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34 minutes ago, Bus_Medic said:

It’s got couplers at both ends, doesn’t it?

HEP connections, too.

 

Dan

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9 minutes ago, smallspy said:

HEP connections, too.

 

Dan

So they are going to figure out how to modify the Skyline car and park car observation seats so that they can swivel to face forward (or backwards whatever you want to call it).

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45 minutes ago, Shaun said:

So they are going to figure out how to modify the Skyline car and park car observation seats so that they can swivel to face forward (or backwards whatever you want to call it).

....or how about they don’t, and the passengers just learn to deal.

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If they keep the 'Park Car'....the rounded end observation would be facing into the locomotive in one direction.

A 'Skyline Dome' could be used instead......and the existing seats replaced with reversible type seats (flip over backs) similar to these:

https://soul-amp.blogspot.com/2007/11/metra-train-reversible-chairs.html

 

This is how CP Rail did it on the Atlantic Limited. The Skyline Dome was not turned in Saint John, New Brunswick.

49942037428_b9b4c89748_c.jpg

49942849817_b238624380_c.jpg

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7 hours ago, Bus_Medic said:

It’s got couplers at both ends, doesn’t it?

It's actually a good point: Economy cars are generally supposed to be at the front of a train, as it's closer to the locomotives and thus noisier. If you pull in with a configuration of LOCO-ECON-SLEEP-PARK, without turning around you leave with a configuration of LOCO-PARK-SLEEP-ECON. In the case that they do a crazy switcheroo, that will leave them with two rather massive problems: 

1. Economy Renaissance Cars are single-directional. Their seats can't be flipped liked on (non-refurbished) HEP equipment. Maybe they won't care that much, but I'm sure passengers won't be too pleased riding over a thousand kilometres backwards. 

2. The Park Car certainly has couplers on both ends, but only has a bellowed door at one end. Without the ability to turn the Park Car around, they will (I assume) be forced into the situation I described above, putting it at the front of the train. You can't stick a backwards Park Car in the middle of a consist, the door at the end of the bullet lounge is exclusively a service door. If they have the ability to turn small cars around, then they might be able to retain the park car. I know they used a turntable on the short-lived Sydney railcruise train. No turntable within Halifax, though.

EDIT: I see someone has already suggested a Skyline car, which would be lovely. Still looking for a solution for the directionality of the Renaissance cars. 

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Perhaps now might be a good time to remind ourselves of the financial reality the federal government now finds itself in? 
All of this speculation is an answer to a question nobody’s asking. Leave the park cars off if it’s such a calamity.

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16 minutes ago, Bus_Medic said:

Perhaps now might be a good time to remind ourselves of the financial reality the federal government now finds itself in? 
All of this speculation is an answer to a question nobody’s asking. Leave the park cars off if it’s such a calamity.

I think we're just trying to have a constructive discussion, looking at the options ahead of us. That's the point of a forum. 

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17 minutes ago, Bus_Medic said:

Perhaps now might be a good time to remind ourselves of the financial reality the federal government now finds itself in? 
All of this speculation is an answer to a question nobody’s asking. Leave the park cars off if it’s such a calamity.

But people pay for sleeper class so that they can enjoy the park car. I guess they could convert more skyline cars to executive class to make up for it.

Does anyone know what the occupancy rate is on those? 

I guess it wouldn't be worth it to replace the seats in the rent cars to be able to swivel to a

But I have to say, they said the same thing about the HEPII cars but they are currently going through rebuild. 

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13 hours ago, InfiNorth said:

It's actually a good point: Economy cars are generally supposed to be at the front of a train, as it's closer to the locomotives and thus noisier. If you pull in with a configuration of LOCO-ECON-SLEEP-PARK, without turning around you leave with a configuration of LOCO-PARK-SLEEP-ECON. In the case that they do a crazy switcheroo, that will leave them with two rather massive problems: 

1. Economy Renaissance Cars are single-directional. Their seats can't be flipped liked on (non-refurbished) HEP equipment. Maybe they won't care that much, but I'm sure passengers won't be too pleased riding over a thousand kilometres backwards. 

The intent it seems is to have reversible seats. Here's a quote in the Moncton Times & Transcript from a VIA Press Release:

”The solution involves using a 'hybrid' train that includes locomotives equipped with features allowing for back-to-back operations, so the trains don't need to turn around”

”Passenger cars used will have seats that can turn to align with the direction of travel to “ensure optimal comfort for passengers”

When I rode the Ocean in March just before the service was cancelled they were already using a 'Hybrid' type train on one of the two consists (the other was all Ren except for the Park).  It had the Budd Stainless Steel coaches which have reversible seats. There were no Renaissance coaches and in fact the only seats on the train that weren't reversible were the 24 dome seats in the Park Car and the 'Cabins for One' (Duplex Roomettes) in the Chateau Sleepers. There were also a couple of Renaissance Sleepers being used and those Bedrooms are already set up so half the rooms face the direction of travel and half face away.

