, the STM is being wisely cautious and ramping it up step by step in order to catch any potential technical issues--which I am sure are lurking right around the corner.

[Tranzit]

It is not yet clear to me how validators will "know" which transfers will be allowable; that is, which will be considered as "allez-retour", or otherwise ineligible for one reason or another.

I refer here, of course, to the new red, white, and blue combo ticket/transfers which will soon replace the original and soon-to-be-replaced arrangement.

It is a stretch to assume that every such eligible and ineligible combination will be programmed into the central computer.

I won't go into specifics here, as they are countless, but simply consider every instance where your transfer was denied by a driver--fairly or unfairly--and extrapolate it over to the new system. I say it's a stretch because its designer will have to have considered every single gray area--a daunting task indeed! Where one driver will currently allow you to board with the old transfer, presumably the validators will not be as flexible.

I still say that all of this can easily be resolved by making the 2-hour grace-period the ONLY criteria by which one can travel--no matter the direction, whether it be "allez-retour" or from a Metro station from which a passenger has disembarked. There are too many ifs, buts, and maybes.

I also say that it is not the STM's business if a passenger must travel in the opposite direction or transfer from Metro to Metro, as there may be a very good reason he or she has to do this--not to mention the fact that monthly CAM holders have never been restricted in this manner.

Indeed, it has already been mentioned in this forum that other cities are more flexible when it comes to "transfer rules".

I will close with the following scenario:

You have only one ticket remaining on your 6-ticket card. You have a 2-hour transfer grace-period with that ticket. You board a bus with the intent of utilizing that transfer, however the validator (presumably) searches through its massive computer bank and comes up with the response that your transfer is ineligible. What happens now? Can you justifiably argue with the driver, pointing out that this is undeniably your last ticket and still within the grace period? Can the driver allow you on board under such circumstances?

I'm sure we will all soon find out.

[2-8-2 Mike]

I picked up Opus cards for my family members who use RTL only passes at Terminus Longueuil yesterday. The cashier told me that for the month of June if we get on an RTL bus that hasn't been equipped yet the driver is supposed to let us on anyway (Tristan can you confirm?)... Also noticed that Opus-Loading machines are showing up at various Jean-Coutu locations on the south shore... The plastic is very sturdy, much thicker than a credit card and came in a clear vinyl protector. I can see one of these things lasting more than 4 years, but I think that is the life of the micro-battery in the chip.

Once june rolls around I'll be getting 2nd hand news about how well or not well they work (unfortunately the TRAM is not available yet to be loaded, so it won't be first hand)

Also just have to say that i love the play on words --- OPUS = Au Puce

Mike

[SMS]

I can confirm that if the bus does not have the OPUS reader, the driver must let them on notwithstanding!

[mtltransitguy]

It is not yet clear to me how validators will "know" which transfers will be allowable; that is, which will be considered as "allez-retour", or otherwise ineligible for one reason or another.

I refer here, of course, to the new red, white, and blue combo ticket/transfers which will soon replace the original and soon-to-be-replaced arrangement.

It is a stretch to assume that every such eligible and ineligible combination will be programmed into the central computer.

I won't go into specifics here, as they are countless, but simply consider every instance where your transfer was denied by a driver--fairly or unfairly--and extrapolate it over to the new system. I say it's a stretch because its designer will have to have considered every single gray area--a daunting task indeed! Where one driver will currently allow you to board with the old transfer, presumably the validators will not be as flexible.

I still say that all of this can easily be resolved by making the 2-hour grace-period the ONLY criteria by which one can travel--no matter the direction, whether it be "allez-retour" or from a Metro station from which a passenger has disembarked. There are too many ifs, buts, and maybes.

I also say that it is not the STM's business if a passenger must travel in the opposite direction or transfer from Metro to Metro, as there may be a very good reason he or she has to do this--not to mention the fact that monthly CAM holders have never been restricted in this manner.

Indeed, it has already been mentioned in this forum that other cities are more flexible when it comes to "transfer rules".

I will close with the following scenario:

You have only one ticket remaining on your 6-ticket card. You have a 2-hour transfer grace-period with that ticket. You board a bus with the intent of utilizing that transfer, however the validator (presumably) searches through its massive computer bank and comes up with the response that your transfer is ineligible. What happens now? Can you justifiably argue with the driver, pointing out that this is undeniably your last ticket and still within the grace period? Can the driver allow you on board under such circumstances?

I'm sure we will all soon find out.

Okay a few things.

Remember, the driver is removed from the equation, we cannot stress this enough, it has been repeated countless times.

If you want to get on, do it! You will be arguing with the inspector, not the driver.

Also, I'm not even sure if these boxes are hooked up to anything except themselves. I think I've said this already, but SURF has a simplified fare structure thanks to the Odysey box. Before they could have Reduced and Regular zoned fares, now just reduced and regular fare. The Odysey can only take up to 5 fares, so there is almost no point for them to have zoned fare.

And if it can't hook up to a remote server to access a "Transfer Database", then anything goes. The only thing it may be able to do is tell from "1" and "2", which is the direction you are travelling, so it might only be able to restrict you traveling backwards on the line you boarded.

The Metro turnstiles are more 'intelligent' and can tell if you have entered the metro or not with your transfer already.

The remaining 'tokens' are not in a database, but rather on the card itself, so the farebox just reads what is on the card, and not reads the card number, and finds the info somewhere else instead.

I still guess that they won't be able to restrict most transfers, and you may be able to utilize many creative transfer points and methods.

The RTL will be OPUS or Cash only, and you will be able to use the transfer anyway you want within the time period (ala OC), or so I've heard...

This I have said already: It will be fun to try our favorite "illegal" transfers out. Getting back into the metro indeed does not work, I have yet to try and "illegal" bus transfer.

When I do, and if I come across an invalid one, I will confuse the driver even more and flash my CAM at them, allowing me to board, and leaving wondering why I didn't do that in the first place.

[Tranzit]

Yes, of course, I too have held up a just-expired transfer yet the flexible driver usually graciously allows me to board whereas others have not, so the variables are enormous.

Certainly I can understand drivers looking forward to relinquishing their responsibility in checking transfers by letting the validator do the "dirty work".

Yet technical issues are occuring as we speak.

Indeed, today on the 69 eastbound, a lady's ticket/transfer was swallowed by the validator, and she stood by the driver for several blocks until the issue was resolved. The driver called on the radio and presumably was told to press the green and C button, yet, in the end, the lady's transfer remained in the "belly of the beast", and the driver handed her some kind of receipt and notification regarding his bus number, etc.

I thought of interjecting regarding what I myself had experienced regarding the necessary buttons to press, but decided to mind my own business.

Anyway, the lady and her husband seemed to take it all in stride. Nevertheless, this sort of incident can very easily turn into an ugly situation, depending, of course, on who the "victim" is, as I can see some "thug dude" loosing his cool and punching the driver, etc.