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7 hours ago, InfiNorth said:

Did the Limoilou stop have any kind of a building or was it just a trackside flag stop? The reason I consider it to have "replaced" Gare du Palais is because it was otherwise the closest station to Quebec City proper. 

No building. Stations with services were moved West as Gary said.

Québec Lower Town (or Plywood City, colloquially named after its ubiquitous abandoned buildings) was derelict, you wouldn't want to hang around the Palais station nor Limoilou yards just across the river. Pretty much everybody was happy about the trains leaving, as they used to go through dense, poor areas (almost literally through houses). Slow-running convoys would cause frustration and delays for automobiles, yes, but also for most local and suburban transit buses (Dorchester street was and is still the main artery for bus lines pointing north and east), and pedestrians whose neighbourhoods would be split in two by passing trains.

The future was in the suburbs, and both CP and CN tried to catch up with that. Really what "replaced" the then-dilapidated Palais station was certainly not a trackside stop in a yard in Limoilou, rather one modern and one not-so-modern station way out of downtown. The Saint-Sacrement station was deemed to be temporary upon its opening, with the promise of an eventual high speed, high frequency rail line that would justify a new, permanent terminal — downtown or elsewhere.

Picture is from Roland Marcoux in Le Soleil, August 12th 1976.

Screenshot_2020-10-15-23-39-03.jpeg

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44 minutes ago, webfil said:

The future was in the suburbs, and both CP and CN tried to catch up with that.

What a backwards point of view and I'm glad we've moved away from that. Thanks for the cool photo. I have never seen any photos depicting lower Quebec as being a slum as you described - where can I learn more?

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10 hours ago, InfiNorth said:

What a backwards point of view and I'm glad we've moved away from that.

We're not so far. Jacques Gréber produced a modernist master plan for Ottawa, advising to move the station out of downtown. He proposed the same for Québec City, which never occured. Below is the 1954 Gréber Master plan, with proposed routings for new roads and rail. Note the location for the new station : corner of present-day Hamel (R-138) and Laurentienne (A-973), where sits today your typical post-WWII outdated shopping centre, Place Fleur-de-Lys ― surpassed by edge cities and power centres.

Have we really "moved away from that" ? I wouldn't say that. Yes, the election of Jean-Paul L'Allier catalysed lower town revival, and the emergence of Via Rail eased the planification for a Palais station reopening; Québec city is pretty much a closed case ― or is it? Train de Charlevoix terminus is at Montmorency Falls, waaay outside downtown, with lots of parking available.

However, in the light of some recent Via Rail survey about the HFR scenarios, most of which implying some sort of shuttling from downtown locations to stations along the line (no specific city mentionned), I would not assert with certainty that "we've moved away from that". Add to the mix a pandemics that introduced generalized telecommuting, desire for access to a certain conception of nature and space, ubiquitous automovity eased by public- or individually-funded parameters (roads, parking, low interest rates, tax incentives for luxury automobiles, negative-equity loans, etc.) and you may come to the conclusion that we are not living post-modernism, rather hyper-modernism, with exacerbated tendencies observed in the Gréber Era.

https://www.quebecurbain.qc.ca/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Enl%C3%A8vement-du-rail-projet-1-Greber-1954.jpg

10 hours ago, InfiNorth said:

I have never seen any photos depicting lower Quebec as being a slum as you described - where can I learn more?

Try a search with your favorite engine, with keywords "Basse-Ville", "Québec" and some decade, say "1970".

Here's the evolution of the block that now sees L'Allier gardens.