 

11 hours ago, Bus_Medic said:

Perhaps now might be a good time to remind ourselves of the financial reality the federal government now finds itself in? 
All of this speculation is an answer to a question nobody’s asking. Leave the park cars off if it’s such a calamity.

Yes....just leave the Park Car off but if there is any intent to market the Ocean to tourists other than a point to point coach/sleeper corridor type train....it needs a 'Signature' or 'Feature' type car and this could be accomplished (as noted above) by replacing the existing seating with 24 reversible seats in a Skyline Dome. A Skyline could also provide meal service in the off-season instead of a full diner.....just like the CP Rail Skyline did for years on the Atlantic Limited. The kitchen is still there.

>>>>>>>

The Ocean was inaugurated in 1904 and for it's first 80 years it only had a run-of-the-mill Lounge Car. The first Domes or Park Cars weren't used until 1984.....after VIA obtained them from CP Rail.

For a couple of years in the '60s....the Ocean did have a 'feature' type car.....an exMilwaukee Road 'Skyvtop' but they didn't last long in service. Here they are in the dead-line at Halifax awaiting disposal in the '70s:

49945113107_b683c797c1_c.jpg

49944811661_ba8064eb2d_c.jpg

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Gary has is right. The train configuration itself will be a "hybrid".

 

Sleepers, lounges and the diner will continue to be Renaissance equipment, along with the baggage/transition cars. The coaches will be Budd cars - which have reverse-able seats.

 

Admittedly, what I've been told doesn't seem to say anything about a dome, but I don't necessarily see that as a deal-breaker yet.

 

Dan

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So will the REN coach cars be used elsewhere? Possibly be useful in the corridor? But then you would need an additional transition coach right? 

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2 minutes ago, Shaun said:

So will the REN coach cars be used elsewhere? Possibly be useful in the corridor? But then you would need an additional transition coach right? 

No

No

No

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21 minutes ago, Shaun said:

So will the REN coach cars be used elsewhere? Possibly be useful in the corridor? But then you would need an additional transition coach right? 

They where on the corridor a long time ago (10+ years ago I think was the last time I saw them) because I remember picking up my grandmother at the Oshawa Station about 12-13 years ago and the train was REN coaches and a P42 locomotive 

The only part of the corridor it operates on is between Ottawa and Quebec City

image.thumb.jpeg.5ed3787cb68d1ade8e6e64fda291c7bb.jpeg
here’s a picture of REN coaches at the Toronto Maintenance Facility (Undated off of Wikipedia) 

 

I wouldn’t be surprised if they come back 

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6 hours ago, Urban Sky said:

No

No

No

Is this an emotional reaction, objective or both? Because I can agree with any of those perspectives.

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I thought the RENs were pretty close to end-of-life and due to be retired next year anyway … so that would explain the No's!

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30 minutes ago, downbeat said:

I thought the RENs were pretty close to end-of-life and due to be retired next year anyway … so that would explain the No's!

They are the youngest cars in the fleet

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26 minutes ago, John Oke said:

They are the youngest cars in the fleet

And the most troublesome, hence why they're retiring so early.

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22 minutes ago, John Oke said:

They are the youngest cars in the fleet

True — but also in the worst condition.

From Via's 2017-2021 Corporate Plan:

https://www.viarail.ca/sites/all/files/media/pdfs/About_VIA/our-company/corporate-plan/CorporatePlan_2017_2021.pdf

Quote

Renaissance – Corridor portion
 There are 30 Renaissance cars assigned to the Corridor, representing the remaining 18.8% of the Corridor fleet;
 They were originally manufactured in the UK in 1995-96, with final assembly of a portion of the fleet performed in Canada between 2001 and 2003;
 They have the lowest reliability of the Corridor fleet;
 Their mild steel car bodies are corroding at the roof, side sills and posts. The full extent of the corrosion is unknown without a major overhaul (i.e. “opening” vehicle);
 A major investment to the Corridor Renaissance fleet would be needed to improve their reliability and reduce their burdensome maintenance costs and to extend their useful life and marketability;
 A minimum overhaul/repair is needed to resolve HVAC problems, interior/exterior roof leaks, corrosion, door/step operation, public address systems, and interior conditions;
 Due to their European design, sourcing of spare parts is an issue; and
 Remaining service life of these train sets without major investment is less than 10 years.

And from the 2016-2020 Corporate plan:

https://www.viarail.ca/sites/all/files/media/pdfs/About_VIA/our-company/corporate-plan/Summary of the 2016-2020 Corporate Plan.pdf

Quote

Both LRC (aluminium body-shell) and Renaissance (poor winter capabilities) coaches have structural related life expectancy issues.

 

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23 minutes ago, Chris W said:

And the most troublesome, hence why they're retiring so early.

Back in February I caught the 10:15am train from Ottawa to Montreal on a Sunday morning. This was a Renaissance consist. The 11:20am departure on the same route was an LRC consist. The LRC consist that left Ottawa at 11:20 got to Montréal about an hour earlier than my train did!

