User talk:Useddenim

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Recent edits

Hi there. There have been a few complaints from other users about some of your recent edits which I would like to acknowledge. I know you are relatively new to editing on the Wiki, so here are a few tips to consider:

  1. Please ensure you follow our Wiki's guidelines and established standards when editing pages, and not copying Wikipedia or coming up with your own unique formatting. Things like removing the capitalization of existing notes and changing the formatting of tables (from white/clear to grey) and the order of columns is not preferred. For more information, please refer to the pages under the Naming Conventions, or check out this example page.
  2. Only upload photos or scans of material that you own the copyright to, or that doesn't have a copyright associated with it. I think those Orion sales brochures fall in this category - and I'm not sure how useful they are to be on the Wiki anyway.
  3. The depictions of rollsigns that you added to multiple pages yesterday are rather big and long, and disrupt the content of the page, especially for mobile users. The coding is also massive - you added nearly 46,000 characters to the Grand River Transit page! While this type of "extra" content may be okay, please put it on a side page (i.e. create a new "Kitchener Transit rollsigns" page or similar) rather than have it on the main system page.

I appreciate your future cooperation on these matters. If you have any questions, please let me know. Thank you! --ArticulatedTalkContrib 20:34, 18 January 2020 (UTC)


  1. Generally what I copy from Wikipedia is material that I myself wrote there. I have to admit that there was still an Ontario Grade 13 when I finished high school, so I'm "old school" when it comes to grammar (and so is Wikipedia), but I'll try to remember your guidelines (as much as it grates on my sensibilities). I'll try to create a template to simplify the table formatting, but would it be possible for someone to create a "cptdb table" style so it could be coded as {| class=cptdbt, similar to {| class=wikitable? Re "order of columns", I presume you are referring to Orion Bus Industries 'Orion I'? If you notice, before I edited the page the two tables were not consistent: Demonstrator and engineering units had the model listed under "Notes", whereas Preserved units already had a separate column. (The reason I moved it is because I felt was the logical hierarchy: in any given year (or month) there are many different model buses produced; within each model there are many units; and then each bus has its own unique serial. However, I'm willing to be convinced that a different order makes more sense.)
  2. I uploaded the Orion brochure because it was already referenced and I thought it would be a good addition, but if it breaks some rules go ahead and remove it. All other images are either my own or ones that are in the public domain, either because of the source or they are sufficiently old that the copyright has expired. (e.g. File:TTC Danforth Division.jpg)
  3. Point taken about the rollsigns: a separate sub-page is a good idea. (What? Doesn't everyone have twin 24" cinema displays on their desk?) Also, my intent is to redo them in standard wiki markup (the one at Arrow Bus Lines (Mississauga, ON)#Destination sign already is) which significantly reduces the character count. (As an aside, they were originally coded to HTML 2 standards—one of the reasons that each table cell is individually formatted—which lacked many of the tools which we now take for granted, and certainly lo-o-ong before wikitext existed.)
Besides 10,000+ photos from the 1970s onwards, I also have a lot of roster information which will fill many gaps. Is it going to offend anyone's sensibilities if I start adding, for example, complete delivery lists to the appropriate bus model pages?
I look forward to your reply, Useddenim (talk) 23:36, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
Follow-up question: I have close to two dozen TTC signs—should they be all one one page, or separated by division? Useddenim (talk) 23:51, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
Update: {{table}} now formats a table (instead of having to explicitly add border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" to the first row), and {{s-table}} does the same thing for a sortable table. Useddenim (talk) 13:42, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
Another question: the naming conventions don't address the issue of a fleet number being reused. For example, take TTC 3579, used for both a 1965 GMDD TDH-5303 and a 2019 Nova Bus LFS HEV. I would suggest that photos of this bus be named File:Toronto Transit Commission 3579-1a.jpg and File:Toronto Transit Commission 3579-1a.jpg etc. to differentiate between the first and second incarnations. Your thoughts? Useddenim (talk) 15:45, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