Here is Saint-Joseph Street in the 70's. (Réjean Lemoyne)

6820_st-roch_21.jpg

The old port was not the nice place with squares and fountains and boarwalks and tourist-y shops it is today. Observe the housing through industries and wharehouses. (BAnQ via Québec Urbain)

image.thumb.png.4ba5c81bd0d272f0aac5428f2c54a83e.png

Arago Street in 1967. (BAnQ via Québec Urbain)

Taudis-rue-Arago-quartier-St-Sauveur-1967.thumb.jpg.bc3a02a6c3585b13d00ec73b9cb9b975.jpg

If you can read French, a friend of mine wrote a thesis about how Gréber's technoscientific approach shaped the future of Québec city, especially regarding the slum problems in lower town

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On 10/14/2020 at 7:09 PM, InfiNorth said:

That is the downtown CN station, and that bus is likely a connecting bus to Kelowna (just a guess). Once the Super Continental was running and transcontinental trains no longer called at the CN station downtown, it saw no passenger trains as the only ones passing through downtown would be the Canadian and Dominion, both of which would stop at Kamloops CP. Thus it would be illogical for the bus to go to a station with no passenger services - though this shot looks like it's from the late 40s. Do you know a year on this?

That's a great photo!  Even though transcontinental trains stopped servicing the downtown CN station by the early 50s, the Kamloops-Vernon-Kelowna train stopped there until it was discontinued in 1963.  The only bus service advertised in my 1957 CN timetable in the area has a twice daily Kelowna to Penticton run, but nothing out of Kamloops at that time (at least nothing advertised in the timetable). I'd certainly be interested to know what this bus service was, local within Kamloops or if it connected to elsewhere. 

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6 hours ago, webfil said:

Train de Charlevoix terminus is at Montmorency Falls, waaay outside downtown, with lots of parking available.

I can address that one - it has nothing to do with suburbanism. I actually spoke with a high-level manager at the Montmorency station when I visited (didn't take the train, just made a pilgrimage to the station). Apparently CN refuses to even consider allowing them to run to Gare du Palais over their tracks. Straight from the horse's mouth.

Not sure why you needed to throw the sass around at me, I know nothing about Quebec City's history, I was asking to learn from someone who clearly has a decent perspective of it. Speaking as a teacher this website has a horrible tendency to turn noses up at people who are trying to broaden their knowledge.

Thanks for the links and photos! I'll try to make my way through the thesis, though my French will definitely be stretched to the limits of its abilities. Looking at the area around Gare du Palais, wow, I can really agree that that is a miserable looking area. It reminds me of what the CN Station in Vancouver (now Pacific Central) looked like pre-Expo 86 - a major train station in the middle of a filthy industrial wasteland, not at all inviting or convenient to passengers. I can't imagine Ottawa suffered the same problem, considering that Ottawa's downtown station was truly in the heart of the city, not even on the edge of the downtown. Now that "suburban" station they built in Ottawa is surrounded by miserable, anti-pedestrian industry. Interesting how that happened... history repeats itself.

1 hour ago, cprted said:

That's a great photo!  Even though transcontinental trains stopped servicing the downtown CN station by the early 50s, the Kamloops-Vernon-Kelowna train stopped there until it was discontinued in 1963.  The only bus service advertised in my 1957 CN timetable in the area has a daily Kelowna to Penticton run, but nothing out of Kamloops at that time (at least nothing advertised in the timetable). I'd certainly be interested to know what this bus service was, local within Kamloops or if it connected to elsewhere. 

Did the Kamloops-Vernon-Kelowna train originate from Kamloops Jct. or Kamloops? If it were the latter, then perhaps you are right, it was was a transfer bus.

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3 hours ago, InfiNorth said:

Did the Kamloops-Vernon-Kelowna train originate from Kamloops Jct. or Kamloops? If it were the latter, then perhaps you are right, it was was a transfer bus.

Started at Kamloops Jct, then to Kamloops and onto CP line heading east out of Kamloops to Campbell Creek where the CN Okanagan Sub started. 

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When Gare du Palais closed the only passenger trains passing thru Limoilou were the runs to La Malbaie/Clermont and Riviere-a-Pierre/Chicoutimi. (and they had been discontinued before Palais reopened) The other CN route trains from Montreal, Senneterre/Cochrane and Richmond came in from the west for about 2 miles on the CPR from Cadorna (roughly St. Sacrement) to Gare du Palais.

A block or so east of Gare du Palais was the Quebec Railway Light & Power Station. An Electric Interurban Railway to Ste. Anne de Beaupre & St. Joachim that lasted 'till 1959.

