The Canadian Roadgeek

True. The savings on the metropass is going to be bigger though. And the saving could be said as ever-lasting, it's a part of monthly expense that TTC have to deal with every month. That goes the same for passes for other transit agencies, but none of the passes in other transit agencies are as "technologically advanced" as TTC that the cost of making them is high.

But the Greater Toronto Area is almost 50% of Ontario in terms of population.

I mean... Why should TTC be paying the money? It's a system for the entire Greater Toronto Area. The provincial government should fix this. If TTC is kept like now, and TTC is going to pay for the scanners, we would never get Presto Card to work for the GTA. 10 or even 20 years later, we would still be stuck with our metropass and tokens.

One more point from before. No making metropasses too. They have spent too much on trying to make new metropasses. See, the good thing about the Presto card is...you don't have to make a new one every month... I think this is one of the big mistakes. If you only put it on the busiest subway stations, not everyone is going to use Presto. Which means... a lot of the fare-by-distance plan cannot be used. Presto card will just be a failure and won't be circulating among the riders. If Accenture is going to install the card system, why not install it on every TTC buses as well? If the province bothers to spend the money on the system, then why not spend a little more on all buses on the TTC. I think to maintain integration among transit systems, the local transit agency should not be the one funding the Presto Card implementation. In the long run, the TTC would be no different than MT, BT, DRT, YRT. And it will save a lot by not making more tokens, metropasses, printing transfers (not that it costs much), maintaining the subway, etc etc. In my brackets, I noted that this won't be wise to do so, meaning the cash fare system should be kept.

There won't be paper transfers anymore. Riders would see using Presto Card is the best way to pay their fare. They don't have to pay an extra fare when transferring between buses, between bus and subway, or between subways and regional rail. All they need to do, is to tap the Presto Card on the sensor. That's it. No paper transfers. No tokens. Everything is electronic. Just Presto Cards or tickets (I would attempt to eliminate cash fare but that won't be wise for the first stage if this fare system was to be used). I know. That was a waste of money. Once you start, finish it off. I'm no longer objecting the subway line. The money is put into it, sites are chosen, work is done, everything is planned out. Why waste that? Finish it off, and figure out another way for other urgent matters (such as ways I suggested before).

Agreed. Originally when they announce they are building that subway, I was questioning... Why Vaughan? There's more urgent need elsewhere... like you said Sheppard East, or even subway extension into Mississauga. Vaughan would eventually need that subway, but I don't see it now. Oh well, they started constructions already. Too late to stop.

Keep in mind. TTC won't be operating the subway anymore. That would be a huge load off. So this would offset the lost money for the TTC. And also, no more making tokens... Another load off...

I actually have to go for lunch now. Will be back with my points after lunch. But before I go, who says we have to pay another fare to get onto a bus from the subway? If we could establish something like the Presto Card, where I think the fare should be calculated by distance travelled, your fare = distance you travelled, no matter how many agencies you are going through. You might as well take the GO from Bradford then transfer to YRT then transfer to TTC then transfer to my proposed Metrolinx, and still pay the fare according to the distance travelled. Say you travelled some odd 50 km distance. You'll pay the same fare as someone who travelled on the network from the west end of Toronto to the east end of Toronto. And this someone would be on the TTC the entire time. One agency, the same price as multiple agencies given the same distance.

Without getting too off topic... I heard the hybrids do nothing in terms of emission... It's certainly nice to have them, but their eco-friendliness is highly doubted...

Well... See, that's the problem with almost every transit agencies in Canada (or at least the Greater Toronto Area). I think we should separate subway and buses and let these two forms of transportation be operated by different agencies. We should have a rapid transit network that is operated, say, by Metrolinx, and the bus network operating as how they are right now.

With the economic condition outside right now, I'm sure many many people are applying. TTC drivers are not realizing how lucky they are. Employees out there are getting their wages deducted. And by the way, I said $22 / hour not $20 / hour.

For the GTA, the average is around $38,000 like I said in previous posts. This is still much lower (at least $20,000 lower) than the TTC operators wage. Even a lecturer in university is not paid that much, and they spent their entire life studying (and I mean that in the nicest way, no offense intended). Paris has a population 11,769,433 in its metro area spanning over an area of 14,518 squared kilometer. This gives an average population density be 810.66 person / squared km. In the GTA, we have a populaton of 5,555,912 spanning over an area of about 7,125 squared kilometer. This gives an average population density be 779.78 person / squared km. That's not much of a difference, right? Especially now with more condos in Downtown and elsewhere in the GTA, I believe we have a higher population density now.

