northwesterner

Spotted two Prince Albert Northern Prevosts on Highland Avenue in Hollywood, California this morning.

Color me surprised...

23 hours ago, Mountie said:

Yes they are shiny, aluminum Alcoa wheels with the mirror finish I believe.

I was pretty confused by the reference to "hubcaps" earlier in the thread. You can get hubcabs for bus wheels, but they are very rarely seen in a transit application (and make walk around inspections very difficult). 

Now I see we are talking about the rims themselves. 

I haven't paid attention to rim differences the last few times I've been in Vancouver... a quick perusal of photos online shows that both CMBC and WVT have Alcoa rims on their Xcelsiors. 

Do we think that the two agencies are ordering a different polish on their rims (the aforementioned mirror finish), or could it be that WVT may be keeping up with the maintenance of the rims a little better than CMBC (which is what I'd guess). 

In one of the many cobwebs of my brain, I recall a couple of motorcoaches at the charter company I once managed came into our yard second hand with Alcoa rims. They looked awful, dirty and dull. I asked the shop if we should just swap them for steeles, which we kept painted. They said - no ... when the tires need to be changed on this bus they'll take them off, then send that set of Alcoas out to be polished, and then reinstall them (or use the set on a different bus). 

Presumably that is why Alcoas at most company, public or private/charter, look dull. You need to keep a couple of extra full sets of Alcoas around to swap onto your coaches so that they can be polished every few years. That's an extra level of attention to detail that goes beyond what needs to be done to get the coach out of the shop and back on the road.

9 hours ago, WillieTL said:

It is possible NFI will have another bus model in production by then and discontinue production on all xcelsior models.

Obviously that's possible... but considering they rode the D40LF platform for over twenty years, it seems unlikely. Unless there are serious fundamental problems with the Xcelsior that prompts a full redesign sooner. 

1 hour ago, 8010 said:

Oh yeah I remember reading that. I wonder if West Van is going to modify them to match their other XD40s (I believe the seating arrangements are different, as well as the hubcaps and some other things).

Hubcaps...?

21 hours ago, anonymous guy said:

I noticed that the newer Xcelsiors were lacking touch to open, but didn't know they were retroactively disabling the function. 

Then again, as long as future coaches still arrive with the VAPOR class system, it should be easy to resume the function, correct?

Correct. But Metro has decided it is best to return to operator controlled rear doors.

I can't say I blame them.

13 hours ago, NeOn Bus Rider said:

Guess the mechanic was in a rush to get it on the road that they must have forgotten to turn on the hot water valve.

There are other reasons for "no heat" - typically if its just the hot water valve, the operator can turn it themselves. 

1 hour ago, Swadian said:

Right now all we know is that Greyhound has been losing money and wants to discontinue service. If they wanted to try smaller buses they could be doing it right now rather than applying to discontinue service. So let's see what happens.

The reliability and durability of smaller buses is much worse than a full sized coach. 

I would not consider operating either a cutaway type vehicle or even a sprinter with a trailer on such a long, rugged route. 

Going to a smaller vehicle works okay when you can get a much smaller vehicle on a short route that is able to feed a trunk route... it's not so great on something like this.

I hear both Central and Ryerson are extremely short on 40ft diesels this weekend ... many coaches on the B/O line.

Thus, 3333 is borrowed from Bellevue Base to operate on the 2.

http://pugetsound.onebusaway.org/where/standard/vehicle-status.action?vehicleId=1_3333

No one marked the date so we all missed it ...

January 20, 1978 was the last day of operation for the original trolley network. Forty years ago. The handful of remaining routes that survived the 1963 cutbacks and the even more egregious ones in the early 1970s were converted to diesel so the overhead could be renewed.

Over the course of the next two years all the overhead was pulled down, replaced, and rehung, and all new substations were installed to support the "feederless" overhead system. Service resumed on two routes in 1979, with the remainder of the system coming back online in phases over the next year.

Anyways - 40 years ago, the last Twin Coach pulled in (off of route 2, I believe) around 2AM to Jefferson Garage, ended 38 years of service for that equipment.

As to the driver... she was very junior at the time, but now is top-five in full time seniority. It's hard to believe that the rapidly dwindling operators who started in the 1970s and are driving brand new equipment today, started their careers in vehicles built in 1940.

18 minutes ago, MiWay0310 said:

@northwesterner, continuing our discussion from the DD thread, you mentioned that KCM tried out some different floors between ‘96 and ‘02. Would you happen to know what types they were?

The 3200s and 2300s came with a rubbery rubber floor, and the 4100s had the sandpaper type floors. The 2600s ordered in 2004 went back to RCA rubber flooring due to large number of slips and falls on board with the other flooring types. However, either the institutional memory was too short, or aesthetics took precedence over safety (I'd bet on the former) and the sandpaper types floors returned a few years ago.

13 minutes ago, MiWay0310 said:

I think James May 

 @5:30. 

 

That's good. I'd hadn't seen that before. Thanks.

