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Via’s webpage for The Canadian now has a detailed description of the modified on-board service that will be provided when the train resumes. 

https://www.viarail.ca/en/explore-our-destinations/trains/rockies-and-pacific/toronto-vancouver-canadian

Copied and pasted here for posterity:

Quote

 

Changes to the service and the experience on board:

  • Both Sleeper Plus and Economy classes will be offered, but Prestige class will not be available.
  • Passengers will be required to remain in their cabin and assigned seat.
  • Passengers will be required to wear their mask at all times in stations and on board the trains, except when in an enclosed space such as a cabin or shower facility, or temporarily when eating or drinking (passengers are required to put their mask back on immediately afterwards).
  • The Dining car will be open to Sleeper Plus passengers for breakfast and dinner. A reservation system will be in place to allow and control access. Lunch will be provided in-cabin only and will have to be eaten in cabins. The menu and bar service have been modified.
  • A new at-seat food cart service will be offered in Economy class. The menu and bar service have been modified.
  • Unfortunately, the Park car and Skyline car (lounge/dome cars) will not be accessible to any passengers.
  • Activities and entertainment (including music) have been cancelled.
  • Sleeper Plus class passengers will be able to access to the common showers by reserving a time slot. Showers will be sanitized after each use.

 

 

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3 hours ago, InfiNorth said:

I would say raise fares for sleeper, drop them for economy. No people who use VIA as vital transportation are hopping in a Prestige cabin to get from Biggar to Edmonton. VIA should be making first-class passengers pay for the economy seating. It's what airlines do to cover their overhead.

With the Ren cars being retired, that means additional trains are required for the ocean. 

This is likely why there aren't enough trains for the Canadian. 

The corridor HEP fleet is being rebuilt so they can be used on the ocean. 

LRC cars are finished, and cannot be rebuilt. Although I wonder if the rebuilt ones are in good enough shape to stick around or are they all the same? 

What's really needed is funding for more Siemens cars or viewliner cars for the ocean. I only mention these two since they are in production.

A solution is needed soon because the upgrades to the legacy fleet was found to be not worthwhile. 

At least there will be a surplus of F40's displaced from the corridor when the corridor fleet goes into service. Not sure how much life if left in them thou. 

If I'm not mistaken the P42's will be retired. 

Hopefully while we have a liberal government in power we can get something accomplished, I don't see a concervatives government support putting more money into our national railway service.

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46 minutes ago, Shaun said:

If I'm not mistaken the P42's will be retired. 

Does this mean we're going to see Genesis on long-distance trains? 

2 hours ago, downbeat said:
  • Unfortunately, the Park car and Skyline car (lounge/dome cars) will not be accessible to any passengers.

Yikes. I thought the Skeena was still running with the Park Car, though?

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Just now, InfiNorth said:

Does this mean we're going to see Genesis on long-distance trains? 

That would be nice to see. Maybe they can also invest in some SuperLiner coaches for the Canadian or Ocean.

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22 minutes ago, InfiNorth said:

Does this mean we're going to see Genesis on long-distance trains? 

The P42 engines are nearly 20 years old; and are coming due for a rebuild soon. They will likely be retired once the Corridor trainsets enter service, as there will be a need for fewer conventional locomotives, and the F40PH engines are more recently rebuilt and are already set up for long-distance service.

Amtrak is currently looking at replacing their P42 engines, so that should be an indication that VIA's units also aren't likely to be around much longer.

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3 hours ago, InfiNorth said:

Yikes. I thought the Skeena was still running with the Park Car, though?

The Skeena normally runs with a Park car, but I don't know if they have been this fall.  With no Prestige service and the Skyline cars not accessible to passengers, I suspect the Skyline and Park cars won't be in The Canadian's consist ... it'll be super weird seeing it with no domes. 

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23 hours ago, Chris W said:

Lowering the fares and making an effort to increase the frequency would be a good start. The Canadian is an essential pillar. Mind you VIA's insistence on raising fares to that of an airline was a giant misstep.

I was told VIA Rail pays municipal or property taxes 

unless VIA Rail comes back to the CP Rail route that was used pre 1990 to service, Thunder Bay, Kenora, Brandon, Regina, Medicine Hat, Calgary and Banff, then maybe there is some equipment left over after the Siemens train sets are placed into service 

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11 hours ago, Articulated said:

The P42 engines are nearly 20 years old; and are coming due for a rebuild soon. They will likely be retired once the Corridor trainsets enter service, as there will be a need for fewer conventional locomotives, and the F40PH engines are more recently rebuilt and are already set up for long-distance service.