Just the TTC drivers. I know... many people are living in Ontario on a wage between $25,000 - $30,000, and they live fine, nice lifestyle and everything without being too wasteful. Keep in mind TTC drivers have double of that, so the -$14,000 impact on an average family would be half of the impact on the TTC drivers in terms of their lifestyle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Château_de_Vi...s_(Paris_Métro) VS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:YorkdaleTTC.JPG Look at the Chateau de Vincennes station in Paris, built in 1934, but it looks no different (in a general scheme of things, platform-wise, etc etc, not the station layout, and except the Paris version is lit by lights and we're lit by sublight) than the Yorkdale station we have built in 1978. (I think the TTC trains look better ) Look at Cour St-Emilion Station in Paris built in 1998 vs Don Mills station in 2002. Don't we think we're behind in design, let alone the network itself? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Metro_de...-Emilion_01.jpg VS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TTC_DonMills_01.JPG Considering how complicated and extensive the subway / rapid transit network is in Paris for a population of 10,000,000. We should have a comparative model for a population of 7,000,000. Not some 3 lines of subway can make it.

You see... That's the problem with government-operated agencies... Remember, the first thing I suggested was not to cut wages for drivers... The first thing I suggested was privatizing TTC... which apparently none of you liked.

Well then adjust to it. There's no such thing as "impossible" for living for less. It's not like earning $14,000 a year instead of $59,425.60 a year. Not try to get into an eco-talk here, start not being wasteful. Don't buy unnecessary things that will pollute our earth. Stop driving. Support your own transit system. Take the bus. (as a side "joke", feel the pain of a relatively poor rapid transit system) Besides, there is technically nothing else that the driver can spend on other than food and clothes. Do you think we really should be paying them this much? I mean, I am appreciative. If we can find an alternative way to make a great rapid transit system to happen, then go ahead with the alternative way and keep the drivers' current wage. The only thing I can think of is fare-by-distance-travelled or privatizing TTC (which many of you don't like). Keep in mind, $45,760.00 is still a lot better than most Canadians. The Canadian average wage in 2009 was $38272.42 / year after tax. It was $35141.18 / year in 2008. It was a bit more than $32,000 / year in 2005. All these years, TTC drivers are always paid well over average. They are not treated poorly. By reducing their wage, they are still well above the average line, but yet it can save so much for TTC. $14,000 a year for one driver saved. There are over 11,000 staff across the system. Let's round down for easier calculation. $14,000 * 10,000 = $140,000,000 140 million! If we had started saving early, we would have built ourself an extended Y-U-S line and possibly some of the LRTs (not that I like LRTs) by now... From this, without getting into complicated math factoring in previous salaries, we would have saved $1.23 billion since 2002, a price tag more than the cost of the existing Sheppard Line.