20 minutes ago, MiWay0310 said:

Fair enough. However, in Mississauga, our last 8 or so years have included sandpaper floors and I’ve never seen people struggle with it. 

I think the case with the MCI would likely have been because there aren’t enough points of drainage, but I think you would know much more. 

On new flyers, there is a slight gradient on the floors to direct water and grit etc to the exits. Additionally, they have these small drainage holes that can be found behind every wheel inside the bus. It’s a small hole through which you can see the ground below.

Of course, you would know much more than I do, but I’m just explaining what I’ve seen and experienced. 

Yeah, its kind of hard to describe it until you see it. I'd use the term "saturated" but the floors aren't like a wet, saturated strip of leather, where the water is actually absorbed, so that's not really the right word.

And its not like there are pools of standing water, either. It just, the floors have achieved a certain wetness that comes from a high volume of passenger tracking the water into the coach, and that water sitting on the surface of the flooring. With RCA rubber, the ridges, while wet, give the water somewhere to go. 

Just now, MiWay0310 said:

I don’t mean physical wood lol. The actual design of the floor. And I’ll bet they took all those things into consideration when designing and producing the floors with the wood design. 

But agreed, the standard rubber floor with drainage channels is always the best. 

I know what you meant. I'm familiar with the flooring choices. 

I have some experience with this. Seattle Metro got away from RCA rubber over 20 years ago. They tried a couple of different materials from 1996-2002, before going back to RCA rubber. The problem with either rubbery type floor or the sandpaper type floor, is that, while they are pretty nonstick when your feet are wet but the floor is mostly dry, they don't have anywhere from the water to go and on a route with a ton of passenger turnover in a heavy rain, the water just pools on the floor, and the floors get slippery.

When I drove for / managed a charter company we had newer MCIs delivered with sandpaper type floor (I'm sorry I don't remember the manufacturer of this flooring - I knew it at one time). On multiple occasions on wet days, I slipped right down the front stairs because there was enough water on the steps to counteract any nonstick effect. I was aware this was a problem and I still slipped and fell. What about the passengers who were less aware of this problem? 

As some of those coaches aged, the flooring wore out, and we decided to replace the steps and entry way flooring with RCA rubber. The shop and drivers found that to be much more satisfactory than the newer flooring options.

On 1/23/2018 at 10:47 AM, MiWay0310 said:

It'll be interesting to see which spec interior they stick with....wood flooring would be a first for Canada...

No, please no.

None of these newer flooring materials does as well from an anti-slip perspective as good old RCA rubber with the grooves in the flooring.

This is especially important in a climate where there is a lot of rain.

16 hours ago, PCC Guy said:

Quick question about this mirror debacle:

Can the issues with visibility be, at least partially, offset by placing a sideways facing mirror on the right hand mirror post, like GO Transit has done with their coaches?

When making a left turn, you're typically not looking to the right... I'd say, no.

5 hours ago, Swadian said:

Why can't BC run on IFTA/IRP?

They do run on IFTA & IRP. 

But if you're a passenger carrier, you need a passenger transport license. If you enter BC and don't have one, you can stop at a port of entry and purchase a temporary one. If you're operating regularly, then you need to do some paperwork annually and pay for the PT license.

2 hours ago, Swadian said:

Um, I have a picture of #86072 with Texas plate K02 7441 and BC plate 811 863. However, it is larger than 5 MB and the forum won't let me upload it.

That's not actually a BC license plate. That is a BC passenger transport license, which is separate from the IRP registration (covered by the Texas plate). 

BC has been phasing out the physical passenger transport plates in favor of decals, though as of a few years ago they were still required for scheduled service.

22 hours ago, Atomic Taco said:

The 4200s were really one of a kind.  The 4100s were too (and maybe even more so, and definitely much less maligned), but they retired quietly with no notice, much to my dismay.

The 4000s slipped away quietly like the 4100s did. 

They weren't exactly a popular coach ... and without some advocating for an official last trip, the shop quietly pulled them from service. 

The last big retirements were for vehicles recognized as legendary by some in the bus community. There was a big turn out for the last trip on a 900, and we also were able to do a last diesel Breda trip in 2004 (?). I don't think at the time we expected the 4200s to last as long as they did, so it was worth the effort to do it again. 

The 1400s, 2000s, and 3000s also all slipped out without a whisper. There was some expectation that the 2000s would continue longer than they did, as Ryerson Base held on to a small fleet after all the 2300s were delivered as they still needed them to make sign-out. They operated the last day of the shake-up, and then they pulled the plug.

15 hours ago, V3112 said:

On which date was the last SGT-310 retired, what was the coach number, and to which route was it assigned for its last trip?

It was Summer 2007 and I think it was coach 4020. It sort of went out, quietly.

1 hour ago, Chinese Daniel said:

Some European Caoch like Neoplan and VDL can get 550HP engine, 455Hp just a joke.

What is the joke?

1 hour ago, JCWhite said:

How was the operational relationship set, if you don't mind me asking?

