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Halton Segment of Dundas BRT

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I think this would be a good thread to use when dicussing possibilities of the Dundas BRT through Halton as well as any news or developments to this project.

is there any online report available or news article to see?

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is there any online report available or news article to see?

The only information presently would be through Metrolinx in their projects page.

Would a Dundas BRT extend into Hamilton (Waterdown) as well, or would that require the HSR joining the project?

In Metrolinx's draft proposal, they had this line ending in Waterdown. Then, ending at Brant Street. Now, at Guelph Line. Keep in mind that I've only received these updates from the chairman of BTAC (Burlington Transit Advisory Committee), who has close ties with Metrolinx.

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Where is the eastern end of the corridor? Oakville's Uptown Core or somewhere in Mississauga? Seeing as MT is set to introduce service to Uptown soon, albeit rush hour initially, it'd be interesting who picks up the remaining legs westward. GO could conceivably run a branch of their 407 route down Trafalgar and then west along Dundas all the way to Waterdown and then possibly back to McMaster. Although that would compete with HSR's Waterdown route, which really doesn't connect with other HSR routes.

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Among the HSR's rapid transit plans, dubbed BLAST, one of the rapid transit corridors is going to include a line to Waterdown. This could potentially either connect to or be part of a Dundas BRT. I'm not too sure when that line is set to get started as the HSR is still in the early stages of it's RT plans. I'm also not sure whether such a line would be BRT or LRT. The information is within a document that I read on Hamilton.ca before. If I find it I'll post it up here.

*EDIT

Here is the document that talks about BLAST. It's not the one I remember, but it's from June 2009. The "L-Line" is the one that is proposed to connect the Peel/Halton BRT line with Hamilton. It shows it as a beyone 25 year plan, so it's a ways off but an interesting read none-the-less.

Hamilton Rapid Transit Information

Direct Link to the Presentation

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I have a feeling that the segment of Dundas between the proposed Alton Terminal and Waterdown (to Downtown) would more then likely be the HSR. In the short term, I can see the current 18 stretching to serve Alton once it's built and ready to go. Although, GO could concievably have a bus route to serve Waterdown, perhaps a branch of the 407 service to McMaster.

This might not be on topic regarding rapid transit. Yet, GO Transit is talking about only concentrating on express routes in Durham and not with Hwy. 2. Rather, they'll only use the 401 for their services. It'd mean that some routes that serves Hwy. 2 would be taken over by DRT whereas GO would then be relegated to the main highway, thus being the 401.

For Halton, I wonder if the same could exist? Perhaps the 407 corridor alone is justified as a proper BRT-style corridor. Dundas IMO could use local operators with routes that would use seemless transfers. It would work much better once Presto gets going, for OT and BT in Spring of 2010.

Of course, with transfers, the schedules would have to be kind enough so that each bus from each agency is timed right to arrive at (Uptown Core Terminal) at the exact same time.

(Plus, it'd be nice to see say, a D60LFR joined with an Orion VII and an Invero. :)

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I have a feeling that the segment of Dundas between the proposed Alton Terminal and Waterdown (to Downtown) would more then likely be the HSR. In the short term, I can see the current 18 stretching to serve Alton once it's built and ready to go. Although, GO could concievably have a bus route to serve Waterdown, perhaps a branch of the 407 service to McMaster.

This might not be on topic regarding rapid transit. Yet, GO Transit is talking about only concentrating on express routes in Durham and not with Hwy. 2. Rather, they'll only use the 401 for their services. It'd mean that some routes that serves Hwy. 2 would be taken over by DRT whereas GO would then be relegated to the main highway, thus being the 401.

For Halton, I wonder if the same could exist? Perhaps the 407 corridor alone is justified as a proper BRT-style corridor. Dundas IMO could use local operators with routes that would use seemless transfers. It would work much better once Presto gets going, for OT and BT in Spring of 2010.

Of course, with transfers, the schedules would have to be kind enough so that each bus from each agency is timed right to arrive at (Uptown Core Terminal) at the exact same time.