  1. The example that was given to me with regard to the formatting and structure of tables was actually the SEPTA All-time PCC roster. I appreciate adding the other car deliveries that were missing, but perhaps just a bit of formatting cleanup and converting into a true "retired" roster, since one series of PCCs are still active (although maybe not for long as I understand it) and those are listed in both tables. The Orion I page I am mostly okay with, outside of the missing capitalization in the notes.
  2. Thanks for the explanation and clarification re: photos. Usually I deal with people uploading others' photos without checking copyright or ownership, so I just wanted to confirm that they are okay to be uploaded.
  3. The rollsigns look much better on their own pages, thanks for moving them over. And I see you've been busy adding Categories to them, which might be a side benefit of having their own pages. I will leave the decision to you on whether the TTC rollsigns should be on one page or separate pages per division - however you think the setup of the page(s) ends up working better.
  4. Historical roster information is always appreciated of course. We do have the ongoing VIN Project, which has pages for the serials and VINs for each manufacturer by production year. This might be a better place for the manufacturer's lists than the individual model pages.
    On a side note, I was a little excited to hear you were applying for Wiki Editor status, especially because of your very detailed and complete manufacturer production lists on your website (which tbh I refer to sometimes when making edits on here).
  5. I don't think that we have determined a set protocol for different vehicles sharing the same fleet number. There are very few cases currently on the Wiki where photos of historical vehicles share the same fleet numbers as current vehicles, mostly due to the relatively recent history of digital photography, and the effort involved in scanning old slides and photos. One example I can dig up is between File:Medicine Hat Transit 751-a.jpg and File:Medicine Hat Transit 751-b.jpg, where the uploader simply moved to the next letter suffix. Another example is File:St. Catharines Transit 92-a.jpg and File:St. Catharines Transit 92 (2003)-a.jpg, where the replacement unit was identified by the year. I would prefer not to use the hybrid number/letter suffix you propose - it is difficult enough to have some editors follow the letter suffix requirement, and adding additional rules around it would probably create more confusion than the problems it would solve.
Thanks for your polite responses and questions. I know that a lot of these seem like really small and nitpicky things to worry about, but sometimes it's better to raise things early to avoid having to go back and fix or revert a lot of work. I look forward to continuing to work with you on the Wiki! --ArticulatedTalkContrib 16:30, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
1. Since it seems that the PCC IIs will be withdrawn within a few months (if not weeks or even days), I don't see any point in removing them from the "retired" list just to add them back in again. Besides, I'm nowhere near finished with SEPTA: I intend to create sub-pages for each group which will allow the detailed renumbering to be removed from the summary table. And as soon as I can get to the 250+ Phildelphia PCC slides for scanning (including most of the ex-Toronto cars)…
4. The VIN pages do make sense for post-1980 deliveries, as the (then) new standard pretty much forced manufacturers into a unified serial-numbering sequence. However, prior to that each builder more-or-less started at 001 for each model (Prevost being a notable exception), which is why I think that older models can have the table right on the page — besides, it's not that much more than the (usually incomplete) "Operators" list that's often already there.
I long-ago stopped updating the Angelfire pages (checked the revision dates?) because it became too time-consuming (and the pop-ups were the last straw), whereas CPTDB offers both a wider audience and the support of the entire enthusiast community, so I'm glad to be accepted.
5. I like the (YEAR) suffix for duplicate fleet numbers (although there are a few rare instances where that will break down), so I think I will follow that as a convention.
And finally, I uploaded a few files with typos in their names. How (or to whom) do I draw attention to them to get that fixed? (Or can I just request Filemover privileges for myself?)
Regards, Useddenim (talk) 17:05, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
There are existing serial pages for manufacturers that are underneath the VIN project. Example: Flyer Industries E700A Serials or General Motors New Look Serials. I would prefer that this information stays there.
For requesting photos to be renamed, you can use the Photo Naming on Wiki topic. Put a link to the photo and what it should be renamed to, and one of the administrators/moderators will make the change. There are a few other topics in that subforum for renaming pages or requesting the deletion of photos. --ArticulatedTalkContrib 17:38, 19 January 2020 (UTC)