Was he required to provide all his own insurance, operating authority, CVOR, etc...? or did he operate partially under the company's authority's & licenses?

They had to have their own authority, insurance, inspections, etc.

21 hours ago, MiWay0310 said:

I suppose alot of the parts/maintenance related issues were due to the fact that they were equipped with the OM471? I don't recall any other bus offering that in NA.

Who provides dealer support for that engine? Detroit? If it's Detroit, no problem, dealers are all over the place. If its someone else, than that would be a bigger problem.

There are plenty of decade old Setra S417s out there with Series 60. Generally speaking, the maintenance issues were not with the drivetrain.

47 minutes ago, JCWhite said:

With who you called, were they a small company that could operate fully on their own, or more of a guy & a bus deal?

Guy & a bus deal.

Haven't done it, but had a couple guys in my rolodex at the office who we'd call up when we were short a bus and needed a charter covered. They basically made a living simply covering everyone else in town's work.

Not the way I'd want to make my living, but can be a good way to get a foot in the door in the business as you start to build your own client base.

3 hours ago, Shaun said:

There where a lot of comments on this board with the lack of reliability with the Setra units, and the companies that took them on mostly had them sitting around more than they where on the road. 

I doubt that going out in their own will improve sales but perhaps the European transit busses they have might have a place in the north American market? 

I've been out of the charter bus business for about 3.5 years. 

But when I was in it, we had a competitor who had an all Setra fleet. One day I was over at his office going over a big event where we were subcontracting a bunch of work to him. I asked - why do you buy Setra's and what is your experience with them. 

He said that he bought them because dollar for dollar they were substantially cheaper than a similar age / mileage Prevost or MCI. He said the big problem is that mechanically, the systems are very very different from Prevost or MCI, so what typically happens is an operator is in a pinch for some new equipment, Setra makes them a deal to take 4 or 5 units and they can deliver fast. They either buy them outright or lease them. 

Sidebar - Prevosts and MCIs are more alike than they are different. We had a long time, all MCI fleet, and after a merger, received a handful of XL45s. Our mechanics ordered a manual, put them up on the lift, and got to work as if it was equipment they'd been maintaining for decades. These guys had never worked on LeMirage or X-series Prevosts in their careers, but were able to decipher the systems as if they'd worked on them for years. A few months later our company brought some Setras in for a giant convention from a different division. We not only had a mechanic from that division appear to work on the Setras, but also our company wide maintenance chief. As they were going through some of the basics of the systems with my shop ... there was a lot of "what the heck? why would do that? I have to do what?" type comments. They are very, very different.

So, back to my conversation with the competitor. So a few years go by. The Setra's end up as the orphans of the fleet. A handful of Setras in a yard full of Prevosts or MCIs or even Van Hools. They're very different from the shop to work on, they're very different for the drivers to drive, and ultimately no one really likes them because they are different. They take longer to repair due to lack of familiarity, you may have to wait longer for parts (because you don't stock as much for a smaller fleet) and  as soon as they are able to, these coaches are sold in the secondary market. 

The competitor would scoop them up at a substantially lower capital cost versus a different manufacturer. Because his whole fleet is Setra, his mechanics are experts on how to work on them. His drivers operate nothing but Setras, so they know the intricacies of their quirks. He keeps them on the road, racks up the revenue, and makes smaller financing payments. There are many successful operators of Setras across the US, fleets large and small. But they seem to be unable to penetrate because they are so different from the other vehicles. 

Later, my company was bought out and I spent six months at a subsidiary of another large charter operator in my city. I was tangentially involved with the charter operation where we had a shiny, well maintained, but hodgepodge fleet of mostly Prevosts and VanHools, but also a couple of Setras and MCIs. Once again, the drivers would gladly go between the Prevosts, VanHools, and MCIs, but only a few of them would do anything but grumble heavily when they saw they were assigned a Setra. A couple of them said - they would have no problem driving a Setra if they drove one every day but there is just too much to get used to up front to be bouncing in and out of them on a day to day basis. The shop kept them running well but on occasion would be totally befuddled by something like an overheating issue (which, IIRC, was caused by an air lock in the cooling pipes, which did something crazy like ran the length of the coach from front to back in the luggage racks to feed the heating system up front ... it's been a few years but I remember hearing the explanation and it was something totally wild like that). 

Again, in a fleet with other vehicle types in it, they are the odd ones out. 

Personally, I like how they look, I like the drivers area, visibility and layout, and I like a lot of the features. I've never driven one (I assumed I would when I was at that company that had them, but I ended up leaving for graduate school before it happened) but really would love to spend some time behind the wheel in them to get a real feel for the equipment.

3 hours ago, SounderBruce said:

Note that when you do come down to buy the card, you will need to show proof of age, such as an ID card. I'm not sure if they accept non-American ID cards, though.

In the past, the Puget Sound agencies qualified this fares as being based on age alone... not age and residency as in other jurisdictions...