(Plus, it'd be nice to see say, a D60LFR joined with an Orion VII and an Invero. :)

Could Burlington and Oakville pool resources together like Brampton and YRT did with the 77 HIGHWAY 7 route? That way you wouldn't need to constantly switch buses if one operator or another doesn't run all the way between Alton and Uptown. Mississauga is already operating a lengthy route from Uptown all the way to Islington. Now I don't know how realistic or common a trip from Burlington to say UTM would be, but having to transfer between three vehicles does seem a bit much considering the distance travelled.

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Could Burlington and Oakville pool resources together like Brampton and YRT did with the 77 HIGHWAY 7 route? That way you wouldn't need to constantly switch buses if one operator or another doesn't run all the way between Alton and Uptown. Mississauga is already operating a lengthy route from Uptown all the way to Islington. Now I don't know how realistic or common a trip from Burlington to say UTM would be, but having to transfer between three vehicles does seem a bit much considering the distance travelled.

Hell, I think that'll be a mad(good) idea. But the only thing is, is that in case it gets popular... like really POPULAR... that both cities are gonna have to start looking at 60' buses. As i'm sure of, Burlington Transit doesn't, no?

So if you were to run a BT/YRT highway 7 similarity...

Instead of having :10 :20 :30 etc..

you may have to run say...

:10(60'), :18(40'), :30(60'), :38(40')

Just becuase of the 40 & 60' variations, right? Unless it's like less than 10 minutes service. But i could see a 40' falling behind, dramatically or not if it gets packed and there's delays to get everyone to move back, etc etc etc...

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Hell, I think that'll be a mad(good) idea. But the only thing is, is that in case it gets popular... like really POPULAR... that both cities are gonna have to start looking at 60' buses. As i'm sure of, Burlington Transit doesn't, no?

So if you were to run a BT/YRT highway 7 similarity...

Instead of having :10 :20 :30 etc..

you may have to run say...

:10(60'), :18(40'), :30(60'), :38(40')

Just becuase of the 40 & 60' variations, right? Unless it's like less than 10 minutes service. But i could see a 40' falling behind, dramatically or not if it gets packed and there's delays to get everyone to move back, etc etc etc...

BT and YRT currently don't operate 60' buses on the shared route and it seems to work reasonably well. It's just a matter of getting the right frequency based on demand and availability from each agency. I don't know how much traffic was siphoned off the 77 when VIVA was introduced, but from my experience before it wasn't that bad. I'm not sure if VIVA even operates the articualted Van Hoools on the Orange route which mirrors the 77. Brampton will introduce 60' buses with the start of their new Züm service on the corridor, but then again they've had years to grow the service on the corridor. This new Dundas service is just in its infancy. As demand grows, I'm sure both Burlington and Oakville can foresee and plan for the need for 60' buses in the future should they be needed.

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I'm not sure if VIVA even operates the articualted Van Hoools on the Orange route which mirrors the 77.

Nah if it's not vivaBlue, it's not articulated, lol.

As demand grows, I'm sure both Burlington and Oakville can foresee and plan for the need for 60' buses in the future should they be needed.
. But yes, if MT, OT, BT, & HSR were to go ahead with finding feasibility of aquiring 60' buses. surely they'll approve for bids for them in the future, for sure. Just hopefully as a joint-purchase, all at one time. That's my concern.

Seriously, it would be nice to see another thru-option besides the GO.

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Could Burlington and Oakville pool resources together like Brampton and YRT did with the 77 HIGHWAY 7 route? That way you wouldn't need to constantly switch buses if one operator or another doesn't run all the way between Alton and Uptown. Mississauga is already operating a lengthy route from Uptown all the way to Islington. Now I don't know how realistic or common a trip from Burlington to say UTM would be, but having to transfer between three vehicles does seem a bit much considering the distance travelled.

How does Brampton and YRT share the route? I noticed on the TTC map that it shows both system colours on the map but wasn't sure what that meant. Do they operate the routes on different days or do they operate 'every other bus' on the route? That certainly is an interesting and good idea that Burlington/Oakville/Hamilton could use for the Dundas BRT.

Where is Alton going to be located?

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I'd say that if Burlington operates the Alton/Uptown service, there wouldnt' be any need for OT to get involved. Transferring once from BurT to MT would be the only thing, especially with Presto coming, it'd wouldn't hurt.