Amtrak is currently looking at replacing their P42 engines, so that should be an indication that VIA's units also aren't likely to be around much longer.

They have frame issues and are difficult to repair, so the plan is to retire them when the Siemens fleet is in service. Unless something changes. 

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I mean it would help if each municipality that wants the train to stop in their town/city could put forward funds to help pay for the train.

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22 hours ago, Articulated said:

The P42 engines are nearly 20 years old; and are coming due for a rebuild soon. They will likely be retired once the Corridor trainsets enter service, as there will be a need for fewer conventional locomotives, and the F40PH engines are more recently rebuilt and are already set up for long-distance service.

Amtrak is currently looking at replacing their P42 engines, so that should be an indication that VIA's units also aren't likely to be around much longer.

Why is it that so much modern equipment - REN, P42, LRC - is incapable of holding up to time at all? This is seen in road vehicles as well - people talk about retiring decade-old Novas while the same system system continues to power along using thirty-year-old D40LFs.

As a different question, what power would VIA Rail be likely to invest in to replace the F40PH used on long-distance stuff? Would they be likely to use the Charger as Amtrak has? That is a look I just can't picture at the head of the Canadian.

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22 minutes ago, InfiNorth said:

Why is it that so much modern equipment - REN, P42, LRC - is incapable of holding up to time at all? This is seen in road vehicles as well - people talk about retiring decade-old Novas while the same system system continues to power along using thirty-year-old D40LFs.

As a different question, what power would VIA Rail be likely to invest in to replace the F40PH used on long-distance stuff? Would they be likely to use the Charger as Amtrak has? That is a look I just can't picture at the head of the Canadian.

The answer is simple. Those Budd cars are made from stainless steel frames and bodies, making them virtually indestructible.  The LRC's have aluminum frames which are difficult to repair once the corrosion has started and need special expertise to repair them. This was started but was abandoned due to cost. 

The Ren cars are built with carbon steel and where not built to withstand Canadian winters. 

The blue cars where also made from carbon steel and where subject to corrosion issues. 

If you notice that in the 90's we had a lot of issues with carbon steel buses. We now have buses with stainless steel frames which are longer lasting and less prone to rust. But it takes special tools to repair stainless steel once the frames have cracks in them. 

The RTS' was an exception to the long lasting part even though they had stainless steel frames. 

The new Siemens fleet have stainless steel sides with ani corrosion frames (according to their website).  So hopefully they will last longer than LRC cars. 

Surprisingly the TEMPO cars where also built of Aluminum but are still in service today, likely because they didn't see as much service as LRC cars. 

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20 hours ago, cprted said:

The Skeena normally runs with a Park car, but I don't know if they have been this fall.  With no Prestige service and the Skyline cars not accessible to passengers, I suspect the Skyline and Park cars won't be in The Canadian's consist ... it'll be super weird seeing it with no domes. 

The Hudson Bay has been running with Skyline cars for the last year or so. The Skyline cars are still in the consists as there is no galleys on these HEP-1 coaches for the snack kart service. So I assume that might be the case for the economy passengers aboard the Canadian (unless VIA decides to run the Panorama cars to Winnipeg as those have galleys). I am thinking that there would be one Skyline and one diner on the Canadian consist with no Park Car. I could be wrong but that seems the most logical. We'll see what happens.

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1 hour ago, Shaun said:

Surprisingly the TEMPO cars where also built of Aluminum but are still in service today, likely because they didn't see as much service as LRC cars. 

Ah yes, TEMPO, possibly the ugliest passenger rail cars ever to grace Canadian rails. At least they looked good with the Rio Grande yellow on them. Where are they now that the Ski Train is either nonexistent or Amtrak?

1 hour ago, Viafreak said:

The Skyline cars are still in the consists as there is no galleys on these HEP-1 coaches for the snack kart service. So I assume that might be the case for the economy passengers aboard the Canadian (unless VIA decides to run the Panorama cars to Winnipeg as those have galleys). I am thinking that there would be one Skyline and one diner on the Canadian consist with no Park Car. I could be wrong but that seems the most logical. We'll see what happens.