50497658611_03ecd0e896_c.jpg

 

Here's some pictures of the west alignment at Gare du Palais. (First photo is the train to Senneterre/Cochrane in Nov 1974)

 

49721760692_fc188be025_c.jpg

50497658421_8f51bda597_c.jpg

 

The CPR Dayliner via Trois-Riviere to Montreal in 1976:

 

49694836818_dcafbfd4cb_c.jpg

 

With the rebuilding of Gare du Palais.....the CPR west approach tracks and yard were abandoned and the track alignment turned about 90 deg so all trains would now approach from the north across the St. Charles River.

 

49682561701_6030ee31bf_o.jpg

49682601078_7e6a1ae3ec_c.jpg[/url]

 

And looking at this map......

https://goo.gl/maps/uqw8V4T2DN1BDbj5A

..........the old CPR route continues east from St. Sacrement then swings south under Boul Charest to enter the Tunnel down to Wolfe's Cove along the St. Lawrence River. CP transatlantic Empress Liners once docked here and CP would run connecting 'Steamship Special' trains between here and Montreal.

 

 

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On 10/16/2020 at 10:04 AM, webfil said:

Try a search with your favorite engine, with keywords "Basse-Ville", "Québec" and some decade, say "1970".

Here's the evolution of the block that now sees L'Allier gardens.

Thanks for this......interesting!

Regarding that photo above I posted of the train to Senneterre/Cochrane in 1974. I was connecting from the 'Scotian' that arrived at Levis at noon and had about a 10 hour wait for that Cochrane train. I took the ferry across and spent the day just walking around the city. I remember walking through the St. Roch area and a street roofed over for several blocks to create the 'pedestrian mall'. I also had a tour of the Chateau Frontenac and the Historic Fortifications. Fascinating!  I was young and finally got to use my high school French..... and remember getting along pretty good!

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On 10/17/2020 at 9:21 AM, ghYHZ said:

..........the old CPR route continues east from St. Sacrement then swings south under Boul Charest to enter the Tunnel down to Wolfe's Cove along the St. Lawrence River. CP transatlantic Empress Liners once docked here and CP would run connecting 'Steamship Special' trains between here and Montreal.

In the beginning of the 20th century, most railways would converge onto what is now the old port, with various trackage rights : Intercolonial, Grand Trunk, Québec Central, Canadian Northern, Québec & Lake Saint John, Québec, Montomrency & Charlevoix, National Transcontinental (see map). Before the Québec Bridge would be built and most passenger activities moved to the new Union (actual Palais) and Lévis stations, National Transcontinental would have its terminal passenger station right on the docks. The building still exists, and now serves as Desgagnés Headquarters, right off the Lévis ferry. I remember it having the CN logo on it, so I assume it remained property of the railway for some time until maybe the late 90's.

v5691.thumb.jpg.d89e54fea4d441d496cf470d507dbc91.jpg image.thumb.png.9b338d2b7286c28ab38b297fc5e35ee3.png

Canadian Pacific along with Québec and Lake St. John would have their terminal on the actual Palais station site.

Gare du Palais (Québec) - Wikiwand

QMCR steam line would share a terminal (and some tracks) with suburban tramway QRL&P, right across the street from the CP station. It did not join Union station.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Quebec_R.L._and_P._Co._Station%2C_Quebec.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Quebec_Montmorency_%26_Charlevoix_Railway_Gare_1956_N003340.jpg

On 10/17/2020 at 10:02 AM, ghYHZ said:

 remember walking through the St. Roch area and a street roofed over for several blocks to create the 'pedestrian mall'.

The mall was a desperate effort to counter the decay of the neighbourhood in 1974 ― without much success. It was removed in the early 2000's, happily for some, sadly for others. As it was a public space (not a private shopping mall), it used to be a shelter for less fortunate people ― not necessarily homeless, but people that would not afford to hang out in a coffee shop, for example. From what I can remember, most shops were empty anyways. The street is not utterly thriving nowadays, but has some hip to it.