In the longterm, the expansion of Dundas to having dedicated lanes for buses (I think that's the plan), there'd be stops at intersections along Walkers, Appleby, Bronte, Third Line, Dorval and others to Uptown. That wouldn't neccessarily be duplication, unless if GO does the exact same thing. GO I think would much rather have it completely express say from Waterdown, Alton, Uptown, South Common/Square One and Islington.

If the local services from Burlington and Mississauga uses this potential as local service, these services can stay without GO pushing them all out.

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How does Brampton and YRT share the route? I noticed on the TTC map that it shows both system colours on the map but wasn't sure what that meant. Do they operate the routes on different days or do they operate 'every other bus' on the route? That certainly is an interesting and good idea that Burlington/Oakville/Hamilton could use for the Dundas BRT.

They both run buses at the same time and the split the profit 50/50. It's run every other bus.

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But yes, if MT, OT, BT, & HSR were to go ahead with finding feasibility of aquiring 60' buses. surely they'll approve for bids for them in the future, for sure. Just hopefully as a joint-purchase, all at one time. That's my concern.

Seriously, it would be nice to see another thru-option besides the GO.

A few years back there was some sort of program involving Burlington, Oakville, Mississauga and Brampton, called GTA West...(something or another) that was supposed to help coordinate purchases/orders, service and scheduling which most likely has been taken over by Metrolinx. This may have been one of the few projects to come into fruition.

The new MT 101 will run non-stop from Uptown to Winston Churchill before making express stops through Mississauga including one at UTM to Islington Stn. I wonder how long before the route runs all-day 7 days a week? Plus, does OT subsidize MT in any way for providing the service to Uptown?

As for the idea of OT and BT running between Alton and Uptown, who's more likely to provide the service based on fleet availability?

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A longtime lurker, but...

http://www.insidehalton.com/news/article/1...opic-of-meeting

Bus rapid transit topic of meeting

Halton Region is holding a drop-in public information centre about a Dundas Street bus rapid transit corridor from Brant Street to Trafalgar Road on Thursday, June 23 from 6:30-8:30 p.m. at Halton Region headquarters, north/south auditoriums, 1151 Bronte Rd. in Oakville.

Halton Region has initiated a corridor study to consider bus rapid transit within Burlington and Oakville along Dundas Street.

The study provides an opportunity to develop improvements along Dundas Street and other transit supportive corridors so that the people living or working in Halton Region have a better alternative to automobile travel.

The study is also a way to enhance Dundas Street, making it an attractive corridor for pedestrians, cyclists and integrating new land uses with existing heritage and natural features.

The information centre will provide an opportunity for residents, businesses and other interested individuals to review and have input into the study process.

Residents who are unable to attend the public information centre and wish to obtain more information or provide written comments, can send their concerns to: Jeffrey Reid, Project Manager, Halton Region, 1151 Bronte Rd., Oakville, ON, L6M 3L1, call 905-825-6000, ext. 7920, fax 905-847-2192 or e-mail jeffrey.reid@halton.ca.

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I live in Oakville and am a cross GTA user of transit. Sad to say that the BRT here is a confusing project funded by multiple sources all to bid on ridership and toll percentages. Overall it is a good idea, but with Oakville Transit's poor service and connections due to a lack of ridership, the BRT will only be of real viable use by people who live on, or near, Dundas (5) Rd. . Unless Oakville and aswell Burlington are to upgrade or integrate completely with more service, the BRT will only be as effiecnt as the services it connects with. Also, there is always the issue of fare integration and maintaining the system. Metrolinx® is the main funder and possible user of the public transitway, in which fares could be as high as GO Transit® tarrif if controled by Metroinx®, and will not be an affoardable method for interchange between Peel and Halton by RT method. What is needed is a fully unified service across the whole BRT with a single fare (example $5 for BRT and all ajoining local buses) . A fare structure like Ottawa, just local fares are controlled by local service, and BRT is an additional premium (example local+BRT 3.25+1.75) Without a proper integration this BRT will not only be non-viable, but also a mess for Dundas with its lanes and construction for buses that only have an expected 9 boards p/h rate. In otherwords, not to effiecnt, or resonable for automobile users which could cause back lash against the BRT.