That cannot be efficient, though I'll bet the crew is thrilled to have a Skyline car to themselves instead of their usual economy "office" made of two opposing seats and a table in the same car as the passengers.

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19 minutes ago, InfiNorth said:

Ah yes, TEMPO, possibly the ugliest passenger rail cars ever to grace Canadian rails. At least they looked good with the Rio Grande yellow on them. Where are they now that the Ski Train is either nonexistent or Amtrak?

That cannot be efficient, though I'll bet the crew is thrilled to have a Skyline car to themselves instead of their usual economy "office" made of two opposing seats and a table in the same car as the passengers.

The tempo cars are now owned by CN again on the Agawa Canyon Railway. But it's not running this year due to Covid19.

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13 hours ago, InfiNorth said:

Why is it that so much modern equipment - REN, P42, LRC - is incapable of holding up to time at all? This is seen in road vehicles as well - people talk about retiring decade-old Novas while the same system system continues to power along using thirty-year-old D40LFs.

As a different question, what power would VIA Rail be likely to invest in to replace the F40PH used on long-distance stuff? Would they be likely to use the Charger as Amtrak has? That is a look I just can't picture at the head of the Canadian.

Since Shaun, as usual, doesn't know what he's talking about....

 

Renaissance cars - I'm sure you know about their history, so I won't bother repeating it here. But the long and the short of it is that the equipment was built to a different standard than is used to here, and so has always been felt to be the "odd duck". Truth be told, the structural issues facing the Ren fleet is the same as that which the Blue-and-Yellow fleet faced for much of its service (and for which many of the HEP2 cars are also susceptible), but the difference is that because they use "non-standard" parts and are built in a "non-standard" way that they have always been a much more difficult thing to fix. That's why VIA has put money into maintaining the HEP2 cars, and not the Ren.

 

P42s - The locos were designed to be sturdy and reliable - and have been for most of their lives on VIA - but age has caught up to them. In terms of parts, the same applies to the P42s as did the Ren fleet. They use trucks and gearboxes purpose-built for their design, rather than warmed-over freight loco designs such as those on the F40s. Because of that, parts will become much harder to find once Amtrak retires all of theirs (and parts are already more expensive to source than those for the F40s). And while they were designed by Amtrak for long-distance service, that's not the service that VIA uses them in - and so they won't be needed once the Siemens fleet arrives.

 

LRCs - Have you totally forgotten that they are almost 40 years old? Considering that they are built entirely of aluminum, that they have lasted this long is quite impressive. (Most other "aluminum" railcars are built with a steel structure upon which the aluminum body is fastened - the BiLevels use this design.) When the cars were designed and built, the longevity of aluminum structures in the railroad world was still a bit of an unknown. And the 25 or so cars that were thoroughly rebuilt by IRSI will be capable of lasting another 10 or 15, as the work done to them rivaled building entirely new structures.

 

There are lots of situations of rail equipment built "in the olden times" having very short lifespans, so to claim that this is somehow a modern thing is, frankly, crap. There are BiLevel cars over 40 years old. The oldest Amfleets are 47. AEM-7s lasted almost 40 years. Need I go on?

 

As for future motive power, that's dependent on them getting the funding to replace the 25 or 30 F40s that will be remaining once the Siemens sets are in service, no? As for the options, well, look at the North American market and see what's available - and there are your options.

 

Dan

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5 hours ago, smallspy said:

Since Shaun, as usual, doesn't know what he's talking about....

Have you totally forgotten

so to claim that this is somehow a modern thing is, frankly, crap.

Need I go on?

Look, I appreciate how much knowledge you contribute, but it's a little bit frustrating how you approach it. We are all here to learn. If someone doesn't know what they are talking about, share the knowledge without belittling them. That's not just my degree in education talking. That's me asking you to consider how you got to where you are with the level of knowledge you have - at some point, you, too, had no idea what you were talking about. Help others along.

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A user on Reddit shared this with me, showing the refurbed Corridor HEP stuff that's painted in REN livery at the Vancouver maintenance centre. Anyone know why VIA would have corridor equipment on the West Coast? @Urban Sky you don't happen to know why these things would be out here? I was under the impression that these cars with the new paint scheme were refurbished with Corridor-centric interiors, not for long-distance service.