Apparently, a warning light kept coming on, forcing the engineers to have to stop the train and go inspect one of the cars. After two full stops and as many inspections, we were authorized to continue to Gare Centrale, at reduced speed...

From this moment I decided that the solo seat on the Renaissance cars — which I quite enjoy and find to be quite comfortable, for a 2 or 3-hour ride — is not worth it if I can ride on LRC cars instead.

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10 hours ago, Chris_the_traveller said:

Back in February I caught the 10:15am train from Ottawa to Montreal on a Sunday morning. This was a Renaissance consist. The 11:20am departure on the same route was an LRC consist. The LRC consist that left Ottawa at 11:20 got to Montréal about an hour earlier than my train did!

Apparently, a warning light kept coming on, forcing the engineers to have to stop the train and go inspect one of the cars. After two full stops and as many inspections, we were authorized to continue to Gare Centrale, at reduced speed...

From this moment I decided that the solo seat on the Renaissance cars — which I quite enjoy and find to be quite comfortable, for a 2 or 3-hour ride — is not worth it if I can ride on LRC cars instead.

The report was written in 2016, and it states:

Renaissance – Corridor portion · There are 30 Renaissance Cars assigned to the Corridor, representing the remaining 19% of the Corridor fleet; · They were originally manufactured in the UK in 1995-96, with final assembly of a portion of the fleet performed in Canada between 2001 and 2003; · They have the lowest reliability of the Corridor fleet; · Their mild steel car bodies are corroding at the roof, side sills and posts. The full extent of the corrosion is unknown without a major overhaul (i.e. “opening” vehicle); · A major investment to the Corridor Renaissance fleet would be needed to improve their reliability and reduce their burdensome maintenance costs and to extend their useful life and marketability; SUMMARY OF THE 2016-2020 CORPORATE PLAN / 50 · A minimum overhaul/repair is needed to resolve HVAC problems, interior/exterior roof leaks, corrosion, door/step operation, public address systems and interior conditions; · Due to their European design, sourcing of spare parts is an issue; and · Remaining service life of these train sets without major investment is less than 10 years.

So that would put them in service until 2026. 

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17 hours ago, InfiNorth said:

Is this an emotional reaction, objective or both? Because I can agree with any of those perspectives.

You may want to read the footer of his message to get a bit more perspective on his response.

 

Dan

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19 hours ago, InfiNorth said:

Is this an emotional reaction, objective or both? Because I can agree with any of those perspectives.

I think the first two answers have been sufficiently by now (but let me add that the Renaissance cars used on the Ocean are modified in a way that they can’t be used on the Corridor without modifying them again), so let me explain the last answer:

You only need a baggage transition car if you mix Renaissance cars with other fleet types. For a pure Renaissance Corridor train, you only need a Baggage car, a Business car, a Service car, an Accessible Coach and whatever number of Coaches you want to add...

 

2 hours ago, Shaun said:

The report was written in 2016, and it states:

“[...]

Remaining service life of these train sets without major investment is less than 10 years.“

So that would put them in service until 2026. 

Wrong, that means they will need to be retired before 2026. The RFQ for the new fleet specified that the new fleet must be delivered between 2022 and 2024 (and you can bet that the measly 2 Renaissance trainsets will be among the first to get replaced), so better plan your farewell trip with them once Corridor service ramps up enough that they return to service (all 10 Corridor trains currently offered as an “Essential Service” are LRCs), as they won’t last much longer...:

Quote

• the first trainset will be available for winter corridor testing in or before October 2021; and


• the first trainset will be available to begin revenue service at or before the end of second quarter of 2022 and the last trainset will be accepted in or before 2024.

Edited by Urban Sky
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7 hours ago, smallspy said:

You may want to read the footer of his message to get a bit more perspective on his response.

I'm fully aware of who Urban Sky is. 

7 hours ago, Urban Sky said:

I think the first two answers have been sufficiently by now

It was a joke, because the Renaissance cars aren't particularly loved, and your response had a pretty blunt and almost comical tone. Sorry for the confusion. This forum doesn't seem to like humour very much.

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Alright so if the new corridor fleet is delivered on time, and all LRC and Ren cars are retired, does that leave enough cars for the trains outside of the corridor without an order for additional cars?

Are there enough HEP I and II cars for the Canadian, Ocean and the trains in Quebec?

 

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4 hours ago, Shaun said:

Alright so if the new corridor fleet is delivered on time, and all LRC and Ren cars are retired, does that leave enough cars for the trains outside of the corridor without an order for additional cars?

Are there enough HEP I and II cars for the Canadian, Ocean and the trains in Quebec?

 

Whereas the retirement of the Renaissance fleet will reduce the available fleet for the Ocean, the delivery of the new fleet will free up HEP I and II cars currently assigned to the Corridor...

Edited by Urban Sky
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