I'm sorry to say... I totally get what you mean... I know... who in the world wants to have their salaries shrink?? No one wants to see salaries reductions... In a way, the public, and not just me, sometimes think the transit operators are selfish... Sure, we are very (if not extremely) appreciative, don't get me wrong here... but the drivers are asking for too much that it's hurting the financial health of the organization... By reducing the salaries a bit, like $22 / hour (and that is not far from the current salaries of about $28.57 / hour according to the TTC website for a driver with 24 months experience), that's not much difference from the current salary) , that's enough and sufficient to keep for the daily lives of the operators and their families. Assume the operator is a male (not to be sexist here, but male workers tend to have a higher salary even in 2009), the salary of $28.57 / hour is way higher than the male average of $23.84 / hour. Operators must realize that, public transit is EXTREMELY (and I can't emphasize that enough) to maintain the integrity of any city, especially those with such high population as ~6 million like the GTA. Operators, look beyond yourself. There are people out there in the GTA who are working in much more dangerous professions, and are getting paid way less than you. I can feel this "unfairness" because I know someone who works in such profession (or in a better wording, occupation), and they are paid way less, like $16 / hour. How dangerous can bus operators face? Sure, there's at least one TTC worker assault per day (I read the posters on the bus), but how often do you hear a worker die or suffer from major injuries? I agree that the operators working during nighttime should be paid higher (due to higher risks and everything), as they are already... but do we really need such high salaries for daytime? True, assaults can happen in daytime as well, but during daytime, there are usually more passengers on the bus, so there are usually less assaults happening during daytime. Besides, the TTC already did what it can do for the operators to prevent assaults. Think about a truck driver. Much worse working conditions. Working day and night on the road. Hundreds and Hundreds of kilometers everyday. All kinds of weather conditions. There are crashes and deaths of a truck driver everyday. They are paid in 2009 with an average wage of $19 / hour. They have to leave their families very often, and... I mean it's just harsh. What do they get? $19 / hour, and often they don't have much benefits. $19 / hour! Think about it. Just because TTC workers have an union, so the union has a "right" to request a raise. The salary for a transit operator is way too high, I can't emphasize that enough. Many transit operators across the world are paid much less than TTC workers are getting paid. I know, Canada is a great country, where we are paid so much higher and we have a much better living condition. Let's compare it to Hong Kong (you must say, Hong Kong again). Hong Kong is really a good place to compare with... Hong Kong KMB buses are paid around $12,000 HKD monthly in 2007 - 2008. If I do my math right, that's about $1,700 CAD a month. Assuming the same working hours, these drivers are paid $10.71 CAD / hour, that's about the minimum wage in Ontario. It's true that the labour law in Hong Kong is not as great as in Canada. Think about their working conditions. They have to drive a double decker bus, which is, of course, more difficult than driving a single deck bus in Toronto. Secondly, think about how much passengers they carry per bus. I still remember, back in 2003, when I still live in Hong Kong, during rush hours, buses are packed. The capacity of these buses are about 200 passengers. A TTC streetcar? 65 passengers. If not, we can squeeze more in during rush hours. Say on the Queen Line, max. 100 passengers, and that might be overboard. Third, TTC operators get to take coffee breaks during their job. On Route 25, I've seen many drivers stopping, leaving the bus, technically unattended, and people are getting on without paying the fare, while the driver goes in Tim Horton's to grab a donut and a cup of coffee. The TTC operators should cherish and appreciate what they already have, and not ask for more. Remember, a Haiti public transit operator only gets a few bucks per day. But then again, we have to factor in the cost of living. TTC operators should realize how lucky and fortunate they are. I would want to be a TTC driver. Given all the benefits, what do you really need to pay to sustain life? Food. Clothing. That's about it. Healthcare and medicine, etc. is included... There are many more things I want to say, but I'll stop here, in case the transit operators starting a petition to ban me out of this forum (like general682002 said, someone would go after me if I suggest this as a politician, let alone a commenter on a forum.) The cost of living? Sure, Toronto has a higher cost of living, but believe me, not much higher than in Hong Kong. Hong Kong's cost of living is really high. You know why Toronto has a high cost of living? Most of this cost comes from driving. Getting back to my point about how TTC drivers should not just think for themselves. Most GTAers, especially those in the 905 and in the outer areas of 416 region refrain from using public transit. They rather spend more on insurance, gas, vehicle maintenance than getting on public transit. We really need to save more money to expand our rapid transit network. Just looking at our system map, I could not tell T.O. is a city with 2.5 million population, and the GTA with 7 million. The map looks like we are serving a population more like 750,000 to 