 

VIA.jpg

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1 hour ago, InfiNorth said:

A user on Reddit shared this with me, showing the refurbed Corridor HEP stuff that's painted in REN livery at the Vancouver maintenance centre. Anyone know why VIA would have corridor equipment on the West Coast? @Urban Sky you don't happen to know why these things would be out here? I was under the impression that these cars with the new paint scheme were refurbished with Corridor-centric interiors, not for long-distance service.

 

VIA.jpg

That's not corridor equipment, that is a rebuilt HEP-1 coach. Its either 8102 or 8109. They came through Winnipeg in mid-September. As to the baggage car, there is a few of those in western Canada with a couple based in Winnipeg for northern Manitoba services.

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1 minute ago, Viafreak said:

That's not corridor equipment, that is a rebuilt HEP-1 coach. Its either 8102 or 8109. They came through Winnipeg in mid-September.

Does that mean there was a deadheading VIA Rail train that went all the way across the country? That would have been pretty bizarre. Does this mean we can look forward to all the Canadian equipment being repainted like this, or are we going to see a return to the looks of the early 80s where you could have three different liveries on one consist? I really appreciated the general visual cohesion of the stainless sets used on the Canadian compared to other North American long-distance trains. Is that soon to be a thing of the past, or are these cars only out here temporarily?

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1 hour ago, InfiNorth said:

Does that mean there was a deadheading VIA Rail train that went all the way across the country? That would have been pretty bizarre. Does this mean we can look forward to all the Canadian equipment being repainted like this, or are we going to see a return to the looks of the early 80s where you could have three different liveries on one consist? I really appreciated the general visual cohesion of the stainless sets used on the Canadian compared to other North American long-distance trains. Is that soon to be a thing of the past, or are these cars only out here temporarily?

There were at least three deadheading VIA trains back in the spring that transported the long-distance equipment from Vancouver and Winnipeg out to Montreal, where they could get their maintenance done. Now that service on the Canadian is close to resuming, they would need to transport those cars back out west, in another series of non-revenue moves, in order to get the cars in position for when service resumes.

As for multiple liveries, the Canadian has not been running with a single livery for a number of years now, since the Prestige class cars have a different livery (dark grey stripe instead of blue). The F40PH locomotives also do not match the stainless steel and blue livery of the coaches, and HEP2 coaches with blue and yellow stripes occasionally substitute for long-distance coaches.

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On 11/11/2020 at 2:02 PM, Shaun said:

Unfortunately, the journalists of rail magazines tend to be just as cynical and catastrophizing as most self-declared "rail advocates" here in Canada are, which is why I would urge you to forget about the article and its (in many cases: baseless) speculation, and to instead refer to the relevant sections of the primary source on which the whole "story" was based:

Quote

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

[...]

Corporate Orientations

[...]

5. Explore reliable service delivery options and growth opportunities

[...]

Develop options to offset the service delivery issues and financial difficulties to the service brought on by poor OTP and schedule changes due to OTP

The Canadian, VIA Rail’s flagship long distance train, has experienced significant challenges due to unsustainable OTP issues, infrastructure work by host railways, schedule and frequency changes, equipment challenges and limitations, as well as service delivery issues.

[...]

2. OPERATING ENVIRONMENT

2.1 External Environment

[...]

2.1.5 The Canadian and the Host Railway

The Canadian, VIA Rail’s flagship long distance train, has experienced significant challenges as a result of unsustainable OTP issues, equipment challenges and limitations as well as service delivery issues due to the hybrid nature of the service. After four years of robust revenue growth, fueled by the introduction of our high-end Prestige Class, VIA Rail has had to modify the schedule, adding over ten hours, in order to help mitigate OTP. As well, as a result of the infrastructure owner’s work programs, VIA Rail has been limited to operating two end-to-end journeys, which, coupled with three significant schedule changes within a year, has led to significant financial difficulties. VIA Rail will therefore explore strategic changes noted earlier within the Executive Summary. The 2019 partial suspension of one peak-season frequency on the Canadian between Toronto and Edmonton was the result of a solution with CN to the infrastructure capacity shortage which exists in Western Canada, the increasing rail traffic congestion (increasing grain and oil shipments) and the major infrastructure work programs that CN’s instituting, primarily between Winnipeg and Edmonton, to increase rail traffic capacity.

[...]

3. OBJECTIVES, ACTIVITIES, RISKS, EXPECTED RESULTS, AND PERFORMANCE INDICATORS

[...]

3.6 Exploring service delivery options and growth opportunities.

VIA Rail has identified one service delivery option for Long Distance services in the east and is exploring options for two other services.