1984-10-09-59577-1200x675.thumb.jpg.6a5addb7a01bc131186974fa765d6432.jpg image.thumb.png.9a1633fe1c902aa6866691513bf83143.png

 

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15 hours ago, webfil said:

In the beginning of the 20th century, most railway would converge onto what is now the old port, with various trackage rights : Intercolonial, Grand Trunk, Québec Central, Canadian Northern, Québec & Lake Saint John, Québec, Montomrency & Charlevoix, National Transcontinental (see map). Before the Québec Bridge would be built and most passenger activities moved to the new Union (actual Palais) and Lévis stations, National Transcontinental would have its terminal right on the docks. The building still exists, and now serves as Desgagnés Headquarters, right off the Lévis ferry. I remember it having the CN logo on it, so I assume it remained property of the railway for some time until maybe the late 90's.

 

This is great stuff.....thanks so much!

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22 minutes ago, cprted said:

The Canadian is resuming a weekly service from Vancouver to Winnipeg starting Dec 11.

Any idea why not Vancouver? I understand that Ontario's numbers aren't looking great, but neither are British Columbia's at this point. 

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46 minutes ago, Shaun said:

You mean why not to Toronto? Likely due to preventing people from travelling across country to spread the virus. 

And yet travelling from Vancouver to Winnipeg is okay? Just seems kind of odd. The only thing I can think of is that some people on the prairies do actually use the Canadian as intercity transportation. Any word on the Ocean yet?

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On 10/20/2020 at 7:22 PM, InfiNorth said:

And yet travelling from Vancouver to Winnipeg is okay? Just seems kind of odd. The only thing I can think of is that some people on the prairies do actually use the Canadian as intercity transportation. Any word on the Ocean yet?

Manitoba has restrictions on travelers from east of Terrace Bay, Ontario for quarantine. In VIA's case, they would be only allowed to provide services to Longlac. Both Winnipeg and Vancouver have maintenance centres that are capable of working on the Canadian. The Winnipeg Maintenance Centre (WMC) is located about 1.5 miles southwest (timetable west) of the station and is the maintenance base for the Hudson Bay trainsets. A little over eight years ago, I was aboard the Canadian when we had to get maintenance done on our train. As to the schedule, I was told that its the previous schedule. I am not sure if that's the one from January or not. If its the one from January, the prairie version of the Canadian will depart Winnipeg at 21:30 and arrive at 22:00.

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Is there a third track being built at Kingston VIA station? There is gravel and ballast filled past the 2nd platform which was marshland before and space for another platform? 

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https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/via-rail-to-require-passengers-without-masks-to-provide-medical-proof-of-exemption-1.5153173

This is the first I've heard of any company anywhere requiring actual medical proof of exemption from people who refuse to wear masks. Bold move from them, and while I personally think it's a good idea I know there will be loads of people screaming about their rights being stripped away. 

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57 minutes ago, InfiNorth said:

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/via-rail-to-require-passengers-without-masks-to-provide-medical-proof-of-exemption-1.5153173

This is the first I've heard of any company anywhere requiring actual medical proof of exemption from people who refuse to wear masks. Bold move from them, and while I personally think it's a good idea I know there will be loads of people screaming about their rights being stripped away. 

Important in this context: only the presence of a medical reason for not being able to wear a mask needs to be attested, while the nature of that reason does not need to be specified...

https://mobile.twitter.com/VIA_Rail/status/1319744867392770048

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20 hours ago, InfiNorth said:

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/via-rail-to-require-passengers-without-masks-to-provide-medical-proof-of-exemption-1.5153173

This is the first I've heard of any company anywhere requiring actual medical proof of exemption from people who refuse to wear masks. Bold move from them, and while I personally think it's a good idea I know there will be loads of people screaming about their rights being stripped away. 

Several airlines, including Westjet, have instituted similar rules over the past little while.

 

I can't help but wonder if this rule was as a result of one particular pest on Facebook.....

 

Dan

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2 hours ago, smallspy said:

I can't help but wonder if this rule was as a result of one particular pest on Facebook....

I hadn't heard about anything... one particularly vocal part of the community that would be looking for ways around these things? 

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