1.5 million. We should learn from Europe. Our subway looks really bad (I know the New York Subway looks even worse). We can't afford anything. No platform screen doors, no subway expansions, slow implementation of the Presto Card. Oh, but we can afford more wages, more benefits. If I were a tourist from Europe and Hong Kong (like I was in 2000), I would think I went through a time tunnel and went back to the 1975. Just because the system worked in 1975 doesn't mean we have to keep it this way. Take the initiative, and renew things, like the stations (I know there are new fleets purchased every year, and I'm grateful for that) if we are not going to expand our system. This will at least attract more riders. I really appreciate the YRT for making the initiative by "beautifying" things a little. New fonts, sleek renewal of the looks of the fleet, changing their logo so it looks more modern, and not some transit logo from the 80s. Best of all, the VIVAsmart displays is the best initiative, one of the firsts in the Greater Toronto Area. Don't get me wrong, YRT \ Viva, MT, all other public transit agencies have its own problems as well. Not going to go into that here. That's a topic for another day. Well, the TTCs. Always red, always look like that outside and inside, the font is always Futura (Futura, to me, is like a font in the 90s), logo looks like it's from the 1960s. Can't get into that much either, that'll take me longer (I can go on and on and on. It took me 30 minutes [not intended as a pun for "Waiting for 30 minutes"] to type this up, never took me this long to post a comment) I'm going to pause here upon this point. I don't want to get screamed at thousands of others. I'm not sure what you mean how GO Transit drivers carry a fraction of people but their salary is the same as the TTC drivers. If you meant the bus, I completely get what you mean. If you meant the trains, well, the trains carry, I'd say more or less the same amount of people, if not more, than the subway lines do during rush hours. I really see fare zones the ultimate solution out apart from reducing the drivers' salary. I'm not sure how you relate fare zones to drivers assault, I really don't. There's seemingly no connection between the two. Fare zones won't work in T.O. right now given our fare policy. We have tickets and cash fare. If only we have PRESTO, PRESTO can calculate the amount of distance travelled when the customer uses the card upon entry and exit. There, the customer can be charged accordingly. I think it is extremely unfair to both the customers and the TTC for charging a single fare $3.00 (a side note, I completely and strongly support the fare raising which took place last week) to travel any distance. For instance, a commuter is charged $3.00 from Kipling Station to Sewells / Steeles (B-D Line then Y-U-S Line then 53F) compared to a commuter who travelled from say Pape Station to Yonge-Bloor Station, who paid the same price. Even in an extreme case, travelling say on 85, from Yonge-Sheppard Station to Williowdale Av., a ~1 km distance. Still charged $3.00. You, as a public transit operator, may not want to stand in the customers' perspective. BUT, standing in TTC's point of view. The operating cost for the first customer is more. Shouldn't we charge more for this customer? It's only fair to TTC. There are many riders of the TTC system daily, who should pay the TTC more, but did not do so because of our fare policy. Asking where our deficit came from? Here's one source. It's impractical to enforce because we do not want to change our old ways. Oh, we think that something that worked in the 70s will work in the 2010s. Not true. We've (at least the rest of the world) found better ways using technology. PRESTO card is not expected to be completely implemented until mid-2010s. Until it gets popular, it will not be until 2020. Well, this technology was from mid-1990s. We are at least 15 YEARS BEHIND THE REST OF THE WORLD. Should we let this continue by benefiting a few thousand drivers with high salary, or should we benefit 7 MILLION PEOPLE by doing this the proper way? Public transit will be the only thing that will save the city. With gas prices continue to go up, the cost of living is going to rise, and the demand on public transit will continue to increase. Just an over-exaggerated statement, should we, as global citizens, contribute more to global warming and climate change by "Let's give more salary to the TTC workers!!", or should we save the planet by saving up and encourage more people to use public transit. Sometimes I feel disgusted by the system we have right now. It made me feel shameful of Toronto. Other Canadian cities, despite with fewer population, does not have such a system (sure, the drivers might be paid well, but they managed to maintain an excellent system). It was certainly a downgrade, in terms of public transit, quality of living when I moved from Hong Kong to Toronto (sure, we can't compare directly between the two due to population density, but yet again, even Montreal has a system more extensive than we have). I didn't mean to sound blunt, rude, or disrespect. I have to emphasize, I AM EXTREMELY APPRECIATIVE of the transit operators. I just think the TTC should be made better, and not be joked around by GTAers on Facebook as "T.T.C. = Take the Car". Here's my solution. If you don't like it, then I'll apologize in advance (even though I don't think I'm wrong in any way). ** EDIT: This took me 45 minutes to write. This outdated TTC system needs to be fixed. It's urgent. ** Have fun counter-argue my comment. As I am sure, numerous people on this forum always believe what I am saying is wrong and/or misleading. Sigh but true