Service Delivery:

Long Distance, Eastern Services: A solution has been developed to ensure service continuity of the Ocean after November 1, 2020, the date that VIA Rail will lose access to the Halterm rail loop in Halifax.

The revised train consist will have two F40 locomotives coupled back to back. The locomotives will swap ends of the train by way of an adjoining parallel track, effectively changing the heading without turning the train. The use of Renaissance cars continues the availability of both the accessible coach and the sleeper with an accessible cabin, ensuring a high level of accessibility.

Service Delivery – Exploratory Options

• Long Distance, the Canadian, and other services in Western Canada require measures to revitalize it and move away from a business model that, predominantly due to host railway actions, is no longer sustainable.

• South Western Ontario (SWO), a rapidly growing area that is already currently underserved, where passenger rail is a natural transportation solution.

No authority is sought for the latter two options at this time.

Expected Results

VIA Rail will continue to explore service delivery options for these services and will submit detailed business cases.

 

3.6.1 Ensure viability of the Canadian and other services in Western Canada

VIA Rail believes that in the long term, the service delivery and business model of the Canadian, its flagship long distance train, as it is today, is not sustainable. The existing service cannot adequately serve either shorter distance travellers or the tourism market. A new solution to maintain and preserve services and provide Canadians mobility is required.

The combination of poor OTP with delays of up to 43 hours, together with the significant increases to the schedule of ten hours to mitigate this poor OTP, have halted four years of revenue growth while simultaneously increase operating costs.

Further compounding the significant financial difficulties, VIA Rail is now limited to operating two end-to-end journeys as a result of CN’s work programs.

From a high of 112,000 passengers in 2012, ridership on the Canadian, VIA Rail’s flagship long distance train had steadily declined to a low of 93,000 in 2016. In 2017, despite a continuous decline in OTP (from 54% in 2016 to 8% in 2017), ridership had recovered to 105,145, notably due the popularity of the Canada 150 Youth Passes, but declined to 82,846 in 2018, a new low. Poor OTP has been a long-term recurring problem, in 2009, VIA Rail needed to add one additional night to the total journey, thus allowing more schedule “float” to ensure that connections were met. This “float” was obviously depleted by CN.

Reinstatement of the partially suspended peak frequency of the Canadian

As noted in previous Corporate Plans, VIA Rail extended the schedule of the Canadian in 2009 to add “float” and one additional night to the total journey, to ensure that connections were met. Prior to 2009, OTP declined from 72% in 2002 to 23% in 2008. Following the 2009 schedule extension OTP rebounded to 84% but deteriorate in the long term to an OTP of 8% in 2017, with delays of up to 43 hours.

The schedule was again extended in mid-2018 and again in 2019 to alleviate the terrible and untenable OTP. The total schedule increase of the two extensions is approximately 22 hours, or close to a 50% increase in total trip time since 2008. The current scheduled trip time is four days and one hour. Total year 2019 OTP is 55.9%.

There is an additional element to these schedule extensions that is often overlooked; reduced efficiency, increased operating cost and equipment utilization pressures. The 2009 schedule increase required that VIA Rail create one additional train consist, with an increase from three to four consists needed to operate the three peak round trips.

The current post 2019 schedule requires five train consists to operate the three round trip Toronto – Vancouver frequencies of the Canadian.

As noted earlier within this Corporate Plan, VIA Rail has developed a solution to ensure service continuity for the Ocean, after November 1, 2020, the date that VIA Rail will lose access to the Halterm rail loop in Halifax. This solution however necessitates that HEP cars, the car type used on the Canadian, are cascaded to the Ocean. This combined with the lengthened schedules of the Canadian, leaves VIA Rail without enough cars to assemble a fifth train consist to reinstate the partially suspended peak-season frequency on the Canadian between Toronto and Edmonton. Therefore, at this time, we do not foresee the possibility of reinstating the partially suspended frequency.

[...]

4. FINANCIAL OVERVIEW

[...]

4.1 Overview of the 2020-2024 Financial Plan

[...]

4.1.5 Capital Investment Plan and Ongoing Capital

[...]

Non-Corridor fleet renewal program

Fleet operating in non-Corridor services include 197 HEP, 6 RDC and 38 Renaissance cars, as well as 28 F40 Locomotives.