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I can understand where you're coming from on this. However, I can see that both Burlington and Oakvlile...for as logn as it will continue to be...being second-last (Oakville) and dead-last (Burlington) on being funded for transit, I highly doubt that either city would want to take on the costs or the operating costs for running BRT-styled buses between the two systems.

Even if the project is approved (which McGuinty hasn't approved the $8.4 million deal for TTC's LRTs), I highly doubt they would approve (Metrolinx) the Dundas BRT project for a long, long, time. And it wouldn't help matters with this minority government almost as a point of collapse from the budget just barely going to pass tomorrow.

On a related note. Oakville's Route 5 - Dundas. Given that most of that route travels along Dundas. It has been awhile since I have seen teh area between Trafalgar and Third Line. But are any of those areas along Dundas have actual bus stops? I know that here in Burlington, when the 15-Walkers travelled along Dundas between Walkers & Appleby Lines, there were no bus stops, as the City of Burlington deemed Dundas to be a highway which had along with it safety concerns for any of Burlington's buses to pick up or to drop off passengers at intersections (which now, most of them have 4-way traffic signals, too). Is Oakville the same way? Granted, I haven't ridden the 5, but I doubt it's even getting by with limited number of stops on "Highway 5".

(I could be way wrong here that there aren't stops along Dundas at all; but am surprised that the 5-Dundas for Oakville Transit has maintained its same service frequency level for awhile.

And back to the safety issue with regards to BRT services. For the entire length of the Halton segment, there would have to be well-designed areas that have BRT-stop shelters, similar to the ones Brampton uses for their ZUM services, sidewalks on both sides of the road, mixed use developments on both sides of the road to support heavy ridership demands for a BRT corridor such as Dundas. But for now, it's still being deemed a highway in west Halton and am not too sure about Oakville. Either way, I don't see this project seeing any light of day in my lifetime as long as funding is very scarce.

My apologies for me rambling a bit, but hopefully I had addressed all of my points and all of you understand. :)

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Yea there are stops at every intersection between Uptown Core terminal and Colonel William on both sides of the road. Even where thier are no cross walks :$ But yea the 5 is a good route but it has a LOW ridership, mainly because there isnt enough completed developement on Dundas and not a high enough frequency. So yea sadly the BRT project will be a bust and I hope it wont happen so that they can start fresh and rethink this. Till that happens atleast im always open to rapid commuter rail into the city via (200m south parrellel to) Burnhamthorpe with stations out to Brantford. Yea Lakeshore North :D

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Granted, I haven't ridden the 5, but I doubt it's even getting by with limited number of stops on "Highway 5".

(I could be way wrong here that there aren't stops along Dundas at all; but am surprised that the 5-Dundas for Oakville Transit has maintained its same service frequency level for awhile.

While Dundas St in Oakville is Halton Regional Road 5, it is not "Highway 5" - it has not been a Provincial highway for many years.

Do not be surprised that OT Route 5 "has maintained its same frequency level for awhile". It has the right level of service for the demand that exists today (40 mins Mon-Sat daytime and 30 mins evenings and Sunday, at all times with one bus). It is unlikely that anything will change until at least early 2015, when the first phase of Oakville Hospital opens at Dundas and Third Line.

Let's remember that OT runs at less than 40% cost recovery from the farebox - the rest is on the backs of the property tax payers. Per capita ridership is very low at approx 15.5 riders annually - although still higher than Burlington. While it is recognized that one can take the "Field of Dreams" approach of build it and they will come, the politicians of the auto-centred communities of Burlington and Oakville will continue to constrain transit funding so long as the big cheques are being written to make up the funding gap, if it is anticipated there is no short to medium term prospect for higher revenue to cost ratios.

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I was given a message from the reps from Halton Region that are overseeing the Dundas BRT project study that the next Public Infromation Centre will be held at the Halton Regional Centre on September 13th from 6:30pm-8:30pm. The main focus of this PIC is to get comments regarding the proposals of having HOV lanes on the curb sides of Dundas once it is fully reconstructed and expanded from Brant Street to Trafalgar Road to six lanes. The curb side lanes are to be proposed not just for HOV purposes, but for transit use, too.

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