How about saving money from reducing operating cost? From that, I mean the salaries of the operators... Come on, almost $30 / hour?? That's way too high... on top of that lots more other "benefits", etc etc... That's better than working in an office... If we reduce the salary... true... those operators are going to get mad... not to be rude, but they can go ahead and quit their job... The TTC operators have a strike like almost every year, and every year they get a raise... This would be in an endless cycle of raising their salary, and that's why we have no money... That goes the same for city councillors and municipal employees. There are lots more people out there who are wishing to operate public transit vehicles. Even reducing the salary of these operators to as low as $20 / hour, and slightly raising the fare (and perhaps introduce fare zones or fare-by-distance-travelled), the TTC can save a lot of money. We can use this to refine our system...

Like I said, privatizing TTC is the only way out and the only way to allow Toronto to construct more subways throughout the city. Considering the Greater Toronto Area is home to close to 6 million today, the infrastructure is outdated in Toronto, and certainly not enough. We've got to put our eyesights farther. Sure, LRTs are going to solve the problem in 2010, but when they are completed by like the 2020s, the LRTs are going to be useless to solve the problem.... By 2025, the GTA will be home to 7.5 to even 8 million people... The population is going to grow in the GTA, and the demand from the GTAers are not going to be satisfied by some LRT lines in the city. I understand the concern that Waiting for 30 minutes have... I think that's the risk Torontonians will have to undertake... Maybe there should be a legislation that the city should make... I mean like, the city should be the one who is in charge of the fare policy and approving certain routes... The city should have veto power in the fare policy for these private companies.... Like I said from before, I think the TTC system is way too large to sustain itself. The system serves over 700 squared km, and with buses, streetcars, subways... If we don't privatize TTC, TTC will continue to be in debt.

How about if TTC privatizes? Better yet, I think the system is too large... a bus, streetcar / LRT, subway network serving an area about 700 squared km (Toronto and surrounding areas). This is really inefficient for such a big network... Should splitting be a solution so better public transportation options can happen?

I think the subway network should be vastly expanded in Toronto. The reason of low ridership on many routes and public transit agencies is just simply due to inconvenience. The connection time, the waiting time, etc etc are discouraging people from riding on transit... We should increase more options for the public, more subway lines (not trying to solve this problem with LRTs 'cause that would never be as efficient as a great subway system...) I know... the replies I'm going to get is going to be cost-related, or people always find me dreaming, but I think this should be how a metropolitan area with close to 7 million people should work. If Toronto is not planning to expand on its expressway and road systems, then it has to put in much much more work into its transportation system.

Oh. I see... The last time I've been to that area was like a year ago I hope the new YRT \ VIVA system map that they said they'll release this spring with the large font and land use data won't be too ugly... I'm kinda excited for it! (I know... there's a sneak peak in the MyTransit newsletter)

Talking about the service change in the Winter 2010 YRT \ Viva system map, has anyone noticed about the re-alignment (or re-routing, whichever word is more appropriate) for Viva Orange? It's showing Viva Orange to be re-routed on a road just north of Finch. I double checked the map and see there're no "passable roads" north of Finch... Was it a mistake on the map? Did they mean Orange is going to be on Finch? Wow. They finally figured out how dumb (no offense) to put both routes together, on the same road, for like 2-ish km. What's more dumb is that I've seen a 41 and a 45 going one after another... There's not THAT MUCH DEMAND on Raymerville Dr. South Section!!

Sorry to interrupt the ongoing discussions... I was wondering, how is the ridership for Viva vehicles counted? Since Viva uses the proof-of-payment system, the passengers don't have to present their tickets to the drivers, so the drivers can't press that button to calculate the ridership... (you know that thing that goes "beep" when you pay your fare on a YRT vehicle... If they only calculate the ridership based on how many people purchased or validated a ticket in the Vivastation... wouldn't the result be inaccurate? or do they have another way of doing this that I'm not aware of? BTW - According to your experience, what's the minimum daily ridership requirement for YRT to consider making a rush hour route into a full time route?

It was funny that the so-called improvement didn't do anything at all... 6 minutes frequency today and the bus is more crowded than usual...

I was taking the 25 Don Mills bus today and I saw the service improvement sign... I just want to ask... what IS the difference between a frequency of 4 minutes and 3 minutes 36 seconds? I find this really pointless... Personally, I think the TTC are just trying to make something up? 4 minutes to 3 minutes 36 seconds? That's barely 24 seconds... Why does that even matter? (Well maybe it does matter for the people at the terminus... i.e. Pape Station and Steeles (or 16th Avenue)). But a 24 seconds is nothing... First of all, the 25 Don Mills bus is not always on time anyways... sometimes up to 5 minutes late on a "normal-weather", "normal-traffic" day.... \ On a second thought, a 24-second difference may be changed with simply a traffic light signal. Besides, there are difference between people's watches... To me, round it to the nearest minute is the best option to go with...