VIA Rail recognizes that despite the inherent quality of construction and intrinsic longevity of the stainless steel used, it is no longer reasonable to expect an extended service life from the Budd manufactured rolling stock equipment (HEP cars) that is approaching or has exceeded 70 years of age.

At some point the effectiveness, usefulness and maintenance costs of any product will reach a point where replacement must be considered and unfortunately this also includes the HEP cars.

The locomotives, although they meet requirements for the year they were manufactured, and thus operate within acceptable limits, do not meet latest environmental requirements for emissions and it is not possible to upgrade them.

To that end, VIA Rail will explore the replacement of its Long-Distance and Regional fleet.

Therefore, VIA Rail requires $14.6 million per year to maintain the current fleet in a state of good repair until a renewal program is approved.

As you see above, all the Plan lays out is that the current business model of the Canadian reaches its limit under the current operating environment and that alternative operating concepts for the same services (i.e. the Canadian and the Ocean) are currently developed.

 

On 11/11/2020 at 2:20 PM, InfiNorth said:

Before anything else, how does VIA Rail manage to operate their summer Vancouver-Edmonton train if they don't have enough rolling stock for a third Canadian consist? Do they operate one of the trains on a Toronto-Vancouver-Edmonton-Vancouver-Toronto rotation?

  • The 72 hour schedule in place between 1997 and 2008 allowed for 3 departures per week to be operated with only 3 trainsets: departing TRTO on the morning of TuThSa, arriving VCVR on the morning of Day 4 [FrSuTu], departing the same evening and returning in TRTO on the evening of Day 7 [MoWeFr].
  • The 84 hour schedule in place between 2008 and 2019 required a fourth trainset to operate the same 3 departures per week: departing VCVR on the evening of TuFrSu, arriving in TRTO on the morning of Day 5 [SaTuTh], departing the same evening and returning in VCVR on the morning of Day 9 [WeSaMo].
  • The 96 hour schedule in place since May 2019 only allowed to operate 2 departures per week for the entire TRTO-to-VCVR route, with three sets operating the entire route (departing TRTO on the morning of WeSu, arriving in VCVR on the morning of Day 5 [SuTh], departing the next afternoon [MoFr] and returning to TRTO on the afternoon of Day 10 [FrTu]), while a fourth set operates once per week between Vancouver and Edmonton (leaving VCVR on Tuesday afternoon, arriving Edmonton Wednesday evening, departing again in the night to Friday and returning to Vancouver on Saturday morning).

 

On 11/11/2020 at 3:30 PM, InfiNorth said:

I would say raise fares for sleeper, drop them for economy. No people who use VIA as vital transportation are hopping in a Prestige cabin to get from Biggar to Edmonton. VIA should be making first-class passengers pay for the economy seating. It's what airlines do to cover their overhead.

Have you ever checked how Sleeper Plus and especially Prestige fares compare to Economy fares? A bed in Prestige Class can easily cost 10 times as much as having a seat in Economy (even twice that, if travelling alone in your Prestige cabin):

image.thumb.png.dfdac4a254d4f1aba0c085fd637a4565.png

Source: Seat61.com

Edited by Urban Sky
Added response to question about number of consists on the Canadian
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18 hours ago, InfiNorth said:

Look, I appreciate how much knowledge you contribute, but it's a little bit frustrating how you approach it. We are all here to learn. If someone doesn't know what they are talking about, share the knowledge without belittling them. That's not just my degree in education talking. That's me asking you to consider how you got to where you are with the level of knowledge you have - at some point, you, too, had no idea what you were talking about. Help others along.

With the exception of my remark to Shaun...

 

I'm not trying to be sarcastic in my response - but rather to try and save words. A lot of the history has been well repeated many times, so there's no point in rehashing it. Try and go back and read it without pretense, and you may see that it isn't the mean-spirited reply that you want to believe it is.

 

Dan

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On 11/12/2020 at 5:07 PM, InfiNorth said:

Why is it that so much modern equipment - REN, P42, LRC - is incapable of holding up to time at all? This is seen in road vehicles as well - people talk about retiring decade-old Novas while the same system system continues to power along using thirty-year-old D40LFs.

Where's that?

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14 minutes ago, M. Parsons said:

Where's that?

You talking about the D40LFs? Victoria. People in the BC Transit Victoria thread talk about the Novas approaching their end-of-life after a dozen years while the Novas was well beyond it. That's all. I digress.

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